The DAC Scam - Almost everyone believes the hype

I've come to the conclusion whomever believes most things ASR says doesn't have a very resolving system.  Midfi at best.  It's not the dac chip mainly it's the overall implementation. I've owned several dacs over the years and you get what you pay for typically. 

I've come to the conclusion whomever believes most things ASR says doesn't have a very resolving system.

I've come to the conclusion whomever believes most things ASR says doesn't have ears.

 

 

I've come to the conclusion whomever believes most things ASR says doesn't have a very resolving system. Midfi at best. It's not the dac chip mainly it's the overall implementation. I've owned several dacs over the years and you get what you pay for typicallyrights.

 

You have all rights to justify your dac investments with any arguments that you like. At the same time, try to avoid public statements on how good or bad are equipment and ears of others. 

@jnovak

It amazes me that there is so much talk on all topics audio. The BEST thing any of us could say is "Come over and listen to my system and decide for yourself". I live one hour north of Philadelphia. Anyone who wants to is welcome to stop by and listen! Who else is in?

If I were in your neck of the woods and not Oregon, I would stop by. I agree, it’s better to listen to music. There is a lot of talk, and how anyone has the patience to listen to those 15 or 30 minute YouTubes whose content could be read in a few minutes if the presenters bothered to write it down -- well, that’s beyond me.

@facten 

So out of curiosity why then do you have a $4K+ Holo May  DAC?

I was curious to find out if "better" DACs sound that much better. Rather than walking incrementally through various iterations, I rather go in all the way. I went by the YouTube review of the May by GoldenSound, whom I liked as he was the one who took MQA apart. -- I then was curious how a cheaper DAC, mainly for my secondary computer desktop system, compared to the much more pricey one. To be sure to hear differences (if there are any) go for an extreme comparison. Alas, not much difference.

@oberoniaomnia  no appreciable discernable difference but you still kept the May

@facten Yes, sunk cost idea. But I will not look for anything else for a long time.

I still want to compare it to the Topping D50 gen 1, and also the Dragonfly USB DACs. When I purchased first the red then black then cobalt versions, I heard slight differences through EarPods. Again, was curious, and they are relatively cheap. However, when the DF fails, I will get something more reasonably priced.

I hear plenty of clear improvements with tubes, phono stages, speakers, etc. Just DACs, it is not better/worse, just oh-so-slightly different. 

I did a a factory tour of MSB in Northern California in January.Their Principal engineer mentioned that the implementation of the chips and isolation of the signal is paramount in a elegant DAC configuration. So much more goes into a a great sounding DAC than just the chip selected. I found that synchronizing my clock with the DAC, transport, and DDC took my digital sound to a new level.

I found that synchronizing my clock with the DAC, transport, and DDC took my digital sound to a new level

This can be interesting. Could you be more specific on which kind of improvements you noticed with either the clock synchronization or your DDC, which particular synchronizer and DDC are you using?

This is spot on. I bought over 20 different DAC units and every time I get a new one I tested against the old one and I always sit there and think to myself why did I do this.? It sounds so close to the old one I should’ve just Kept the old one. I’ve had as many as four of them hooked up at once level match them all and did a blind test. I failed miserably I could not tell the difference. Put your money into amplification or speakers don’t waste it on a DAC once you hit the $2000 level Nothing changes

Well @raysmtb1, many have been there but won’t want to admit it. A famous US manufacturer of DACs said something similar to you that DACS have more often minor differences (to paraphrase) but the better route is to invest in amplification. That’s been my experience but not with a long line of DACs to offer comparison. A long line of listening to varied (mostly tube) amplifiers over years, yes.

Most know the tech options although there’s an emerging vein with DSD upsampling with PS Audio and Cen Grand DSDDAC plus other big boys like Playback Design. (Had one of the original top Sony SACD players back in the day too.)

Then there’s the software upsampling with HQPlayer being really powerful plus the internal options built in Roon and Audirvana. With Audirvana Studio in my system, the upsampling option is quite nice up to 256 YMMV.

The AKM chips fancy upsampling to one bit DSD, outputs to a lovely bluish light display on an RME ADI-2. Many have experienced that upside with Holo DACs, Harmony, etc. and note HQPlayer elevates them to a significantly better sound.

Unsure on what you have tested but I’d love to hear a DSD upsampling shoot out between the RME ADI-2 FS, the Holo May and the Harmony. That would be fun.

(One additional note on the RME ADI-2 FS. When playing DSD Direct you need an external preamp to control the volume as volume control is lost when you make the DSD Direct setting. Found there was a benefit that way for the RME not doing that double duty in my system too. Completely different capability all around.) 

