I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
There is absolutely nothing toxic about ASR culture. We thrive on information and knowledge about audio products, engineering and research. If you walk in dismissive of all that, then you will get strong pushback. It is no different than going to your doctor, claiming to know more than him because you know your body and he doesn’t. Most doctors would throw you out of their office if you said that. The toxicity then, is yours, not ours or your doctors.
Why are you here trying to play innocent, pretending to walk the high road n all? Who do you think you’re trying to fool? Does that "inner voice" of yours not let you sleep if you don’t convert the infidels on this forum? Or perhaps, Revel sales are slowing down Madrona? Looking for more donations/donors perhaps?
Go back to your own house and find some peace. On your way out, tell everybody here why you were banned from every audio forum out there. Tell them something about that "inner voice" of yours (you know the one... that goes way back down memory lane). I could characterize it with one 9 letter word, but, i’m sure you’ll give it away soon enough by yourself.
Amir has an opinion like anyone else. He wraps that opinion in some pretty paper that he calls science. His weak minded followers seem to overlook his lack of credentials and his inaccurate metrology methods.
Weak minded? Is that the level of respect you have for your fellow audiophiles? They better think like you or they are not worthy?
As to my background, it is in my signature on ASR:
Pretty sure that makes me qualified to test audio gear. Go ahead and link to the background of any subjective reviewer who you think a) has designed audio gear and b) is more qualified than me.
@botrytisWhy are you defending him? Wake up and smell the coffee. Learn to think for yourself. There are other YouTube sites that do proper measurements of audio gear. Visit some of them and see the difference.
Oh no. A Golden Ear has spoken. Whatever will Amir do...? ;-)
Insulting people will not help...Using the dismissing epiteth
"golden ear" about audiophiles and music lovers here will not help...
We assist everywhere in the world to the increasing dismissing attitude toward human ability in favor of the techno-cult religion rising...
ASR reviews are useful as are useful "golden ears" opinions because we are all human...
It is stupid to relinquish any tool measuring information...
But it is no less stupid to use only one type of measures about the gear without taking into account our own trained hearing in a complex acoustic environment ... ( i created my own room then i am trained enough to hear what i need for designing my room/system)
Take the despising expression "golden ear" where it belong where no one could look for it ...
Thanks for Amir reviews.... But i will let his ideology where it belong...
Acoustics and psychoacoustics rules audio not ideology of the "subjective" or alleged "objective" kind ...
I myself are interested in hearing theories as basis for audio... Not on any tool in particular... Guess why ? 😊
Give these goons a 128 kbps mp3 file, a 10 dollar Bluetooth speaker (set in on a cardboard box from Walmart) and a 2 dollar DAC. They will measure it and attain audio nirvana.
"Message to golden eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time" with 361 likes
Here is the content of that thread's post. Observe the tone of these goons.
Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You bought the cables and the little bridge thingies for them to sit upon and the benefits were magical. You bought the $1000 IEMs that only truly sang after 250 hours of burn-in. Not 200 hours...or 225 hours, but 250 hours! It must be that for the magic to appear! You converted your entire music library to super high res and enjoyed the blissful new details that never were revealed by the awful, cludgy mess that was 16/44 cd. Never have your ears been assaulted by the likes of bluetooth audio or lossy mp3! You searched endlessly for the perfect dac...the dac that truly brought the magic! You bought one after another, each more expensive than the last, searching for the one, true dac that sounded better than all the rest...
And then you arrived here...and posted about your dac discovery, and were told that a dac shouldn't sound like anything at all! Suddenly your audio reality came crashing down around you. How can this be? Why shouldn't a dac sound great?? Why would expensive dacs even exist if they all sound the same??? Wounded, you lash out angrily! It's idiocy! It's retarded! These people have dead ears! It hurts. We understand. It's been a long time and you've spent a lot of money, all for naught. But once the pain diminishes and you've had time to deal with your emotions just give it some thought. Do some reading here and once your ban is lifted, maybe ask a few questions. Instead of locking your eyes shut against the bright light of objectivity...just open them up a little. Just a squint! Let a bit of that light in and bask in a warm, tubey glow that actually means something! Perhaps, as with many of us, a weight will begin to lift off your shoulders. Perhaps there is freedom in this new reality! You might discover that there is a different way...a way that wields real magic. A way that actually answers questions and reveals truth while at the same time leaving your wallet fat and happy! Welcome my friend. Welcome to ASR where the truth shall set you free!
