@larsman www.catamps.com
Suggestions for a holographic preamp?
I'm looking to replacing my Herron Audio tube line stage with something else, not because of a problem with the sound, but for a few other reasons.
I do both digital and analog, and have a Herron Audio tube phono preamp. My power amp is an MSB S-200, which is awesome, and my speakers are Marten Parker Duos, which are wonderful for a deep, holographic soundstage that I like so much.
I listen mostly to rock and reggae, and I'm looking to keep the price under $10K US, and I'm fine with a used one as well.
I get the feeling that I will need a tube preamp to get that holographic sound, but perhaps there are some SS ones that do as good a job?
The fellow I work with at The Music Room suggested a ModWright LS-100 or a used PS Audio BHK preamp; I've researched and they both look like they'd fit the bill, but I'd like to hear your suggestions, too!
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@daveyf - I looked it up and it seems like a great preamp, but it has no remote control, and as I'm constantly having to change volumes and mute during the course of a TV/music session, it would not work for me. Thanks again for the suggestion; I had heard of Convergent Technologies, just not the CAT acronym. |
@daveyf - makes total sense; that's why Keith Herron was reluctant to have a remote with his preamps until his customers demanded it, so he gave us this cheap tiny thing. Alas, I'm not interested SOLELY in SQ; I've got to be able to live with it functionally and practically as well. I was checking out Aric Audio's tube preamps, and he's the same way - no remote, all purity, but not for me. |
@larsman I believe the Aric Mother Lode preamp does have a remote control. Volume control, but no mute. |
I've never heard of a good universal remote (basic good, as in something from URC or ProControl) not being able to learn IR codes from another remote. More than likely, an existing IR codes set was used for those remotes, especially if it is a small manufacturer. It could be something as simple as a code set from an old Sony Trinitron tube TV. It wouldn't matter. As long as the receiving IR chipset can "see" and interpret the codes sent from the remote, it would work. If the remote is RF, (rare, but possible) then that can be a different can of worms. At that point, the OEM remote would be the easiest way to go. |
@daveyf - Right again, Davey (and @soix ); I don't know why he couldn't have put a 'Mute' button on there - all I really require is volume and mute. @oliver_reid - I have Marten Parker Duos - they deliver that in spades; they do with my current preamp. @signaforce - if I go the PS Audio route, it would be to audition the new PMG Signature preamp. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've researched all the suggestions you all have made, thank you, and as of right now, I'm leaning towards a home audition of a Backert Rhumba Extreme 1.4 and/or an LTA MicroZOTL Level 3. |
@paradisecom The harmony remotes with hubs are great. No longer sold, but still supported (and available used) with most major components supported and learning. I have 3, 2 with hubs (harmony ultimate) on my 2 systems & and one (700) without a hub in the master. Been using them for years. Solid app, very reliable. A web site that provides all supported components. The hub allows you to control components inside a closed cabinet or components that do not have line of sight. It comes with two “hub extenders” for multiple cabinets or on top of your cabinet for your TV, |
I have a rather nice system, all Rock and roll ONLY. Pass X250.8 and Bricasti M1 SE DAC with network card. Wont go into all the other pieces. Both systems controlled by Benchmark LA-4 preamps. 30 day trial period, made in Upstate NY 3K or so, Phone always answered by a human (RORY, IS GREAT TO DEAL WITH. Adjustable gain, etc. Quality in and out! Robert TN |
@robshaw - Thanks for that info, Robert - keep rockin'! |
BTW, I found the email and this is what Keith Herron says about his remote: I am not aware of a universal remote that will work with the 360. Our remote changes the code (a toggle bit) every other time you push the buttons (except for the volume level - and +). This prevents switching back and forth when holding the button in too long. |
@larsman Many mute circuits have the potential to mess with the sound. Since your amp has a balanced input you might consider a balanced preamp as well. If you do, its helpful if that preamp supports AES48, the balanced line standard. The standard helps prevent the interconnect cable from having a 'sound' (coloration). There are not many tube balanced preamps that support the standard. Many audiophiles don't realize how important that is; getting rid of cable interactions in the system opens up transparency which contributes to a more holographic sound stage. |
