Turn any 6DJ8/6922/7308/6N23P based preamp into a more holographic machine by replacing those tubes with Western Electric 396a/2C51 (with adapters).
edit: the preamp won't be more holographic, but the sounds coming out of your speakers will be 😀
Suggestions for a holographic preamp?
I'm looking to replacing my Herron Audio tube line stage with something else, not because of a problem with the sound, but for a few other reasons.
I do both digital and analog, and have a Herron Audio tube phono preamp. My power amp is an MSB S-200, which is awesome, and my speakers are Marten Parker Duos, which are wonderful for a deep, holographic soundstage that I like so much.
I listen mostly to rock and reggae, and I'm looking to keep the price under $10K US, and I'm fine with a used one as well.
I get the feeling that I will need a tube preamp to get that holographic sound, but perhaps there are some SS ones that do as good a job?
The fellow I work with at The Music Room suggested a ModWright LS-100 or a used PS Audio BHK preamp; I've researched and they both look like they'd fit the bill, but I'd like to hear your suggestions, too!
130 responses Add your response
My Benchmark HPA4 seemed to be a little thin IN MY SYSTEM, so I replaced it with an Audio Research LS28SE. WOW! Same remarkable extension and resolution in the bass and treble, with a little more meat.
Plus, the ARC has enough inputs and outputs for any system. Now I use the HPA4 for headphones, using the Rec Out from the ARC. |
| Post removed |
@vthokie83 - for sure, thanks for asking! I put in an order for a LTA MicroZOTL a month ago and it should arrive on Monday. In the meantime, I found a really nice used Aric Audio Super 6SN7 at a good price on USAM (the seller was moving up to the Motherlode XL as he wanted XLR connections) so I bought that. I've had some nice correspondence with Aric since then - and yep, what a great guy!! The stock tubes were holding it back though, so I ordered some upgraded 6SN7's from Brent Jessee, and it sounded great with those until one of the tubes started making noises from my speaker that were like gunshots, and I'm exchanging those. I'll likely keep the MicroZOTL as well - I can 'roll' preamps depending on the music and might be able to replace some of my tube headphone amps with the MicroZOTL. I was considering the Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme, but with its higher price than the others, I think I'll stick with these two. |
Thanks for that, @tksteingraber ! |
@larsman nice choices…I love my Aric amp and he’s such a great guy as well. I have an Aric Super 300B Set amp paired with a Supratek Cabernet 6SN7 preamp. Just a pair made in heaven. I have rolled and researched many 6SN7 tubes. There are many good choices but I keep coming back to my 1952-53 Sylvania 6SN7GT, GTA, WGT versions. They are just magical in my 2 amps. Sylvania makes a-lot of various versions so the best ones , in my mind, are late 40’s-early 50’s short bottle with heavy chrome getter running down the sides and only the parallel T-Plate with rectangular Mica’s.. (NOT THE ANGLES V PLATES). The military versions have extra support rods and brown bases are most common. I feel they sound very similar if not the same. Just my experience and 2 cents. Enjoy the preamp. Here is an example of a nice pair. https://ebay.us/m/aajZ45 |
@vthokie83 - thanks! It should be showing up within the next few hours. Aric and I have already been in communication, as I wanted to get his take on tube upgrades (do you have any suggestions? I've gotten some from Aric and from Brent Jessee) and to let him know that I'll likely be buying a Transcent Push-Pull; he suggested for my purposes and gear basing it around the Tung-Sol KT-170 tubes. So if you've got any advice for me concerning tube compliment or anything else about Transcend, I'd really appreciate hearing it! |
larsman Congrats on the Super 6SN7 preamp.....I'd love to hear your experience when you have some time on it. I own Aric's Motherlode XL and Transcend "Push Pull" EL34 (with several upgrades including tubes), and those are end game for me. I will add a second preamp and another amp at some point, but those two are staying. I'd speak with Aric if you have any questions on the Khozmo controller, he's very accessable |
