Streamer only

@mclinnguy Interesting from the Antipodes article. According to that, even S/PDIF can (but maybe not always depending on the DAC) be reclocked by a downstream DAC. 

All I know is that both USB and I2S are asynchronous in nature, and I2S keeps the clock stream and data stream separate, instead of multiplexing them together like USB, so, in theory, I2S should offer a "cleaner" signal to the DAC or at least less overhead in processing, for less jitter.  Could I hear a difference? I'm not sure. 

But I'd be happy if more streamers in the $400 to $1100 range would offer USB or I2S outputs to feed an external DAC so we could be "done with" this issue and know for certain that the "better" clock we have paid for is doing its thing, along with having the bandwidth to do higher resolution files if we want. Thanks. 

I guess the OP is AWOL 🤔

@jerrybj Sweet. Post your impressions. In looking at the article posted below decide which output to use to your DAC- which DAC do you have?

Regarding this comment: @moonwatcher

One thing people seem to ignore (correct me please if I am wrong) is that to use the "better" clock in your external DAC over the one in a "cheap" streamer, you must use asynchronous USB or I2S, otherwise the clock in the streamer is doing the "driving". The use of Toslink optical or coax outputs from a streamer limits you to however good the clock in the streamer is. At least this is what Hans Beekhuyzen implied in a recent YouTube video of his.

In checking Antipodes articles it says this:

The implications of using different connections:

1. Ethernet: Using Ethernet means the music server only performs the Server App step and the DAC performs the rest.
2. USB: Using USB means the Server App, Player App and regeneration step are performed in the music server and precise-clocking is left entirely to the DAC.
3. S/PDIF, AES3 or I2S: Using S/PDIF, AES3 or I2S means the Server and Player Apps, regeneration and re-clocking are performed in the music server, and the DAC’s re-clocking is applied to a cleaner signal. However, remember that S/PDIF and AES3 have only low bandwidth transmission capabilities.

So according to Antipodes it appears USB and I2S are not similar, and I2S is more like AES3, at least with their streamers. I don't know whether this is industry standard or if different streamers would not clock it using I2S (?) 

I've put my money where my mouth is, and upgraded my streamer.

Against my better judgement (price wise) I'm in the process of purchasing an Antipodes K21. Was looking at Innuos Pulse and Lumin U2.

Should match well with the Innuos Phoenix USB.

Any thoughts or decisions from the OP? @pal 

I’ve just bought a streamer only NuPrime Stream 9. It works very good over WiFi connection but I prefer LAN cable connection. Unfortunately I get a display message UNSUPPORTED while trying to establish LAN cable connection. I tried factory reset of streamer, reset of my modem/router but didn’t work. Any suggestions?

This is off the Innuos site:

Don't want to hijack this thread. I too love my WiiM devices for what they are. But I don't see too many on here suggesting Cambridge Audio's $500 MXN10 or AXN10 as low-cost streamer options.  Stereophile has a review in the current issue and the guy liked the MXN10 very much, even used it with an inappropriate dCS DAC just for the heck of it to see how it would do. Given the retail price is roughly double that of the WiiM Pro Plus, can we surmise that the clock circuit in the Cambridge should be "better"? Anyone here have one to offer feedback?  Thanks. Oh, note that you can find "open box" MXN10s on Cambridge's eBay store for $399. 

@soix I’m going to take a wild guess / make an assumption and say the DDC reclocks the signal before the output if this is your DDC (Hermes).

@soix sorry, I’ve not yet gone down the rabbit hole of using a DDC but might do that sometime, so I don’t have any first hand experience with using one. I’ve only watched the videos on Vinshine’s website and YouTube channel about the Iris.

My limited understanding is that the DDC "somehow" takes over the clock duties from both the streamer and the DAC, and the DDC’s better clock circuit does its magic to reduce jitter even further. This would happen over I2S and USB but not (if I understand correctly) Toslink Coax or SP/DIF Optical. Perhaps someone else on here can illuminate how this works and if it is in a setting or if it is automatic. Weekend is here. Enjoy the music.

Oh, here is one of the videos I watched regarding using the Iris with a Pontus II:

Best Seller • Iris DDC + Pontus II DAC (vinshine.audio)

One thing people seem to ignore (correct me please if I am wrong) is that to use the "better" clock in your external DAC over the one in a "cheap" streamer, you must use asynchronous USB or I2S, otherwise the clock in the streamer is doing the "driving".

@moonwatcher @audphile1 This is interesting and something I’ve wondered about.  I’m using a DDC to feed i2S to my DAC, so does that mean the clock in the DDC is bypassed and the clock in the DAC is the only one working?