Amir has an opinion like anyone else. He wraps that opinion in some pretty paper that he calls science. His weak minded followers seem to overlook his lack of credentials and his inaccurate metrology methods. Correct me if I am wrong, but Amir has never designed and built an audio component. He has not demonstrated the ability to listen and review audio components nor has he been published outside of his own u-tube channel. The most remarkable thing about Amir is that he has accomplished so much notoriety with so little.
Oh no. A Golden Ear has spoken. Whatever will Amir do...? ;-)
@tonywingaAmir, I believe was involved audio codecs in MS Windows, so he has some expertise in sound, etc. Amir could correct me, if I am wrong.
What audio device HAVE YOU designed? Since you are throwing shade, it is just fair.
Amir is using a Klippel device, which most audio companies are using for measurements now, since anaechoic chambers are so expensive to build and maintain.
I own a few speakers ASR has reviewed and agree with both the measurements and listening impression.
this JBL 590 review is pretty spot on. Great for the money but so so in absolute terms. I have A/B my own 590s agents my own 4367 and 228be all in the same room. All have spins and some kind of review on ASR. I agree with pretty much everything stated on them.
“It is more difficult for me to assess speakers in our living room but I thought the midrange and highs were unimpressive. Not bad. Or anything I could put my finger on. I just didn't enjoy all of my tracks as I do with very performant speakers. Again, keep all the caveats in mind as you read my subjective impressions.“
Amir has an opinion like anyone else. He wraps that opinion in some pretty paper that he calls science. His weak minded followers seem to overlook his lack of credentials and his inaccurate metrology methods. Correct me if I am wrong, but Amir has never designed and built an audio component. He has not demonstrated the ability to listen and review audio components nor has he been published outside of his own u-tube channel. The most remarkable thing about Amir is that he has accomplished so much notoriety with so little.
Many of us aren’t arguing the measurements. I’m arguing that Amir and ASR have a toxic culture that permeates other audio forums with condescending tones that have been normalized and promoted at ASR.
There is absolutely nothing toxic about ASR culture. We thrive on information and knowledge about audio products, engineering and research. If you walk in dismissive of all that, then you will get strong pushback. It is no different than going to your doctor, claiming to know more than him because you know your body and he doesn't. Most doctors would throw you out of their office if you said that. The toxicity then, is yours, not ours or your doctors.
Many days we celebrate on ASR for discovering something new. Latest example is a DIY speaker that blew us away in its performance despite its very low cost:
The speaker not only measured great, it sounded great in my listening tests. There is nothing but happiness as a result of this. Someone like you coming in to pick a fight is not what we are about. But if you engage us that way, as I mentioned in the above post, we will hand your hat to you. Not because we shout louder but because we have the research and data on our side. If that is cause for unhappiness, then don't visit ASR.
"Just look at his image on the ASR site. A Geisha with a sneer. His intent is pretty clear with that alone."
That is no geisha. She is a gorgeous bride getting married at a Shinto shrine in Ueno park in Tokyo:
Different couples get married every half hour there. They put them through stock poses which is boring. I waited for the break between pictures to capture this lovely picture of hers.
There was no intention behind picking this picture for my Avatar other than this being one of the prized images in my photography portfolio. It shows beauty, culture and tradition. There is zero negativity in it much less what you are reading into it.
My intent on ASR is to bring reliable facts and data into the conversation about audio fidelity. Many love that as evidenced by massive growth of ASR in such a short period of time. Naturally, if your views are based on anecdotes, and stuff you have read online, and you are library of audio research and engineering is empty, you are going to see them opposed. You are welcome to stick to your opinion but don't go making stuff up like you did above. You get your hat handed to you that way. 😁
I discussed enough for 10 days here with Amir and his acoustics knowledge is around DSP not basic concepts distinguishing human hearing from Fourier Maps...He does not even to understand them because they are qualitative concepts based on real human hearing abilities in the field. These concepts are useless for his reductionist ideology.
it is a man who sincerely convey an ideology as pure truth.
