The DAC Scam - Almost everyone believes the hype

I've come to the conclusion whomever believes most things ASR says doesn't have a very resolving system.  Midfi at best.  It's not the dac chip mainly it's the overall implementation. I've owned several dacs over the years and you get what you pay for typically. 

I've come to the conclusion whomever believes most things ASR says doesn't have a very resolving system.

I've come to the conclusion whomever believes most things ASR says doesn't have ears.

I've come to the conclusion whomever believes most things ASR says doesn't have a very resolving system. Midfi at best. It's not the dac chip mainly it's the overall implementation. I've owned several dacs over the years and you get what you pay for typicallyrights.

You have all rights to justify your dac investments with any arguments that you like. At the same time, try to avoid public statements on how good or bad are equipment and ears of others. 

@jnovak

It amazes me that there is so much talk on all topics audio. The BEST thing any of us could say is "Come over and listen to my system and decide for yourself". I live one hour north of Philadelphia. Anyone who wants to is welcome to stop by and listen! Who else is in?

If I were in your neck of the woods and not Oregon, I would stop by. I agree, it’s better to listen to music. There is a lot of talk, and how anyone has the patience to listen to those 15 or 30 minute YouTubes whose content could be read in a few minutes if the presenters bothered to write it down -- well, that’s beyond me.

@facten 

So out of curiosity why then do you have a $4K+ Holo May  DAC?

I was curious to find out if "better" DACs sound that much better. Rather than walking incrementally through various iterations, I rather go in all the way. I went by the YouTube review of the May by GoldenSound, whom I liked as he was the one who took MQA apart. -- I then was curious how a cheaper DAC, mainly for my secondary computer desktop system, compared to the much more pricey one. To be sure to hear differences (if there are any) go for an extreme comparison. Alas, not much difference.

@oberoniaomnia  no appreciable discernable difference but you still kept the May

@facten Yes, sunk cost idea. But I will not look for anything else for a long time.

I still want to compare it to the Topping D50 gen 1, and also the Dragonfly USB DACs. When I purchased first the red then black then cobalt versions, I heard slight differences through EarPods. Again, was curious, and they are relatively cheap. However, when the DF fails, I will get something more reasonably priced.

I hear plenty of clear improvements with tubes, phono stages, speakers, etc. Just DACs, it is not better/worse, just oh-so-slightly different. 

I did a a factory tour of MSB in Northern California in January.Their Principal engineer mentioned that the implementation of the chips and isolation of the signal is paramount in a elegant DAC configuration. So much more goes into a a great sounding DAC than just the chip selected. I found that synchronizing my clock with the DAC, transport, and DDC took my digital sound to a new level.

I found that synchronizing my clock with the DAC, transport, and DDC took my digital sound to a new level

This can be interesting. Could you be more specific on which kind of improvements you noticed with either the clock synchronization or your DDC, which particular synchronizer and DDC are you using?

This is spot on. I bought over 20 different DAC units and every time I get a new one I tested against the old one and I always sit there and think to myself why did I do this.? It sounds so close to the old one I should’ve just Kept the old one. I’ve had as many as four of them hooked up at once level match them all and did a blind test. I failed miserably I could not tell the difference. Put your money into amplification or speakers don’t waste it on a DAC once you hit the $2000 level Nothing changes

Well @raysmtb1, many have been there but won’t want to admit it. A famous US manufacturer of DACs said something similar to you that DACS have more often minor differences (to paraphrase) but the better route is to invest in amplification. That’s been my experience but not with a long line of DACs to offer comparison. A long line of listening to varied (mostly tube) amplifiers over years, yes.

Most know the tech options although there’s an emerging vein with DSD upsampling with PS Audio and Cen Grand DSDDAC plus other big boys like Playback Design. (Had one of the original top Sony SACD players back in the day too.)

Then there’s the software upsampling with HQPlayer being really powerful plus the internal options built in Roon and Audirvana. With Audirvana Studio in my system, the upsampling option is quite nice up to 256 YMMV.

The AKM chips fancy upsampling to one bit DSD, outputs to a lovely bluish light display on an RME ADI-2. Many have experienced that upside with Holo DACs, Harmony, etc. and note HQPlayer elevates them to a significantly better sound.