 

 

 

@raysmtb1 "don’t waste it on a DAC once you hit the $2000 level Nothing changes"

 

Can you put some context around your statement - what specific DACs under $2K have you firsthand compared to what specific DACs above $2K that led you to this definitive conclusion?

@facten I’ll do a list below Of under 4K and over 4K and then maybe that’ll help you.

 

Under 4K

Blue node, caimbridge, ockto 8, Lumin, SMSL 10,mcintosh D1 & D2, Sabaj, Space tech lab, Mytek, benchmark, I know I’m missing a few I can’t remember them

 

Over 4K

Bricasti, Meitner, Berkeley, DCS Bartók ,  i’m forgetting at least one more.

 

So I think I said in my post that I had had 20 different DACs. I’ve only listed 16 here but I know I’m forgetting a couple so I’m pretty close to 20 different units. The best units that punched above their way was the Space Tech Lab TMS-1000. I still have this unit and have ordered a new unit that will be here in a month or so. The unit I have is the beginner unit which retail for about $3200 and I’ve stepped it up to a newer unit that’s approximately $4800 With eight times over sampling. We’ll see how that goes if it’s as good as the TMS 1000 I’ll be amazed.
 

The other unit that was my favorite out of the above 4K was the Berkeley Alpha two without MQA. It was the most musical out of any of the units over 4K. All the other units were amazingly crisp and tight. They were so clean I almost had a hard time listening to them.

 

So that is my very expensive journey. I hope some of you guys out there are able to learn a little bit at my expense. If you have any questions let me know. I will say that the best DAC for the money is definitely the Space Tech Labs. Everyone should look into their stuff. Let me first say that the website needs a lot of work. It’s just the opposite of all of the other DAC manufacturers. It is at least 20 years old and looks like it. They must spend all of their time building amazing DACs instead of being worried about the website. Most manufacturers have a modern very splash website but their DACs are average. Space tech is the opposite. I had to take the back off of my unit to replace a card for an update and I was amazed at how it was built. It’s all hand assembled point to point wiring. Al, the owner explained to me that wherever they can they try not to use any printed circuit boards. They do everything they can with tubes. I’m not sure what that last sentence means because I’m not an electronics with but The DACs that they make are the most musical, analog sounding that I’ve ever heard. When you call them up to order one Al answers the phone and basically helps you figure out what you would like to achieve. Al is a Japanese American and at times I had a hard time understanding him but eventually you get it all worked out. This is starting to sound like an ad but it’s not. Out of all of those DACs at the beginning of my posts space tech labs is by far the winner out of the ones below 4K and the ones above 4K. If you’re in the market give them a try. If you don’t like the unit which I doubt will be the case you can send it back within 30 days and I think there’s a 10% restock fee. But if you hate it at least you’re not stuck with it I seriously doubt you will hate it. OK guys I hope this helps, give a call!

@raysmtb1        Thanks for the perspective. Glad it worked out that way for you. My end results was different going through the DAC journey which I  posted elsewhere in this thread. Nothing is definitive about anything in audio everyone hears differently, may have different system objectives , etc. so what works for one person doesn't mean it will work for anyone or everyone else. Enjoy!

@facten 

 Nothing is definitive about anything in audio everyone hears differently, may have different system objectives , etc. so what works for one person doesn't mean it will work for anyone or everyone else. 

Exactly.

Nevertheless, there are always guys who insist their experience defines reality and that the rest of us are self-deluded.  Don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty fed up with these self-appointed "guardians of the truth". 

 

 

@raysmtb1

Are any of the DACs on your list, aside from the SpaceTech, tubed?

If your preference is for tube DACs, then it’s understandable that all SS DACs could conceivably sound relatively the same, by comparison.

@stuartk I do believe you are correct. I never thought of that. The space tech is the only one I think was tubed…lol

My favorite and current is the Audio Research Reference 9… well I have the CD9SE, which also has a transport, both tubed. 

@raysmtb1

Ah, OK. The picture now makes more sense!  ;o)

I have had several dacs through the years, nothing over $1k retail. They all sounded different in one way or the other. Warmth, coldness, detail, tone, spatiality, dynamics, etc. But most important to me, mostly, is the PRAT of the device (discussed here ad nauseam). My Adcom GDA 700, with improved power supply, and heavy chassis/internal component damping, still does a great job of conveying the musicianship and the composition of the music I listen to, quite accurately, to my ears with my room/system. Laugh if you want. My best, MrD.