@atmasphere - Wow, thanks for all that great information! And yes, I was leaning towards a balance preamp as well, so it can take advantage of the balanced XLR output of my DAC. Is there some spec I should look for to see if it supports that standard? |
A Post follows that was made in 2019. " In his Positive Feedback review of the EAR-Yoshino 868L line stage pre, the reviewer made the statement that, though the 868 provides XLR jacks for balanced operation, the pre-amp circuitry itself is single-ended. Designer Tim deParavicini in his manufacturer reply corrected the reviewer, stating that no, the 868 is a true balanced design. It is a commonly-held understanding by audiophiles and semi-pro hi-fi reviewers that a true balanced amp by definition has doubled parts. As atmasphere just said, that is a misconception and misunderstanding of what balanced is. A pre-amp can have single-ended circuits yet be true balanced in operation. The real concern in any piece of gear is how the balanced inputs/outputs are implemented. In the EAR 868, Paravicini accomplished that goal via transformers. In his Music Reference RM-200, Roger Modjeski does so with a resistor network. Companies with lower standards typically create balanced inputs/outputs with the dreaded opamp, and with the expected sonic compromise. A higher retail price does not necessarily buy one balanced ins and outs NOT created with opamps. If possible, inspect the schematic of any piece of balanced gear you are considering buying, to see how it’s balanced connections are created, and if they conform to AES48. " The Following is the Industry Info that can be investigated. https://www.aes.org/publications/standards/search.cfm?docID=44 |
@pindac - I checked out that link, and they've got those documents, but you've got to buy them. If it was electronics stuff, I wouldn't know what I was looking at anyway. I don't mind 'coloration' - I usually quite like it; I'm more interested in how the music makes me feel than how accurately it reproduces what the producer laid down. @laaudionut - I might just do that; he might have some kind of solution to accomplish a remote muting functionality; I'm sure he's been asked about it before. |
sweet speakers and amplifier! i suggest my current preamp- the two chassis Cary Audio SLP-05 if you want a truly spatial sound stage. no matter which amp I have used with it over the years it never fails to deliver a huge top to bottom side to side sound stage with detailed cues of the location of musical elements in space. there are many NOS 6SN7 tubes you can swap as well as NOS GZ34 tube power rectifier. All class A triode design with ultra low noise from the 2nd chassis power supply with premium R-core transformer. The sound is also incredibly energetic and dynamic. |
@avanti1960 - thank you! Actually, quite a long time ago I had a modded SLP-05, and my other gear was different then too, but it just didn't do it for me as much as I'd have liked. Could have been any number of factors, but I did give it a go! |
@larsman check out space tech lab, there are many preamps to choose from on the website, Al the owner can customize any one of his models also. I like his reference series of preamps, he even has an 845 tube preamp, but that only has balanced outputs and no remote. Many of his models have remote and I'm pretty sure he can incorporate a mute function also. I have one of his lower model preamps, but it has great 3D sound and is also dynamic. He uses power tubes on the output stage of quite a few of his preamps. |
@invalid - I just checked out their website, and their product list is overwhelming! I'm not going to be doing any direct buys from Canada anyway (I love Canada, I just don't want to deal with international stuff). And 1997 is calling them and it wants its web style back! That has to be one of the worst looking websites I've seen in a decade or more; they really should consider hiring a web developer to do an upgrade to the 21st century. |
@larsman One other tip when investigating preamps: The output impedance is usually specified at 1KHz. But if you want to have the preamp play bass as well as it does the midrange, the output impedance at 20Hz is nice to know too. If the preamp has output coupling caps or an output transformer, its likely its output impedance is much higher at 20Hz; particularly in the case of the former. |
I’d strongly recommend considering the Vinnie Rossi Brama preamplifier. It’s an exceptional piece of gear, built around 300B tubes in the output stage with a hybrid topology that allows you to run it fully tube, fully solid-state, or a blend of both—offering remarkable flexibility. This is ultra high-end equipment, unmatched in today’s market in terms of design, craftsmanship, and sonic performance.