@jackd - Thanks for letting me know about Khozmo - I will check them out. I ended up buying a 2nd hand Super 6sN7 on USAM, from somebody who sold it because he needed a pre with balanced XLR outputs for a new amp; this would be good for me as it takes up less space than the 2 box Motherlode models and it comes with a remote with volume and mute. |
The volume control unit in Aric's preamps are from Khozmo and that looks like one of the cheaper and simpler models available from Khozmo. You might want to look on their website and see the other versions available and ask for one of those. Don Sachs used a model with volume, mute, input selection and display control in a $2800 preamp. Remote is the same just with more functions. |
@grannyring it's hard to beat a well designed DHT preamp. |
@daveyf @soix - I've been doing some serious research on Aric's gear and I think I would really like something of his. I note that on the page with the Super 6SN7 preamp, it shows a remote that does have a Mute button. That preamp would also fit into my space better as a one box unit. But I'll ask him if the other preamps can be muted like that. That Transcend push-pull amp looks mighty tasty for the price, too. |
@larsman Thanks for the tubes. |
@livin_262002 - thanks for your suggestion; I just researched it and that is in my price range, and my local dealer even carries Octave Audio, but not that model. It's certainly something I'll keep in mind for the future; they sure seem to have some great gear.... |
I have not heard the Herron but I’m very happy with Octave Audio HP300SE. The sound with stock tubes is good but with top of the line NOS, the presentation is phenomenal. The dimensionality of the sound stage is very clear. Replaced the stock tubes with Siemens E88CC and Tfk 801s. Even though this is a tube preamp it doesn’t sound tubey or euphonic. It’s very precise and transparent. |
@audio_phool - OK, it originally had stock tubes, I don't remember which kind, and I replaced them with 4 6922 Amperex Bugle Boys. Those were fine with the speakers I had at the time, but shortly afterwards I upgraded the speakers and the Bugle Boys were too 'hot' for them, so I put the stock tubes back in. Still have the Bugle Boys, though. |
@audio_phool - sure, I'll check it out and get back to you in the next day or so. |
@larsman can you let me know which tube have upgraded to from the stock tubes of Herron Pre-amp? |
@seasidelps - thank you for that recommendation; I'd not heard of Viola Labs before and I looked them up; fascinating stuff, and I've no doubt that this is as good as you say it is, and $4500 or so for something that listed for $22K is great value, but I've also got to consider resale value, so I'll be sticking to some still relatively obscure but better known brands, and ones that don't need an iPod and 2.4G router! Hopefully some other people might see this recommendation and look into that at TMR. |
if you are using TMR with some credit and cash, then do not hesitate to watch the Viola Labs Cresendo they have keep dropping in price and snag it. It already represents a great value at the current price which is 1500 down from where it started months and months ago and is less than 25 cents on the dollar vs retail. it might seem daunting to get it set up properly but I can assist there with the correct config file for the sn of that unit and the correct software. You would also need to grab an old 2.4G router to get it connected to the app for control. Not sure if that ipod included still works but if so, awesome, but I just use my phone. As for the sound...it is beyond spectacular. Truly. |
@vthokie83 I have failed to find D. U. C. C as a Wire Only. I have found a 7N Stress Free Wire but was not convinced it was D. U. C. C. I also once found a PC Triple C Wire as a Single 0.08mm. Coil Winding on a MC is typically 0.03mm
|
As a side, A Forum Member PM’d myself about a Supplier of D.U.C.C Cable. I can’t reply to mails that arrive in my Personal Account and Mails are not shown to me within the forum. Additionally I can’t send a PM within the forum. The Link will be a beneficial source of info for the PM Inquirer. As a Wire Type used as a signal path on a cable, it will be beneficial to the sent signal to augment a Holographic ( me terminology for this effect is ethereal ) perception of an End Sound produced. http://www.acrolink.jp/english/products/7n_a2070.html Luxman also uses the same Wire Type and occasionally it is found as a PC 1 Wire directly from Mitsubishi. The Link is direct from Mitsubishi and shows for Product Code for the Wire Type. The Product Code could serve as method to finding the wire only from other sources? https://www.mitsubishi-copper.com/en/products/materials/mof_6n8/ Mitsubishi has in recent months produced a state of the art OFC Copper Wire that is Comparable but surpassing oxygen-free copper C10200, which has the highest electrical conductivity (101%IACS). |