This ideology begun to destruct human lives in a visible manner now : it is techno cultism conflated with and then replacing science...Most people dont have the basic knowledge necessary to see this...
Intelligence does not means wisdom ...
Knowledge cannot be reduced to science save by ideologue like Popper . I prefer real scientist from formation to political propagandists as Polanyi and Goethe were .
i will stop here but techno cultism is a plague and the introduction of A.I. will make this way worse...It is easy for engineers to put into people head that inside of this statistical blackbox of A.I. trained is an intelligence superior to man. Especially with the prodigious improvement of many basic fields. We will become the tools of A.I. it is already the case. A.I. will less align on us than us on it . Narrow materialist mind will call that the progress and the future. Now guess on who are aligned the big corporations hubris for power ? No not on science as Polanyi or Goethe, but on techno cultism as religion with A.I. as God all that to control free human spirit and bent it to the will of the few.
So ASR is definitely influencing this hobby in the Internet era, and as with who lives in the biggest houses and drives the newest cars in my city, it’s helping tip the balance of power and influence in this hobby for the interested public and new generations of audiophiles from artists, musicians, designers and pretty much anyone with good listening skills to… engineers and computer algorithms. This makes me sad. If you were to spend anytime on ASR, you would gather that ears need not apply, their days and role in the hifi buying decision process are… over. No, seriously, if it can’t be measured by this or that analyzer, it can’t have value. Period. Now Amir may not say or think that, but the bulk of the discussion on his site adheres pretty closely to this line.
Amir has gently poked fun at one of my posts on ASR regarding some character of sound of Schiit Mani 2 phono preamp, probably something about soundstage… while others have been extraordinarily sarcastic and blatantly dismissive of any subjective comment I might make comparing the sound attributes of say, one DAC compared to another when they both measure “perfectly”.............
In summary, I do think measurements are critically important and a great place to start your audio reproduction journey. To that end, sites like ASR provide a valuable service. I do also think there are elements of this hobby and equipment design that are both not fully quantified or measurable, yet, and where art and subjective listening add real value. My concern is that absolutist worship of measurement over listening will lead many to miss out on some of the more pleasurable elements of fun, enjoyment, and discovery this hobby has to offer. I am definitely for less arguing and more listening.
@erik_squiresthanks for initiating this thread, as an amateur speaker builder I appreciate your post and thoughts. @amir_asrthanks for posting here with your responses and input - I have spent a fair bit of time on your site over the last few years and I am a member. I have been reading and posting on Audiogon forum for getting close to twenty years, and have been into audio reproduction since I could climb on a chair and operate my fathers Garrard/Fisher hifi stashed up high in the hall closet. @ricevs, @mrdecibeland @pickindoug’s comments resonate for me and I appreciate your perspectives.
The reason for my increase in visits to ASR has to do with recent Internet searches on specific gear of interest taking me to the site. Repeatedly and consistently. So ASR is definitely influencing this hobby in the Internet era, and as with who lives in the biggest houses and drives the newest cars in my city, it’s helping tip the balance of power and influence in this hobby for the interested public and new generations of audiophiles from artists, musicians, designers and pretty much anyone with good listening skills to… engineers and computer algorithms. This makes me sad. If you were to spend anytime on ASR, you would gather that ears need not apply, their days and role in the hifi buying decision process are… over. No, seriously, if it can’t be measured by this or that analyzer, it can’t have value. Period. Now Amir may not say or think that, but the bulk of the discussion on his site adheres pretty closely to this line.
Amir has gently poked fun at one of my posts on ASR regarding some character of sound of Schiit Mani 2 phono preamp, probably something about soundstage… while others have been extraordinarily sarcastic and blatantly dismissive of any subjective comment I might make comparing the sound attributes of say, one DAC compared to another when they both measure “perfectly”.
I started my hifi habit by pouring over and being obsessed with spec sheets, and I have always measured the in-room performance of speakers I have bought or built, or when trying to integrate subs into two channel systems. I still look at measurements in reviews if available to see if a piece of gear follows sound design principles. BUT, as my understanding of how everything does matter, including the room, gear matching, vibration control and cabling, I have become really careful at testing changes to my system, retaining changes that make a difference, and rejecting those that don’t.