@northbeach does the Innuos Pulse Mini support Tidal Connect? I've been trying to find a good streamer (less than $2K) that has USB outputs so the better clock in an external DAC can take over to reduce jitter.  Someone mentioned the Bluesound Node X has USB output, but I'm not 100% sure connecting it to an external DAC truly bypasses the clock in the Node.  Thanks. 

I can strongly recommend an Innuos PULSE.  The accompanying Sense app is the icing on the cake.  Works flawlessly with Qobuz.

@soix - Typically, but the RME ADI-2 DAC receives the 192K 24 bit toslink signal and utilize it without any drops. 

The WiiM Pro app is set to 192K output and it works a charm. The app also sees regular updates and is Roon Ready in my system. 

Another vote to start with a BS Node 130 $499 new and use your dac. It was less than a year after I got mine, I bought a better USB cable and then I bought the Teddy Pardo LPS. The cable made a big difference and the linear power supply made an even bigger! I think this combination gave me at least 80+% of what a $6300 Aurender streamer gives me in sound quality.

All the best.

I already had a DAC too and wanted a streamer better than my old Node.  The Sonore Micro-rendu, (or the ultra rendu) with the Small Green ComputerLPS, works  great.   As does the SOTM sms-200 Neo ($500) with the SGC power supply.    I’m using a Small Green Computer Sonictransporter I5 to run Roon AND Tidal.   Great tech support and its operation has been flawless.  

I learned in my wifi heavy area that the toslink is better sound quality (using a glass toslink cable) than coax to the DAC. The RME ADI-2 is able to play streams via BOTH inputs at 192K.

@romanesq I was under the impression Toslink is limited to 24/96. 

The suggestions of any Wiim (mini or pro) are a great first start.  I used my mini into my Bricasti DAC for quite some time.

I next was an early adopter of the Eversolo DMP-A6.  For what it is and what it can do for under $1000 it is very hard to beat. 

I thought I would upgrade relatively soon after that addition but am enjoying the Eversolo.  The final upgrade to my system would be a streamer 20x the cost of the A6.  But I realize I will not hear 20x the improvement because of diminishing returns and all that.

Happy listening!

Don’t overspend, especially at first. It’s something you have to use, know, understand, and analog logic doesn’t apply. There are a lot of uber expensive options out there that don’t add SQ and just address the nervosa.

After you know what you’re doing, feel free to pull out the wallet. Don’t start that way.

I’ve built a couple great PC streamers and many swear by their Raspberry Pi’s. But if you’re not interested in learning about PCs, I’d go for something like an IfI Zen or a Pro-Ject to start. Consider using Roon, which is one of the best things about streaming. Streamer has to be compatible.

Going to add to the comments pile here because sometimes people are looking for an answer to their question, not justification for what others are doing.

First, forget using any computer. Streamers are too good and too cheap not to utilize them and any good system will easily show the difference in improvement.

Generally, I side with lower priced streamers for most. I have a high end tube monoblock system using a WiiM Pro with an external LPS for it. That’s a cost under $250. It goes to optical audio to an RME ADI-2. It is fabulous.

I learned in my wifi heavy area that the toslink is better sound quality (using a glass toslink cable) than coax to the DAC. The RME ADI-2 is able to play streams via BOTH inputs at 192K.

The WiiM Pro deployed with an external LPS puts it on par if not better than the other options listed here. You simply can’t go wrong with it. My full range system never sounded better. (I also have a fiber optic connection now and that was a very nice boost to the overall streaming quality. In addition I use Cisco network switches cascaded to the WiiM Pro streamer with fiber optic cable between them. Another very nice bump in quality.)

The Optical Rendu option is also an excellent product that meets your $1,000 budget. Last, Blue Jean ethernet cables are top notch and inexpensive. Don’t go down that ethernet cable rabbit hole.

Happy listening!

I am using the Aurrender W20SE ($22K) streamer through the Audio Research Reference CD9SE as DAC and it sounds as good as my very good vinyl leg. Each step from a Mac book, to inexpensive streamer, to a $3K $5K, $10K, $13K, to my W20SE provided a very substantial improvement in sound quality, each worthy of the investment.

I’m using the Cambridge MXN10 into an Audio Research Reference CD9 cd player operated as a DAC. It cost $360 and sounds incredible.

I am using the SMSL SD-9 as a streamer only. It also decodes MQA and sends it to your DAC already decoded. It supports Tidal and Qobuz and has a sods card slot that you can put a 256 GB memory card. It costs 399 dollars and sounds great. I am using it to feed a Musicians Pegasus DAC connected to a Wired 4 Sound STI-500 to Magnepan LRS speakers. It sound very detailed and reveals all the finer points in the music. It also connects to the internet using wireless WiFi. 

I have the allo DigiOne Signature Streamer with a Shanti LPS. Do you hear a big difference between the DigiOne and your high end streamer? 

Thanks,

Steve

@moonwatcher +1

Roon Nucleus for $750 on HIFI shark.