When my Phon' was being designed over a period of time there was a few Circuits Produced of which a few were superseded. Even though the updated designs were a betterment ( Personal Preference as a result of listening evaluation). The earlier designs were introduced on occasion to measure where the differences being produced were able to be discerned for the impression of the End Sound being produced. A Friend after being demo'd my Phon' on a few occasions wanted to have a model in their own system. When having been demo'd an earlier Prototype, they remained smitten and after having it put into a Casing with a few component exchanges, had bought into the design at very very fair monies. My experiences of this Phon' is enjoyed as much as my own, there is only small differences to the voicing that I can detect in the different system. There may be a Prototype/ Prototypes that still remains, which can be discussed with Mr Sachs. Such a Model may become after a little attention, a Bespoke Design that will due to Pedigree always be a Saleable Pre Amp, offering much of the attraction of the Amp' offered to the broader community? |
I have an Allnic L-8000 DHT pre-amp, it is the end game pre for me. Before the L-8000 I had a used L-7000 that was phenomenal and before that a used L-3000 which was also exceptional. There is an Allnic sound and holographic is a big part of it. They are also almost un-tube like in clarity, transparency and quietness but retain the beautiful timbre of tubes. I believe the L-7000 (used) is under $10000. |
@vthokie83 Yes it does. Very well done and thank you. |
Soix Damn that it a difficult endeavor, but I'll give it a go. Both preamps are fully balanced 6SN7 based preamps (my preferred tube), are dead nuts quiet, background is black as night. Both have great soundstages tall and wide, both have a 3-D like effect with musicians and vocalists clearly placed on the stage, both are very transparent/detailed with even the smallest details coming through, but never ever sibilant. Both preamps are point to point wired without PCBs, use the very highest quality resistors, caps, transformers, volume controls, and wiring. Both are impeccably designed by extraordinary people. Aric Audio Motherlode XL - The Motherlode XL is full on fun from get go, has more attack and speed, is a little more (I mean slightly) more "tube like" compared to the Raven. That makes the Motherlode a little more "rich/full" with beautiful full tone. I prefer the Aric Audio over the Raven with solid state amps (CODA S5.5, Denafrips Thallo, Pass Labs, BAT Rex 300); and I like it equally well with most tube amps (except 300B) Raven - Is slightly more transparent and correct on tonality....neutral and slightly less tube like compared to the Motherlode, smooth and clean. It has a magical air about it, one reviewer called it "ethereal" to which I would agree if anyone can describe that. Like the Aric Audio, the soundstage is brilliant and maybe just a touch deeper; and like the Motherlode XL musicians and vocalists are believably placed on the stage. I liked the Raven with solid state amps, just slightly less than the Motherlode; and likewise the Raven is beautiful with tube amps. I will say that I preferred the Raven with the 2 300B amps I've heard (Sachs/Olson Blackbird monoblocks and Aric Audio 300B), and equally well with other tube amps (EL34, KT88, KT120) It comes down to personal preference and the gear you are going to run in my mind. If one had never heard the other preamp, you would believe you've heard the best preamp ever made. The differences are minor, and they are both brilliant. I hope this answers your questions Soix |
+1 @erice64 Listening at the moment to ATC SCA 2 preamp. Remarkable! Never on my radar until ATC dealer Tom at Big Ear recommended. Truly a classic SS beauty. Powerful Class A annihilating my Luxman C900u, which is quite good. Music simply emerges from blackness. Good hunting. |