Unsure on what you have tested but I’d love to hear a DSD upsampling shoot out between the RME ADI-2 FS, the Holo May and the Harmony. That would be fun.

(One additional note on the RME ADI-2 FS. When playing DSD Direct you need an external preamp to control the volume as volume control is lost when you make the DSD Direct setting. Found there was a benefit that way for the RME not doing that double duty in my system too. Completely different capability all around.) 

@raysmtb1 "don’t waste it on a DAC once you hit the $2000 level Nothing changes"

Can you put some context around your statement - what specific DACs under $2K have you firsthand compared to what specific DACs above $2K that led you to this definitive conclusion?

@facten I’ll do a list below Of under 4K and over 4K and then maybe that’ll help you.

Under 4K

Blue node, caimbridge, ockto 8, Lumin, SMSL 10,mcintosh D1 & D2, Sabaj, Space tech lab, Mytek, benchmark, I know I’m missing a few I can’t remember them

Over 4K

Bricasti, Meitner, Berkeley, DCS Bartók ,  i’m forgetting at least one more.

So I think I said in my post that I had had 20 different DACs. I’ve only listed 16 here but I know I’m forgetting a couple so I’m pretty close to 20 different units. The best units that punched above their way was the Space Tech Lab TMS-1000. I still have this unit and have ordered a new unit that will be here in a month or so. The unit I have is the beginner unit which retail for about $3200 and I’ve stepped it up to a newer unit that’s approximately $4800 With eight times over sampling. We’ll see how that goes if it’s as good as the TMS 1000 I’ll be amazed.
 

The other unit that was my favorite out of the above 4K was the Berkeley Alpha two without MQA. It was the most musical out of any of the units over 4K. All the other units were amazingly crisp and tight. They were so clean I almost had a hard time listening to them.

So that is my very expensive journey. I hope some of you guys out there are able to learn a little bit at my expense. If you have any questions let me know. I will say that the best DAC for the money is definitely the Space Tech Labs. Everyone should look into their stuff. Let me first say that the website needs a lot of work. It’s just the opposite of all of the other DAC manufacturers. It is at least 20 years old and looks like it. They must spend all of their time building amazing DACs instead of being worried about the website. Most manufacturers have a modern very splash website but their DACs are average. Space tech is the opposite. I had to take the back off of my unit to replace a card for an update and I was amazed at how it was built. It’s all hand assembled point to point wiring. Al, the owner explained to me that wherever they can they try not to use any printed circuit boards. They do everything they can with tubes. I’m not sure what that last sentence means because I’m not an electronics with but The DACs that they make are the most musical, analog sounding that I’ve ever heard. When you call them up to order one Al answers the phone and basically helps you figure out what you would like to achieve. Al is a Japanese American and at times I had a hard time understanding him but eventually you get it all worked out. This is starting to sound like an ad but it’s not. Out of all of those DACs at the beginning of my posts space tech labs is by far the winner out of the ones below 4K and the ones above 4K. If you’re in the market give them a try. If you don’t like the unit which I doubt will be the case you can send it back within 30 days and I think there’s a 10% restock fee. But if you hate it at least you’re not stuck with it I seriously doubt you will hate it. OK guys I hope this helps, give a call!

@raysmtb1        Thanks for the perspective. Glad it worked out that way for you. My end results was different going through the DAC journey which I  posted elsewhere in this thread. Nothing is definitive about anything in audio everyone hears differently, may have different system objectives , etc. so what works for one person doesn't mean it will work for anyone or everyone else. Enjoy!

@facten 

 Nothing is definitive about anything in audio everyone hears differently, may have different system objectives , etc. so what works for one person doesn't mean it will work for anyone or everyone else. 

Exactly.

Nevertheless, there are always guys who insist their experience defines reality and that the rest of us are self-deluded.  Don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty fed up with these self-appointed "guardians of the truth". 

@raysmtb1

Are any of the DACs on your list, aside from the SpaceTech, tubed?

If your preference is for tube DACs, then it’s understandable that all SS DACs could conceivably sound relatively the same, by comparison.

@stuartk I do believe you are correct. I never thought of that. The space tech is the only one I think was tubed…lol

My favorite and current is the Audio Research Reference 9… well I have the CD9SE, which also has a transport, both tubed. 

@raysmtb1

Ah, OK. The picture now makes more sense!  ;o)