One thing people seem to ignore (correct me please if I am wrong) is that to use the "better" clock in your external DAC over the one in a "cheap" streamer, you must use asynchronous USB or I2S, otherwise the clock in the streamer is doing the "driving". The use of Toslink optical or coax outputs from a streamer limits you to however good the clock in the streamer is. At least this is what Hans Beekhuyzen implied in a recent YouTube video of his.

The thing is, there aren’t many "cheap" streamers that have USB out other than those particular models of the Node that I’m aware of. (Not counting any home brewed, noisy, Raspberry Pi streamers). Figure that the clock in the Node X or his integrated is better than one in any of the WiiMs.

To the OP, you have a very good system. But it sounds like streaming is a "new fangled" idea to you. Perhaps you have a nice vinyl set up or play a lot of CDs. 

Given that streaming will likely "take hold" and you will love it and its convenience, I'd suggest getting at least a Bluesound Node (the ones with USB out if you need that).  Nothing wrong with the WiiM products for their prices - I have a couple of them in various rooms and one in my garage. They work excellently and their software puts that provided with some $4000 streamers to shame. 

The Node can always be sold or repurposed or given to an interested relative later on when you decide to get "something" better. Or you might be perfectly happy with the Node feeding your integrated and call it a day. 

You didn't mention if you have ethernet near your stereo or will have to use Wi-Fi. If Wi-Fi, beware the iFi Zen. Unless iFi has done anything to fix it in the last year or so, it has a lot of bad online reviews for its frustrating connectivity that drops often.

Ironically the extremely cheap ($99) WiiM Mini in my garage NEVER drops its signal.  

Have fun! You'll be discovering a lot of new music to enjoy. 

@soix 

I have a Node 130 and use the USB output to my DAC; two other posts mention the same thing.  You repeatedly have said the Node lacks the USB output, which only applied to older versions of the Node.

@pal 

I recently added a Teddy Pardo linear power supply to my Node, and it fleshed out the tone of instruments, added more power to the bass and reduced the slightly grainy textures of some content.  The Node by itself was quite listenable, though.  I would concur with others that a used Node 130 with an external power supply would be a great way to get a streamer within your budget that would perform above its cost. 

I haven't used other streamers, so I have no direct experience with other streamers' user interfaces, but I concur with others that the BluOS is quite good and is operated from an iPhone app.  Also, the Node is really designed for wi-fi streaming and allows you to see the strength of the wi-fi signal it receives, which is very useful since a strong signal is needed for optimal streaming of hi-res files.  Last night it showed me an unusually weak signal, so it took just a minute to reboot the Node by one touch of my iPhone, and that greatly increased the signal strength.  This occurs rarely, and only one reboot is generally needed.

The BluOS is supposed to allow you to add audio files from a hard drive to your BluOS library so you can use the BluOS to control listening to those files.  This is one area where the BluOS has not worked well for me.  It took hours with customer support to get that to work, and then it didn't last long. 

You can isolate your DAC from your computer quite easily.  The majority of the the noise generated by the computer is in  the power line that runs side by side with the data lines inside the cable.

A simple $5 USB adapter that removes the power from the cable and a powered USB hub does the trick for me.  With the proper  playback software my USB PC sounds better than the PI2AES using AES / EBU, I2s or coax.

I have the Innuos Pulse Mini that is a Streamer-Only. I sought the same for the reasons you’ve indicated. My Pre-Amp and DAC are Naim and I really appreciate that sound. The Innuos Sense App is hard to beat. The quality of music complements the Naim Pre-Amp and is certainly a step above Bluesound and others in the sub $1,000 category [Most of which also have a DAC therein which diminishes the $$ going towards your goal / pursuit]. The Pulse Mini runs for about $1,500. I also have the Innuos LPS that can work with either the Innuos Zen Mini or the Pulse Mini.

LUMIN U1 mini. Find one on the used market. The Lumin app is worth the price of admission.

@alvinnir2 I do! She was great. In a way, I liked the typo, because there are streaming options for $100. Not great, but doable. Viz., 

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/how-to-build-your-own-low-cost-high-performance-streamer/

To the OP:  Beware those who try to shame you into spending a lot on a streamer simply because you've got a lot invested in other parts of your system.  The logic only holds if one believes there are material differences in the sound of streamers.  That is itself a somewhat controversial topic, which has been discussed and argued about on this forum and others ad nauseum. 

Let me know if you're interested in educating yourself further on this topic; I would be happy to point you to several other threads where both sides of the issue are explained pretty comprehensively.  As you could probably guess, my own view is that streaming is an area where the greatest amount of misinformation and overspending is occurring these days.  (And for the record, I've been streaming since 2004.) 