Jason Bourne Steals the Blackbriar Files  Love the film, but noticed immediately his small hand held monocular outperforms my Swarovski ATX 95mm objective with 70X magnification mated to the ATX ocular lens module mounted on a Swarovski PCT carbon fiber tripod with PTH Professional Tripod Head (rail system) closing in on $7,000.  Now that's hype!  Need to get me one of them monoculars!

Sorry, BTX ocular for clarity.

Skip the DAC. This $2k all-in-one player (CD, SACD, FLAC player, streamer) sounds better than any transport and DAC combo regardless of price (incl. $260k dCS). Alex/Wavetouch audio

https://youtu.be/ADJab9HrXpU?si=O0t2DjNCp3rHfekA

https://youtu.be/QkQcB3nFJDc?si=Qoe0edEnetnYhY-x&t=142

@mihorn 

You seem like a nice enough guy but…

Skip the DAC. This $2k all-in-one player (CD, SACD, FLAC player, streamer) sounds better than any transport and DAC combo regardless of price (incl. $260k dCS). Alex/Wavetouch audio

You can’t possibly be serious. Anyone who might make this statement loses what little credibility they may have had.

The earth is flat. Anyone can see that with one’s own eyes. If I don’t want to believe in all the ways it can be described that the earth is a globe I don’t have to. In the end “anyone is free to believe what they will” and still walk on the earth whether it’s flat or a globe. Listen to the music and enjoy the components. BTW don’t be like Mad Mike Hughes. He built a rocket to ride up into the atmosphere to prove to himself the earth is a globe. He crashed back to earth and killed himself. Was it really worth it? I guess to him, it was.

ghasley

@mihorn  Skip the DAC. This $2k all-in-one player (CD, SACD, FLAC player, streamer) sounds better than any transport and DAC combo regardless of price (incl. $260k dCS). Alex/Wavetouch audio

You can’t possibly be serious. Anyone who might make this statement loses what little credibility they may have had.

=====> Why my WT-95 is the world’s best sound digital player? ----- 1) no veil, no distortion noise, closest to the original sound reproduction. All digital (and analog) sources sound veil and glare, except my WT-95. Please point out if any CDP/system sounds cleaner than this WT-95 system.  https://youtu.be/QkQcB3nFJDc?si=Qoe0edEnetnYhY-x&t=142

2) Natural sound mid-range (voice). All audio systems’ human voice sound far back and thin. Only WT-95 mid sound like the original recording. https://youtu.be/ADJab9HrXpU?si=jGaG5gjC5hYP2oia

3) Cheap and plenty replacement parts. WT-95 is forever. There are thousands used Oppo bdp-95s. I have so many broken CDP gears (Theta data 2 paid $3k, many Thetas, PS d-links, Cary,  many DACs I don’t use anymore, everyone know what they paid since 40 y ago). WT-95 sounds top them all (incl. every new tech noise/veil monsters - $260k dac!!) and replacements are plenty.

4) Newer digital technology sound worse than older tech. Newer digital tech destroys/chop down the original music (too much cooking) and lost the natural sound focus (sound images/musicality) and re-constructs some artificial sounds. **I agree that sometimes newer tech sounds bit better to listen (not musical, in artificial way) with bad irritating sound audio systems.

Ex.) Listen below 2 same music (10 years old, 3 years old). 10 YO is much better. 10 YO. https://youtu.be/kYICwkCnUIk?si=NHet3QBYB50Jazzn ----   3 YO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqkcFJxIjVE

Post any audio systems that sounds better than my system. My speaker is 5.25" woofer and very low freq isn’t in my recordings, but WT-95 does the full range. Alex/Wavetouch audio

https://youtu.be/uMYpfk7RegM?si=yQsObLCQvDnGyP5Q

unfortunately it sounds terrible on Youtube ...

jl35   unfortunately it sounds terrible on Youtube ...

We talk and listen through the cell phone mic and speaker every days. Trust me. YT sounds is not that bad. At least, any one can compare and judge which 1 of 2 sounds is better. Alex/Wavetouch

@mihorn The oppo is a fine player and was great value. You are simply overstating its capabilities. Perhaps something is being lost in translation?

 

At the end of the day though, for you to proclaim it the world’s best is ridiculous.

ghasley    

@mihorn  ~~ At the end of the day though, for you to proclaim it the world’s best is ridiculous.

I’ve been Home Entertain audio shows every years for last >10 years. Many guests heard my system and said my system sounded the best at the show. I used WT-95 in all those shows.

All below are by A’phile Junkie (audio youtuber) at same show weekend.

https://youtu.be/mK2xxQpCDRM?si=MzrsfRATO7N2D0nQ&t=51

In this video (my system), people’s voices and the audio music sound warm, musical, and blending naturally (like you are in live band café).