Vinnie Rossi, the founder and designer, is a brilliant engineer who stands firmly behind his products. His preamp is known for delivering a stunningly holographic soundstage, with a level of refinement and dimensionality that would complement your MSB and Marten setup beautifully. And since you’re already leaning toward a tube sound, this would give you that lush, spacious presentation while also offering options to tailor the voicing to your taste |
@ei001h - Oh, I'm hip to Vinnie Rossi, and I believe every word you say about his Brama preamp, but alas, budget won't permit. Thanks for your suggestion, and you are right about that combo of MSB and Marten. I seldom if ever see an MSB S-200 power amp on the market; those are real keepers. |
No such thing , a preamp. Is a part of the sum. if buying tube then a 300 B would give you this Radu Tarta builds IMO the best high quality custom preamps at less then half the Big commercial markup brands with Far superior parts quality and 40+ years in vacuum tube engineering . He has built several for me and I am very picky knowing parts quality and Audio very well decades in this so called hobby more of a quest for realism - perfection in music 🎼 music 🎶 !! |
This has been my experience. If pursuing a tube preamp you can significantly change its sonic characteristics by using NOS tubes. This has allowed me to spend thousands less on the preamp itself and spend $500 on the primary preamp tubes. These vintage tubes are much better at producing a holographic soundstage than any new production Chinese or Russian they put in today’s preamps. I have used Brent Jessee to guide me on what matches my preamp but there a few others with experience and a good supply of vintage tubes.
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Totally understand the budget constraints—but just a heads-up, you can actually save a lot by going for a first-generation Brama. There’s one listed on US Audio Mart right now for $20K. I’d consider offering $10–15K and see if the seller bites. These units come with a 10-year warranty, so you’re still well covered. It could be an incredible value if you’re looking for that top-tier tube pre without paying full price |
@triton20trx and @ei001h - thanks - I know about tube rolling; I've upgraded tubes in both my Herron components and in my 2 tube headphone amps, including one with a couple of WE 300B's in it (and those were well worth the $1200). And yes, when I'm looking for a tube upgrade, my first stop is generally Brent Jessee. Been going to him for a lot of years now. |
@gkr7007 - I did indeed look into the Spatial Audio Raven, but it's too big for the space I have available; same reason I didn't look farther into the Aric Audio's preamps; if I had the space and could figure out some way around the lack of mute on the remote, I'd have bought a Motherlode XL. LTA MicroZOTL and Backert Rhumba Extreme both would fit nicely; in fact, I've already gone ahead and placed an order for a MicroZOTL for audition. |
Larsman I went on an extended preamp search myself last year, and this year have helped several friends upgrade their preamps as well.......must have tested at least 13 preamps. With that year long experience, here would be my choices in order: Aric Audio Motherlode XL $6,875 Don Sachs/Lynn Olson Raven $6,395 (Sold and assembled by Spatial Audio) Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme 1.4 $8,500 Supratek Grange $6,500 (The Cabernet model is a step down, but is a steal at $4,000 for the budget minded) Atma-Sphere MP-3 $6,500 BAT VK-80 $9,000 The Aric Audio Motherlode XL is the best preamplifier I have ever heard. Aric Kimball is a joy to deal, he uses the highest quality components, is point to point wired, and allows you to choose the wood for your preamp. I own this preamp as do 3 of my friends, it is magical in every aspect. Highly thought of most everywhere, and well reviewed. The Raven preamp is really close to the Motherlode XL, and 2 of my friends prefer it to the Motherlode XL It really is a brilliant. Also highly thought of in almost all circles, and well reviewed. Don and Lynn have decades of experience in preamp and amp design, and this is the result of a "no holds barred" approach. The Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme 1.4 is a preamp that that I could absolutely love and keep for a lifetime......if I had not heard the Motherlode and Raven. There is a ton of love for this preamp on forums, and reviewers love it too.....it's really really good. The SupraTek Grange, Atma-Sphere MP-3, and BAT preamps are also wonderful preamps. They are not in my top 3, but many many people own them and love them. I'd never fault anyone who prefers these preamplifiers. My good friend Patrick prefers his BAT VK-80 over any other preamp, and he has been with me on most of my journey.....and hears the same systems I do. |
@vthokie83 What were the differences you heard between the Aric and Raven? |
@vthokie83 - Yes, I've read some of your posts on other threads and they've been very informative. I appreciate your opinions on these. Aric sure seems to put some serious mojo into his gear based on every single review or opinion I've read or seen about it by anybody. Not that people ain't been ravin' (sorry) 'bout the Raven, too. |
