Suggestions for a holographic preamp?

@larsman One other tip when investigating preamps:

The output impedance is usually specified at 1KHz. But if you want to have the preamp play bass as well as it does the midrange, the output impedance at 20Hz is nice to know too. 

If the preamp has output coupling caps or an output transformer, its likely its output impedance is much higher at 20Hz; particularly in the case of the former. 

@invalid - I just checked out their website, and their product list is overwhelming! I'm not going to be doing any direct buys from Canada anyway (I love Canada, I just don't want to deal with international stuff).

And 1997 is calling them and it wants its web style back! That has to be one of the worst looking websites I've seen in a decade or more; they really should consider hiring a web developer to do an upgrade to the 21st century. 

@larsman check out space tech lab, there are many preamps to choose from on the website, Al the owner can customize any one of his models also. I like his reference series of preamps, he even has an 845 tube preamp, but that only has balanced outputs and no remote. Many of his models have remote and I'm pretty sure he can incorporate a mute function also. I have one of his lower model preamps, but it has great 3D sound and is also dynamic. He uses power tubes on the output stage of quite a few of his preamps.

@avanti1960 - thank you! Actually, quite a long time ago I had a modded SLP-05, and my other gear was different then too, but it just didn't do it for me as much as I'd have liked. Could have been any number of factors, but I did give it a go! 

@larsman 

sweet speakers and amplifier!  

i suggest my current preamp- the two chassis Cary Audio SLP-05 if you want a truly spatial sound stage.  

no matter which amp I have used with it over the years it never fails to deliver a huge top to bottom side to side sound stage with detailed cues of the location of musical elements in space.  

there are many NOS 6SN7 tubes you can swap as well as NOS GZ34 tube power rectifier.  All class A triode design with ultra low noise from the 2nd chassis power supply with premium R-core transformer.  The sound is also incredibly energetic and dynamic.  

@pindac - I checked out that link, and they've got those documents, but you've got to buy them. If it was electronics stuff, I wouldn't know what I was looking at anyway. 

I don't mind 'coloration' - I usually quite like it; I'm more interested in how the music makes me feel than how accurately it reproduces what the producer laid down. 

 @laaudionut - I might just do that; he might have some kind of solution to accomplish a remote muting functionality; I'm sure he's been asked about it before.

Aric Audio Motherlode...you should at the very least reach out to him.

A Post follows that was made in 2019.

"  In his Positive Feedback review of the EAR-Yoshino 868L line stage pre, the reviewer made the statement that, though the 868 provides XLR jacks for balanced operation, the pre-amp circuitry itself is single-ended. Designer Tim deParavicini in his manufacturer reply corrected the reviewer, stating that no, the 868 is a true balanced design. It is a commonly-held understanding by audiophiles and semi-pro hi-fi reviewers that a true balanced amp by definition has doubled parts. As atmasphere just said, that is a misconception and misunderstanding of what balanced is. A pre-amp can have single-ended circuits yet be true balanced in operation.

The real concern in any piece of gear is how the balanced inputs/outputs are implemented. In the EAR 868, Paravicini accomplished that goal via transformers. In his Music Reference RM-200, Roger Modjeski does so with a resistor network. Companies with lower standards typically create balanced inputs/outputs with the dreaded opamp, and with the expected sonic compromise. A higher retail price does not necessarily buy one balanced ins and outs NOT created with opamps. If possible, inspect the schematic of any piece of balanced gear you are considering buying, to see how it’s balanced connections are created, and if they conform to AES48. " 

The Following is the Industry Info that can be investigated.

https://www.aes.org/publications/standards/search.cfm?docID=44

@atmasphere - Wow, thanks for all that great information! And yes, I was leaning towards a balance preamp as well, so it can take advantage of the balanced XLR output of my DAC.  

Is there some spec I should look for to see if it supports that standard? 

I don't know why he couldn't have put a 'Mute' button on there - all I really require is volume and mute. 

@larsman Many mute circuits have the potential to mess with the sound.