In other rooms, people’s voices and the music don’t blend and sound bright and distorted. https://youtu.be/Zf71OfPZm4c?si=GsQW5efJYGnEUSYe&t=114

https://youtu.be/mK2xxQpCDRM?si=NOIhRE6l70gUsOxY&t=105

https://youtu.be/6CVieurDyAA?si=yZIcvG7n6n8ynauw&t=88

https://youtu.be/8fpAxLgrTw8?si=o_CkQD4aUiRTrc8H&t=53

AJ at different show 9 days ago.

https://youtu.be/5VYBItIjQVE?si=ow8ZwpF2CUuvX71w&t=12

I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to listen them even 1 minute. My WT-95 is absolute the world’s best sound CD player.

Hear my videos from diff years: https://youtu.be/LgECjImr-qY?si=UFdVQIt7isvjxMPu

https://youtu.be/LJ6nf22KgPM?si=qun8L6kL03sEOG-E

https://youtu.be/0hUIlxgcF1k?si=Bp-f3ZhdiH2OuUgf

Alex/Wavetouch audio

@mihorn 

Hmmmmmmmm, well, I guess that makes it true huh? Let’s agree to disagree shall we?

I'm 73 with a system that doesn't need a $2,000 Dac.I don't have the money honey ...retired and in these days have to watch my funds ..

ghasley

@mihorn  well, I guess that makes it true huh? Let’s agree to disagree shall we?

Agreed. Back to regular program. Alex/WTA

Who made the drive in your CD player? Pioneer? Marantz?

If they made it and you just put it in a chassis, called it "Wavetouch" thereafter......are you really the world's best or is it them?

 

My WT-95 is absolute the world’s best sound CD player.

deep_333

Who made the drive in your CD player? Pioneer? Marantz?

If they made it and you just put it in a chassis, called it "Wavetouch" thereafter......are you really the world’s best or is it them?

My system consists speakers (5.25" woofer) + WT-95 (only source) + 35watts shoes box int amp. If WT-95 isn’t great, where this nice sounds comes from? Can you point out any sound system sounds better than my meager system? Alex/Wavetouch audio

https://youtu.be/ADJab9HrXpU?si=CNtJpk5lWY5nuN4r

@mihorn  Glad to hear it’s the "best" ever and you’re enjoying it!

I admire your confidence in these matters...

Clapton makes me fall asleep a bit though.

See this guy?...His name is Diamond Dave...Watch how his confidence soars with every step he takes...

https://youtube.com/shorts/iPYl1Vp6rgU?si=pJ64vX-0Adi3W8V4

Play his song......  Van Halen - Ain’t talkin Bout Love

@ 95 db at least, record it and post a clip...would be curious to see how it sounds on the world’s best rig...thanks in advance.

 

 Can you point out any sound system sounds better than my meager system?

Entertaining, this is such an interesting forum.  Bourne Identity loves the old stuff and claims it’s better than everything and this @mihorn thinks a 5” woofer speaker and $2500 all in one beats mega dollar systems. I am somewhat amazed by the claims vs just stating what you get from your pick of gear and how it’s changed your listening enjoyment.  We all have small amount or large amounts invested in our system’s but we most likely could be more civilized and productive on these forums without claims and insults to each other.  I am guilty of it myself in the past as I let my own opinions be the rule vs just a share of thoughts.  I hope some of you can realize petty jabs serves no one but the one throwing the shot(s) at members here.  

@cfarrow @mihorn 

Mihorn is a manufacturer and as such, he should disclose same is every post where he touts his products. I heard his speakers in his room at the southern California audio show in 2015 IIRC although it may have been 2014.

 

His claims of his gear being best in the world are, perhaps, optimistic.

August I upgrade from an Audiolab 6000 CDT to a Shanling ET3. The improvement was not subtle. Actually amazing and only $750

Op, wonder how Smsl PL200T stacks up with ET3?  Much cheaper (only $499), additional 10Mhz clock input AND, more importantly, ability to use LPS for sound improvement.  Maybe another nontrivial improvement, Wow!

I know enough about acoustics and the way we can use it to know that as much as acoustics cannot replace a good design of the pieces of gear, no good gear design can replace acoustics parameters controls..

 Then it makes no sense to claim to a "best system" at any price in any room ...

 

 Once we learn acoustics basics concepts ( i recommend to begin by Dr. Choueiri articles and  Dr. Toole book and especially acoustics specialized research question about some concepts as reflection role in perception etc ) we learn how to optimize any system at any price and it is a long process if as myself you do it yourself at peanuts cost...