I have found that different cables can sound different in my systems, with some cables making things better, some cables making things worse, and some having no effect. I assemble power cables from different off the self components, and some of them sound remarkably different from the others. If someone cannot not hear the difference, they are in the wrong hobby.
And for me, speaker cables can affect how I perceive soundstage in my room. Different DACs also change how I perceive soundstage in my system. Sharing these subjective “findings” on ASR or other “science-based” Internet forums is met with considerable indignation, and if I persist I am accused of sealioning or worse. When I note that I have done double blind tests with digital cables that showed deeply overlapping results on the qualities of the sound produced with sighted tests they are dismissed as “poorly designed”.
Some of the strongest critics are those with careers in the professional sound recording or production field who are experienced and knowledgeable, and therefore hard to dismiss. They are quite comfortable in their certainties that all modern DACs, amplifiers and cables sound the same unless they are “badly broken”, and they will cite numerous double blind tests that “prove” they are right. Pointing out that those results are not universal brings intense criticism of the individuals responsible or involved in tests that support observed differences in, say cables. It comes off as a rather passionate defense of the castle walls, and makes me wonder how good our recorded music could sound if greater care was placed on how it is recorded and with what equipment?
I have decided the only way to challenge this freight train of thought is to mount some well designed listening tests that would meet the rigor suggested by Amir and others. One of the problems I see with previous group tests of gear and cables is that the subjects are not necessarily familiar with the room or the equipment, and therefore don’t have a solid baseline to judge subtle differences or changes. If multiple subjects are listening in the same room, not all of them can be located in the sweet spot, and will therefore not experience soundstage reproduction in the same way. These are logistical challenges that must be overcome to run an effective ABX/double blind test. I will not have time to take on such a task until I retire, but I am certain it can be done.
In summary, I do think measurements are critically important and a great place to start your audio reproduction journey. To that end, sites like ASR provide a valuable service. I do also think there are elements of this hobby and equipment design that are both not fully quantified or measurable, yet, and where art and subjective listening add real value. My concern is that absolutist worship of measurement over listening will lead many to miss out on some of the more pleasurable elements of fun, enjoyment, and discovery this hobby has to offer. I am definitely for less arguing and more listening.
I thoroughly appreciate what ASR does to cover the "measurables", even if what Amir measures is not something I can hear. Conversely, I can hear that which Amir cannot measure. And many times I've been confounded by a disconnect between measurements and hearing.
Beautiful 10k square wave. Sounded dull and lifeless with the 3.6R. Then connected an Eico HF-89, and suddenly there was sparkle, life, slam, soundstage, and air. Yet the two amps measured nearly the same. Conclusion, measurements and listening are both useful tools. If two pieces of gear sound the same, then I'll pick the one with better measurements. I'll always pick the one with the better sound, regardless of measurements.
I'm a vintage guy that enjoys vintage gear. I'm well aware of the s/n limitations of most tube amps/preamps, yet I find they present the music in a most enjoyable way, whether I'm listening to Altec 604-8G via SET, SEP, or vintage monoblocks, with the alternate system Magnepan 3.6R with tube or SS amps from 50 wpc on up. As a tech, I service and measure all of the gear that crosses my bench. On that note, I thoroughly appreciate what ASR does to cover the "measurables", even if what Amir measures is not something I can hear. Conversely, I can hear that which Amir cannot measure. And many times I've been confounded by a disconnect between measurements and hearing. For example, I had a Mc 240 on the bench. Measured very close to 50 wpc at the edge of clipping. Beautiful 10k square wave. Sounded dull and lifeless with the 3.6R. Then connected an Eico HF-89, and suddenly there was sparkle, life, slam, soundstage, and air. Yet the two amps measured nearly the same. Conclusion, measurements and listening are both useful tools. If two pieces of gear sound the same, then I'll pick the one with better measurements. I'll always pick the one with the better sound, regardless of measurements.
@prefabI also never buy anything without research. I do it for it all. I have seen too many of my friends, get on the equipment treadmill. They buy on a whim and are disappointed.
I have done this since I was a teenager. I was taught an educated consumer is a smart consumer. To me, audio is no difference.
I hope your system gives you joy, when you listen. After all, that is what we use it for.