Since your amp has a balanced input you might consider a balanced preamp as well. If you do, its helpful if that preamp supports AES48, the balanced line standard. The standard helps prevent the interconnect cable from having a 'sound' (coloration). There are not many tube balanced preamps that support the standard. Many audiophiles don't realize how important that is; getting rid of cable interactions in the system opens up transparency which contributes to a more holographic sound stage. 

@larsman 

I agree with the earlier post about your room being vital for the sound you want. Address any issues with it first. If you are considering SS Boulder is extremely good albeit neutral. I use their app on my tablet for volume control and it works great ! Good luck! 

BTW, I found the email and this is what Keith Herron says about his remote:

I am not aware of a universal remote that will work with the 360.  Our remote changes the code (a toggle bit) every other time you push the buttons (except for the volume level - and +).  This prevents switching back and forth when holding the button in too long.

@robshaw - Thanks for that info, Robert - keep rockin'! 

I have a rather nice system, all Rock and roll ONLY. Pass X250.8 and Bricasti M1 SE DAC with network card. Wont go into all the other pieces. Both systems controlled by Benchmark LA-4 preamps. 30 day trial period, made in Upstate NY 3K or so, Phone always  answered by a human (RORY, IS GREAT TO DEAL WITH. Adjustable gain, etc. Quality in and out!  Robert TN

@paradisecom The harmony remotes with hubs are great. No longer sold, but still supported (and available used) with most major components supported and learning. I have 3, 2 with hubs (harmony ultimate) on my 2 systems & and one (700) without a hub in the master. Been using them for years. Solid app, very reliable. A web site that provides all supported components. The hub allows you to control components inside a closed cabinet or components that do not have line of sight. It comes with two “hub extenders” for multiple cabinets or on top of your cabinet for your TV,  

@daveyf - Right again, Davey (and @soix ); I don't know why he couldn't have put a 'Mute' button on there - all I really require is volume and mute. 

@oliver_reid - I have Marten Parker Duos - they deliver that in spades; they do with my current preamp. 

@signaforce - if I go the PS Audio route, it would be to audition the new PMG Signature preamp.

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I've researched all the suggestions you all have made, thank you, and as of right now, I'm leaning towards a home audition of a Backert Rhumba Extreme 1.4 and/or an LTA MicroZOTL Level 3. 

I've never heard of a good universal remote (basic good, as in something from URC or ProControl) not being able to learn IR codes from another remote.  More than likely, an existing IR codes set was used for those remotes, especially if it is a small manufacturer.  It could be something as simple as a code set from an old Sony Trinitron tube TV.  It wouldn't matter.  As long as the receiving IR chipset can "see" and interpret the codes sent from the remote, it would work.

If the remote is RF, (rare, but possible) then that can be a different can of worms.  At that point, the OEM remote would be the easiest way to go.

The comment by Soix about holographic imaging was exactly what I had in mind when I made my comment about the Rogue RP-7 and RP-9 preamps.

i have also heard good things about the Backert preamps in this regard.

I have the BHK pre with none of the issues cited. Works wonderfully, comes with a great remote and compatible with my Harmony One universal remote. 

In my opinion, meaningful spatial imaging requires accurate speakers - rock solid phase accuracy through crossover regions and minimal coloration.

If you don't have that, a preamp is not going to deliver it.

ATC come to to mind

The Motherload does have a remote and only controls volume. 

@larsman   I believe the Aric Mother Lode preamp does have a remote control. Volume control, but no mute. 

@daveyf - makes total sense; that's why Keith Herron was reluctant to have a remote with his preamps until his customers demanded it, so he gave us this cheap tiny thing. Alas, I'm not interested SOLELY in SQ; I've got to be able to live with it functionally and practically as well. I was checking out Aric Audio's tube preamps, and he's the same way - no remote, all purity, but not for me. 

The CAT is a minimalist preamp, which is totally by design. Ken Stevens, ( Mr CAT) believes that things like a remote control are not what one wants IF one is interested solely in SQ. I agree with him.