I dont brag about my system which  i like (low cost) , it would be ridiculous compared to others system here,i propose study and experiments... Read about resonators for example...

A great sound may cost little but ask for a big work on a long time ...If you listen in a living room it is more difficult so much i could never have done it at such  low cost ...

 

 

deep_333

@mihorn  Glad to hear it’s the "best" ever and you’re enjoying it!

I admire your confidence in these matters...

Play his song......  Van Halen - Ain’t talkin Bout Love

@ 95 db at least, record it and post a clip...would be curious to see how it sounds on the world’s best rig...thanks in advance.

Thank you for kind words!

I record below this morning. Adding a powered sub-woofer could make it better, but I didn’t bother. Please enjoy. Alex/Wavetouch audio

https://youtu.be/kEaq0CGsDT8?si=AwTJUBbaYtBh_6Eq

@lanx0003 

No idea. I tried the ET3 as they offered 30 day money back

 

There are many audiophools out there, you can see this on some of these posts on this thread and the guy in the video. You have people that claim they are the only people that can take a $200 piece of equipment and make it a giant killer, or if you pay more than $5 for a cable, you are a fool. Then what’s scary is the guy in the video that calls himself a mastering specialist and he can’t hear.

Decades ago, I owned the Audio Alchemy pieces with the outboard power supply and this was my 1st time I used the i2s interface, it came with the AA equipment. How did it sound? Ok for its day but would be terrible today. Since then I’ve owned 6 other dacs from Audio Research, Wyred 4Sound, Auralic, and a few from PS Audio. The clown in the video only thinks that all dacs have chips in them, so what does this guy think about fpga based dacs?

There are big differences between dacs, good and bad. A friend brought in a bunch of dacs into his home for a month so he can determine which 1 would he buy. The dacs ranged in prices f I’m $2500 to $15k. A few of us evaluated these dacs and there was no 1 winner. Only 1 person liked the most expensive where a couple people liked the middle of the road dacs. Then a newer fpga dac came out and blew all these away. 
 

As for somebody that claims a dac doesn’t make a big difference in the overall quality of the total system, this is a fallacy. If the source is bad, you think a pair of million $$ speakers will fix that? Nope! That’s like saying a $500 power cord is snake oil when I heard a $200 Nordost power cord make a huge difference in sound with a $5000 McIntosh integrated with magnepan 20.1 speakers. Just think how a better power cord will make a $100000 amp sound? Cables are like tires. I spend over $500 for a Porsche rated tire (not tires) which makes a Porsche handle to its fullest extent whereas this same tire on a Toyota would not make the Toyota handle like a Porsche. But, on the other hand, you put a $50 Toyota tire on a Porsche, this $100,000+ car will handle no better than the $18k Toyota 

The guy in the video may be deluded....

But many others criticizing him  can be deluded too...

 

 (To be clear i can audibly distinguish any dac i ever owned but evaluating the dac performance ask for more than just plug and play)

 

 What those selling low cost dac as well as costlier higher  dac design and quality miss is that:

----The performance depend heavily on the coupling with the other pieces of gear...

--- The performance evaluation and optimization depend of the system/acoustics

--- The performance evaluation of any dac change a lot if all the gear pieces are well grounded...

 

How many here own a conditioner which need a grounding process ?

Almost all people...

Is your linear power supply grounded ?

Mine is too ...

Is you amplifier grounded ?

Mine is...

Is your pre-amplifier is grounded ?

Mine is...

 

Guess what ?

There is no relation between the sound of a dac in a well grounded system and the same dac in this system not grounded at all...

I know that by experience and experiments...

I never bought costlier ground box either ...

I designed mine...

 

 No sellers of any piece of gear will say when they are selling their "masterpiece" buy a ground box (most are costlier than my system)...

Guess why they dont say that ?

 

 

 

 

How many times is this video going to be posted? Here's the bottom line: take a $200 DAC and then swap out the cheap power supply with a high quality linear one. Notice any difference in the sound? You almost certainly will. Next, if the DAC uses socketed op amps, swap them out for good discrete op amps. Hear any more difference in the sound? Again, you almost certainly will. There is a lot more to the quality of a DAC than just the chip itself. The chip, how it is implemented in the circuit, the power supply, the output stage are all huge factors. 

The Wiim mimi, GTFOOH! 🤑

@medium_grade 

 

@rbstehno 

Lots of excellent 411

 

FYI I had a full AA dac/transport rig, including the light interconnects

 

My dac/pre of some 4 years now is the AA DDP-1 + PS 5- AMAZING