Your friend does contribute, in fact he even did me a solid once. However the skeptical in me responds everything matters when everything is for sale. There are plenty of examples where everything did not. But someone had a scheme and blind faith equaled dollars not well spent. Again the median way produces the wisest course of action.
As to internet intercourse here I think it has gotten much better. Would love to have congenial Platonic dialogs but maybe that ship has sailed.
@prefab- I don’t go to ASR much - maybe once in a blue moon. But if a speaker is peaky, I can get headaches from listening. At AXPONA this year, so many rooms were so bright, or too much midrange, I was starting to get a headache (similar to migraines). I would walk in, I could feel it coming on, and would walk right out of the room It doesn’t happen often, but that weekend was it was happening. THAT is what I go on. Since it hasn't really been figured out since it happens maybe twice a year but when it does, nothing helps.
@botrytis Soooo, if audition two speakers. One set you love the performance of, by your listening. Then later, you go to ASR and find the "klipple" readings rate the one you did not like higher,...Which one you gonna buy?
Lol
And no one is suggesting that you not believe in science.
@coralkong - Sorry - I believe both are important. I also believe in science. Science tells us that the brain fills in much of what we don't hear, when expectation bias is involved, and expectation bias is involved 24/7.
Your ’involving’ quote is subjective not objective. That is why I say it takes both listening and measurements. What you say still does not take away from what I said.
I have heard the Reynaud's and thought eww - what not my cup of tea. Just me and what I said about them is very subjective. Not everyone likes the same thing. That is why there are different speaker manufacturers. You like them great - enjoy that is all that matters. It is all about the music anyway, not equipment to me.
People seem to think their way is always right. For them yes, for others no. The old saying, 'there is more than one way to skin a cat' is truer than ever.
@botrytis Measurements are not necessarily valid either. I had a pair of Kef LS50 meta for about a year. This is an ASR favorite. I found it uninvolving. Neutral but boring. Poor Soundstage. Poor imaging. Etc. I got a set of Jean Marie Reynaud Bliss Silvers. Panned by ASR. Initially I detected some mild irregularities in the upper mids. I got used to them. But the Soundstage is broader, more dimensional, and imaging is far more precise. And I found the rhythmic aspects far more appealing. They grab me every time. ASRs Measurements paradigm was not helpful or accurate. I have had the JM Reynauds for about six months now. I added an Audio Resear VT60 to the system. Even better.
@gooseEars can lie. I mean the number one hallucination is hearing.
Measurements can help with expectation bias.
At Axpona, this year, so many speakers were so bright - I realize it is also the environment, but it was telling how many speakers lift in the treble range.
Toro3, I have always had very positive interactions with the knowledgeable people at ASR and never experienced condescension. Sometimes they do get impatient with those whose attitude is “Don’t confuse me with the facts, I know I’m right.” If you look around you will see people who are absolutely enraged at Amir. I bought a Topping DX 7 pro a while back on his recommendation and love if as much as my RME. On the other hand, I have enjoyed Rogue tube components he would probably dislike. In the end one has to agree with the concept “To each his own”, but I remain very grateful to ASR for sharing their perspective and greatly enjoy the site and its many knowledgeable adherents.