@daveyf - I looked it up and it seems like a great preamp, but it has no remote control, and as I'm constantly having to change volumes and mute during the course of a TV/music session, it would not work for me. Thanks again for the suggestion; I had heard of Convergent Technologies, just not the CAT acronym. 

CAT would be Convergent Audio Technology, and the preamp would be an SL1. It’s been around awhile, so there are iterations.

https://www.catamps.com/

daveyf has it.

@larsman   www.catamps.com 

If I were the OP I would look for a used preamp.  A BAT VK 90t, Audio Research REF 6SE, or a Conrad Johnson GAT

@daveyf - I've not heard of a CAT preamp - please elaborate? 

With your budget, i would suggest looking for a used CAT preamp. The newer the better. This preamp will give you the virtues you are looking for.

My PrimaLuna EVO 300 did an excellent job creating a holographic soundstage, unfortunately I had to sell it due to a period of unemployment.

Thank you, @otimmons - all comments and suggestions are welcome - I always like to learn something new - and that's pretty cool about that Carver holography! 

I know you are looking for something different than this, but I had to throw it out there just because.  I have a 1992 Carver CT-17 preamp tuner with a sonic holography circuit. Bob Carver apparently invented an effect that he thought sounds better. It has an actual front-panel button labelled "Hologram." FWIW.

@pindac - you are absolutely correct, which is why I'm soliciting many opinions as well as checking reviews and forums. 

@joeycastillo - MicroZOTL is one I'll be considering, and I see they have a 30-day home tryout. 

Spacial Audio Raven has a 45-day return policy. 

For new gear, Backert has a 14-day trial on a Rhumba Extreme 1.4, and PS Audio has a 30-day trial for the PMG Signature. 

OP,

My recommendation is to try out Linear Tube Audio Microzotl. This is my pre-amp and for me, reproduces a holographic image well. As some had posted above, get their level 3 upgrade and it falls within your budget. One thing the Microzotl does that other Tubes amps may not (or may) do, is that it sounds like a cross between a Tube and solid state. I.E. It has details in the music and yet it has body on the instruments and singers. 

If you claim that your existing gear already has the ability to create space and dimensionality, then the Microzotl may be a possible candidate. Check out their website and see if the remote is up to your standards.

hope you get the right one. and please let us know what you get

Link Attached 

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650228738-ear-yoshino-868-preamp-with-fabulous-phono-stage/

The Spatial Audio Raven is off interest to myself, I would really like to experience it in use, hence, no ears in front of it does not encourage me to strongly suggest it can make a very good impression as has the EAR 868 has in a system belonging to another.

Synergy is what really matters and this is only to be found through trialling different devices in the home system within the dedicated listening space.

Not one recommendation or suggestion of investigation is going to bring the impression Synergy can create for an End Sound produced as a guaranteed outcome.      

Also, can anybody tell me anything about impedance matching between pre- and power amps? 

In general you want the input impedance of the amp to be 10x the output impedance of the pre.  BUT, the impedance varies by frequency and may go higher or lower than the stated number, so to be safe I’d look for the input impedance on the amp to be at least 20x the preamps’s output impedance if possible.  In general I think this is more likely to be an issue with tubes than solid state.  Hope this helps. 

@barts - thanks, but I specifically asked Keith Herron if a universal remote could be taught on this and he told me no, and I don't think it's because he wants to sell a few cheap remotes.

@cfarrow - yes, that ESP 360 is what I've got as well, and I upgraded the tubes via Brent Jessee. I love its sound, but I really hate that remote! I may try a few of these that have home-audition and see how they compare in my system and my listening environment. I will not be letting go of my Herron Phono VTPH-2, however! 

these are custom programmed and a universal remote will not work with the preamp.