@randalljkrebs1 Never had a problem with mine. I’ve had more problems with BlueSound Nodes and I’m not knocked them. I don’t think you can beat the ifi streamer at that price point. Just my opinion and I have an Esoteric Network player in my main system. 

If you are just starting out with streaming, and want to get in under $1,000 here are some decent choices;

Bluesound Node - Make sure it is the 3rd generation "Node 130" or Node X, as the older Node 2 and 2i do not have USB output.....they have the connector, but USB is not activated. Several have mentioned a linear power supply, and I agree. I currently still use a Node 130 with LHY linear power supply, and a Denarips Iris DDC to great results. A Node 130 can be found used for under $400, and the LHY LPS would add $279. The Node software is some of the best available, and you can probably sell the Node 130/LHY LPS for not much less than you bought it for

Eversolo DMP-A6 is well thought of, and can be upgraded with an LHY LPS if you wish to extract more sound quality later.....about $850 new, and really hard to find used. I'd read some reviews there.

You've already got some other excellent recommendations. I will eventually upgrade my Node 130/LHY LPS/Iris DDC at some point.....but I find no need to do so immediately, I really do like this combo

Orchard audio has an excellent Streamer for $1,200 and it also has an excellent internal DAC  I would be surprised if the Orchard audio DAC didn't out perform the DAC you have i your intergrated amplifier  Orchard Audio has a 30 day trial period Also you could call Leo (owner) at Orchard Audio 

@pal If you have an apple iPAD or iPhone you can go USB into the 585 and use the native Qobuz app to test out streaming to see if you like it before letting the peoples here talk you into spending a wad of cash just because you got a nice integrated.  Then when you want crank the nob on SQ go for the suggestion provided.  

@hilde45 Oops, I misread the $1000. LOL Do you remember the character from the old days of SNL, Roseanne Roseanadanna.  " I thought you said xxxx, never mind"

@gkelly.  +2.  Someone running Levinson electronics should buy something better grade.  Lumin, Innuous or comparable or you will be upgrading soon.

If 585 is Roon ready you may not need a streamer to try out streaming with Qobuz. You’ll need a computer where you can install Roon and make that your core machine. Free trial for 30 days. Yes additional subscription cost after but at this price point you’ll most likely not find anything that will beat this both sonically and from the UI standpoint.

If the 585 isn’t roon ready or you don’t want to go the Roon route, and or you still want a dedicated streamer, you can try Lumin U1 Mini around $1000 used. Here’s one example.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650088998-lumin-u1-mini-streamer/
 

I will also give a shoutout to the Bluesound Node. I find the Aurender finicky when power is lost or the internet goes down and up. It sometimes requires multiple rebooting and needs to restore itself. This can result in a 20 minute or so delay in getting music. The Bluesound software is more robust and the unit actually sounds pretty good. I use it in my bedroom stereo with a $100 power cord.

@benanders , my laptop is about 5 years old, I bought it specifically to drive my Schiit Yggdrasil as it used SSD instead of a disk drive and I used it solely with battery power. I was stunned by the increase in low level information, especially allowing me to hear overtones and spatial information. I essentially parked my turntable after getting the Aurender. I must say that the result was exactly as my dealer predicted- Jeff Fox, owner of Command Performance, and Jon Archer had both told me about their own extensive journeys trying to make commercial computers into streamers, with Jon having worked extensively souping up a Mac Mini (my original attempt as well).

As they both predicted, the Aurender was astonishingly better!

@benanders , my laptop is about 5 years old, I bought it specifically to drive my Schiit Yggdrasil as it used SSD instead of a disk drive and I used it solely with battery power. I was stunned by the increase in low level information, especially allowing me to hear overtones and spatial information. I essentially parked my turntable after getting the Aurender. I must say that the result was exactly as my dealer predicted- Jeff Fox, owner of Command Performance, and Jon Archer had both told me about their own extensive journeys trying to make commercial computers into streamers, with Jon having worked extensively souping up a Mac Mini (my original attempt as well).

As they both predicted, the Aurender was astonishingly better!

Why are we trying to put bias ply tires on a Ferrari? You have good equipment don’t let your fear of the unknown prevent you from wasting your money. Save your nickels and get a quality streamer. I am a INNUOS fanboy but The aurender crowd is popular here too. 

I can vouch for the Project Stream Box S2 Ultra.

A very good streamer, reasonably priced, that performs above its price point.

I'm looking at upgrading in the future, but will have to spend more than double the cost for a reasonable improvement.

Ifi steamers sound great when they work….

ifi makes a streamer that is in the $300 range that’s excellent, and will give you enough of a savings to purchase a nice ethernet cable and or usb cable to round out a really high performing unit for very little money. I have one mated with their dac in one of my vintage systems and I’m astounded by it’s performance for the money. IMO it out performs the Node. Hope this helps.  

My NODE N130 has USB out. I use it every day.