https://exemplaraudio.com/products/preamplifiers/ It sounds like you are looking at budget preamps? Call John Tucker at eXemplar Audio. His exception SE preamp just might be impossible beat in its price range. I’m a sound stage junkie and this one will get you where you want to be. It pairs will with many high quality amps and should do just fine with your MSB. Also- Linear Tube Audio, Aesthetix, Accuphase, Audionet, VAC, Air Tight, Margules, Trafomatic, Audio Hungary, Vinnie Rossi |
+1 @erice64 Listening at the moment to ATC SCA 2 preamp. Remarkable! Never on my radar until ATC dealer Tom at Big Ear recommended. Truly a classic SS beauty. Powerful Class A annihilating my Luxman C900u, which is quite good. Music simply emerges from blackness. Good hunting. |
Soix Damn that it a difficult endeavor, but I'll give it a go. Both preamps are fully balanced 6SN7 based preamps (my preferred tube), are dead nuts quiet, background is black as night. Both have great soundstages tall and wide, both have a 3-D like effect with musicians and vocalists clearly placed on the stage, both are very transparent/detailed with even the smallest details coming through, but never ever sibilant. Both preamps are point to point wired without PCBs, use the very highest quality resistors, caps, transformers, volume controls, and wiring. Both are impeccably designed by extraordinary people. Aric Audio Motherlode XL - The Motherlode XL is full on fun from get go, has more attack and speed, is a little more (I mean slightly) more "tube like" compared to the Raven. That makes the Motherlode a little more "rich/full" with beautiful full tone. I prefer the Aric Audio over the Raven with solid state amps (CODA S5.5, Denafrips Thallo, Pass Labs, BAT Rex 300); and I like it equally well with most tube amps (except 300B) Raven - Is slightly more transparent and correct on tonality....neutral and slightly less tube like compared to the Motherlode, smooth and clean. It has a magical air about it, one reviewer called it "ethereal" to which I would agree if anyone can describe that. Like the Aric Audio, the soundstage is brilliant and maybe just a touch deeper; and like the Motherlode XL musicians and vocalists are believably placed on the stage. I liked the Raven with solid state amps, just slightly less than the Motherlode; and likewise the Raven is beautiful with tube amps. I will say that I preferred the Raven with the 2 300B amps I've heard (Sachs/Olson Blackbird monoblocks and Aric Audio 300B), and equally well with other tube amps (EL34, KT88, KT120) It comes down to personal preference and the gear you are going to run in my mind. If one had never heard the other preamp, you would believe you've heard the best preamp ever made. The differences are minor, and they are both brilliant. I hope this answers your questions Soix |
@vthokie83 Yes it does. Very well done and thank you. |
I have an Allnic L-8000 DHT pre-amp, it is the end game pre for me. Before the L-8000 I had a used L-7000 that was phenomenal and before that a used L-3000 which was also exceptional. There is an Allnic sound and holographic is a big part of it. They are also almost un-tube like in clarity, transparency and quietness but retain the beautiful timbre of tubes. I believe the L-7000 (used) is under $10000. |
When my Phon' was being designed over a period of time there was a few Circuits Produced of which a few were superseded. Even though the updated designs were a betterment ( Personal Preference as a result of listening evaluation). The earlier designs were introduced on occasion to measure where the differences being produced were able to be discerned for the impression of the End Sound being produced. A Friend after being demo'd my Phon' on a few occasions wanted to have a model in their own system. When having been demo'd an earlier Prototype, they remained smitten and after having it put into a Casing with a few component exchanges, had bought into the design at very very fair monies. My experiences of this Phon' is enjoyed as much as my own, there is only small differences to the voicing that I can detect in the different system. There may be a Prototype/ Prototypes that still remains, which can be discussed with Mr Sachs. Such a Model may become after a little attention, a Bespoke Design that will due to Pedigree always be a Saleable Pre Amp, offering much of the attraction of the Amp' offered to the broader community? |
As a side, A Forum Member PM’d myself about a Supplier of D.U.C.C Cable. I can’t reply to mails that arrive in my Personal Account and Mails are not shown to me within the forum. Additionally I can’t send a PM within the forum. The Link will be a beneficial source of info for the PM Inquirer. As a Wire Type used as a signal path on a cable, it will be beneficial to the sent signal to augment a Holographic ( me terminology for this effect is ethereal ) perception of an End Sound produced. http://www.acrolink.jp/english/products/7n_a2070.html Luxman also uses the same Wire Type and occasionally it is found as a PC 1 Wire directly from Mitsubishi. The Link is direct from Mitsubishi and shows for Product Code for the Wire Type. The Product Code could serve as method to finding the wire only from other sources? https://www.mitsubishi-copper.com/en/products/materials/mof_6n8/ Mitsubishi has in recent months produced a state of the art OFC Copper Wire that is Comparable but surpassing oxygen-free copper C10200, which has the highest electrical conductivity (101%IACS). |