https://exemplaraudio.com/products/preamplifiers/ It sounds like you are looking at budget preamps? Call John Tucker at eXemplar Audio. His exception SE preamp just might be impossible beat in its price range. I’m a sound stage junkie and this one will get you where you want to be. It pairs will with many high quality amps and should do just fine with your MSB. Also- Linear Tube Audio, Aesthetix, Accuphase, Audionet, VAC, Air Tight, Margules, Trafomatic, Audio Hungary, Vinnie Rossi |
@vthokie83 - Yes, I've read some of your posts on other threads and they've been very informative. I appreciate your opinions on these. Aric sure seems to put some serious mojo into his gear based on every single review or opinion I've read or seen about it by anybody. Not that people ain't been ravin' (sorry) 'bout the Raven, too. |
@vthokie83 What were the differences you heard between the Aric and Raven? |
Larsman I went on an extended preamp search myself last year, and this year have helped several friends upgrade their preamps as well.......must have tested at least 13 preamps. With that year long experience, here would be my choices in order: Aric Audio Motherlode XL $6,875 Don Sachs/Lynn Olson Raven $6,395 (Sold and assembled by Spatial Audio) Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme 1.4 $8,500 Supratek Grange $6,500 (The Cabernet model is a step down, but is a steal at $4,000 for the budget minded) Atma-Sphere MP-3 $6,500 BAT VK-80 $9,000 The Aric Audio Motherlode XL is the best preamplifier I have ever heard. Aric Kimball is a joy to deal, he uses the highest quality components, is point to point wired, and allows you to choose the wood for your preamp. I own this preamp as do 3 of my friends, it is magical in every aspect. Highly thought of most everywhere, and well reviewed. The Raven preamp is really close to the Motherlode XL, and 2 of my friends prefer it to the Motherlode XL It really is a brilliant. Also highly thought of in almost all circles, and well reviewed. Don and Lynn have decades of experience in preamp and amp design, and this is the result of a "no holds barred" approach. The Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme 1.4 is a preamp that that I could absolutely love and keep for a lifetime......if I had not heard the Motherlode and Raven. There is a ton of love for this preamp on forums, and reviewers love it too.....it's really really good. The SupraTek Grange, Atma-Sphere MP-3, and BAT preamps are also wonderful preamps. They are not in my top 3, but many many people own them and love them. I'd never fault anyone who prefers these preamplifiers. My good friend Patrick prefers his BAT VK-80 over any other preamp, and he has been with me on most of my journey.....and hears the same systems I do. |
@gkr7007 - I did indeed look into the Spatial Audio Raven, but it's too big for the space I have available; same reason I didn't look farther into the Aric Audio's preamps; if I had the space and could figure out some way around the lack of mute on the remote, I'd have bought a Motherlode XL. LTA MicroZOTL and Backert Rhumba Extreme both would fit nicely; in fact, I've already gone ahead and placed an order for a MicroZOTL for audition. |
@triton20trx and @ei001h - thanks - I know about tube rolling; I've upgraded tubes in both my Herron components and in my 2 tube headphone amps, including one with a couple of WE 300B's in it (and those were well worth the $1200). And yes, when I'm looking for a tube upgrade, my first stop is generally Brent Jessee. Been going to him for a lot of years now. |
Totally understand the budget constraints—but just a heads-up, you can actually save a lot by going for a first-generation Brama. There’s one listed on US Audio Mart right now for $20K. I’d consider offering $10–15K and see if the seller bites. These units come with a 10-year warranty, so you’re still well covered. It could be an incredible value if you’re looking for that top-tier tube pre without paying full price |
This has been my experience. If pursuing a tube preamp you can significantly change its sonic characteristics by using NOS tubes. This has allowed me to spend thousands less on the preamp itself and spend $500 on the primary preamp tubes. These vintage tubes are much better at producing a holographic soundstage than any new production Chinese or Russian they put in today’s preamps. I have used Brent Jessee to guide me on what matches my preamp but there a few others with experience and a good supply of vintage tubes.
|