If it’s a learning universal remote it should be able to learn any code, custom or not.  If you like your pre it’s surely worth a try, and again with Amazon if it doesn’t work you can easily return it.  I’d try this one for 10 bucks and just see — my guess is it will learn the Herron codes…

https://www.amazon.com/Chunghop-Universal-Learning-Function-L336/dp/B07C97YBBC

Hey @larsman ,

I agree with @soix on this one.  A learning remote is programmed by the remote you already have.  Put it in learning mode and point your current remote at the spot they designate on the new remote and it learns the code (button by button).

TV remotes have unique codes by manufacturer which makes it simple just put in the code and voilà.  

If you are determined to get a different pre then I believe an ARC REF6 used fits the bill.  Yes, that's what I'm using and it is a wonderful big sound.

Regards,

barts 

@larsman 

Remote?  Just buy another one or two from Keith.  I have his ESP360 reference and it does everything you want.  My soundstage width, depth and height are incredible and the dynamics and detail I am getting are off the charts good.  I have owned a lot of the gear mentioned on this thread and no way I would change out my Herron for any of these.  My feed back is pushing 1000 on A-gon, bought and sold a lot over the years. I have Tron 211 and Audiopax Model 88 amplifiers for reference, mHorn Mummy speakers, Wavelenght DAC with Sonore Signture streamer and SonicTransport for server.  I did upgrade the tubes in the Herron to Sieman’s 6dj8 tubes and it definitely was a step up over the stock tubes.

Also, can anybody tell me anything about impedance matching between pre- and power amps? 

Another recommendation for the Spatial Audio Raven (yes I have one). Think there's (ask 'em) 30/60 trial period. Raven is a special Pre.

Buying multiple backup remotes from Herron would be a solid option.

@soix and @oddiofyl - That would be ideal, but as I mentioned above: 

these are custom programmed and a universal remote will not work with the preamp. As of now, he says he can be contacted if one needs to buy a replacement remote, but when it's down to one guy and probably a limited supply of remotes.... 

@rmdmoore - thank you for that - I'd like to hear more about that LS-100. I've gone on YouTube and Dan Wright has videos talking about the LS-99 and the LS-300, but there is nothing I could find on the 100.  I guarantee any remote it has is more substantial than this - I wish I could post a picture of it, you'd laugh - and it would probably be able to be programmed with a universal remote. 

Again, thanks to everybody contributing suggestions; I have a few thousand dollars at the Music Room from another unit I'm returning (not a preamp) and I'd like to get something new or used (whether in stock now or likely to be in stock soon) from them to apply it to. They do have a number of those suggested. 

Any thoughts on McIntosh tube preamps in that general price range? I've never owned any McIntosh gear but the descriptions of some of them on forums and reviews sound like what I'm after too, and some even have a DAC and phono preamp, which may or may not be up to how I hear what I currently have. 

My Cary SLP05 with ultimate upgrade provides a very natural 3-D image in my system, right up there with any system I have yet heard. It helps to have excellent NOS 6SN7 tubes (in my case VT-231’s from Raytheon and black glass Ken-Rads as well as CBS-Hytron 5692’s). If you like listening to well-done live recordings of bands like Phish, Goose, etc. then I urge you to explore this preamp. 

Aesthetix Calypso Signature $7K - reload with sexy exotic small signal tubes, end search & enjoy over many endless listening sessions with multiple Negronis.
Just my opinion... 

Have a go for the ATC SC-2. Great bandwidth, no colourations, very lifelike, direct and 3D when in recording. Low output impedance so drives everything! Undervalued but really top of market. 

I have the ModWright LS100 and it does the things you're looking for. It's probably pretty equivalent to the Herron you're using. It suffers from the same issue though. The remote is a plastic piece of crap. It works but I'd you're looking. For something more substantial with regard to remote you'll have to look elsewhere. 

At the Monies being asked for the EARS 868 in the Link, this model is more that worthwhile being investigated.

There is not too many that are going to be capable to compete with this Model, if the Synergy is on par with how I know it can produce an End Sound in a System it was demo'd on.

The Class of the MSB S200 needs something quite special as the deliverer of the Signal to be processed.