I indicated in my one post on this thread that I was done here. I do have a few things to add. I currently am down to 24 power amplifiers (from a collection of about 100). 2 of these 24 (not my particular samples), have measured poorly and have been scrutinized over at ASR. Listening to, and through these 2, I greatly enjoy what these amplifiers bring to the table. There is not a single amplifier out there that would have a problem powering my speakers. Each of my many amplifiers, all showcase ( 1 ) a different tone, ( 2 ) a different 3D soundstage, ( 3 ) a different rhythm ( prat ), ( 4 ) a different dynamic, ( 5 ) a different ability to control the 15s in the doghouses, which includes extension, sustain, under or over damping, etc., ( 6 ) playing loudly...1 of my amps can easily clip ( a highly modified Citation 12, operating at 1wpc in Class A ). Some are airier, some are more immediate, and on and on and on. In common...they are all amazingly quiet, through the speakers...black background. I have my handful of favorites (most listened to) out of the 24, and the 2 over at ASR are in this group. So, are measurements important? I definitely think so. Am I listening to distortion? Obviously, I am. What is the outcome of this, as some have stated above, including me in my 1st post). I cannot rely on measurements, when it comes to my music system. I know this thread was started about speaker measurements, but it is what it is. It is a common thing, that communication on threads, easily takes us off course. Another thing. At 70 years old, with much experience in / with the audio field, and a lover of the music, 1st, and the gear, 2nd, I am disgusted by the amount, and increase of the hostility between members and posters. And it is getting worse, by the minute. When I started out, it was fun, fun, fun. When I listen to my system, it is fun, fun, fun. I believe wholeheartedly in modifications, and have been doing them since I was 13 years old. I remember because it was the year of my bat mitzvah, and I was running a pair of vertical Cornwall, while my dad was running a pair of AR3a. We enjoyed both systems, btw. Last thing. Besides Amir, STOP getting down on RICEVS. The man knows what he is talking about. EVERYTHING MATTERS. He shares his knowledge on here, without charging a dime, and if you do not believe in his findings....just leave it alone. The negativity here, really requires a thick skin. With a pursuit to " perfect sound " (stop deluding yourselves folks), let’s all make an effort to calm things down, and enjoy the comradery....to a passion we all have. I guess I am done now. My best, MrD.
Agree with most you say @rtorchia. I haven’t seen too many “subjectivist whose favorite components get a negative review on ASR review become angry” across the various audio forums I frequent. By no means is this absolute as I’m sure this happens, but this didn’t happen in this thread when Amir contributed with his condescending and authoritative tone regarding his views between a Topping D90 and a Denafrips Terminator:
If in all of those 40 years, you had spent just one day doing a listening test blind, you would have been so much better off from that moment on. But no, you allowed your eyes and brain to interfere. And with it, arrived at the wrong conclusion, leading to wasting money left and right on things like that Denafrips DAC.
Many of us aren’t arguing the measurements. I’m arguing that Amir and ASR have a toxic culture that permeates other audio forums with condescending tones that have been normalized and promoted at ASR.
I’m a great admirer of Amir and the work that he does at ASR. Even if one is a subjectivist and judges everything based on their hearing alone, it’s still interesting to hear how the scientific measurements compare. It strikes me as odd that subjectivists whose favorite components get a negative ASR review become angry. They enjoy what they are listening to so why care? I have Larsen 6.2 speakers that Amir would most likely pan, but I would still appreciate hearing his opinion. I’m also very distrustful of anyone who tells me that human sensory perception is the ultimate source of knowledge (opinion, perhaps) but that is a purely philosophical issue.
Unfortunately the Human is only coming to terms as a modern population that they are not in control and all influences on the individual are not from their choices.
There is much much more, and survival / self preservation is one, where attractive Stimulus is the reward for putting oneself in an environment the Mind interprets as secure and safe.
Ambient noise/sound are indicators to the Brain and effects the chemistry that follows. All 10K - 12K chemical reactions per second.
This is not a bitter pill to swallow, it is quite liberating when willingness to accept develops.
Yes acoustics are obviously important but this thread is not about acoustics.
For the record here are the things one has control over that I think matter most for good sound.
1. Good quality well engineered gear designed to work well together from source to speakers. Good quality implies gear has a good handle on distortion. Many speakers will qualify here. You choose.
2. Amplification that can get the most out of the speakers.
3. Room acoustics. You can do some treatments to help. Then after that smart application of DSP can help adjust for the rest, tailor the sound to personal preferences as needed, and help one get off the merry go round of changing gear.
mapman you cannot understand something if you dont read about it and study few minutes.. i posted many articles above ...😊
Amygdala dont explain acoustics...
my Amygdala dont explain my books choices or my musical preference nor what i detect in sound speech no more that the way i appreciate a good system in a good room .
A word as amygdala explain nothing ... It is not false using it as i remark above , it is true it play a central role in our memory and emotion controls but this cannot explain sound qualities perceptive evaluation by itself alone ...
In general some forms of distortion are more undesirable than others. I suppose the Amygdala has something to do with that. It’s good to understand why and how we respond the way we do (each differently to some extent). So it’s true there is more to what appeals to us in sound than low distortion, but that does not change the fact that distortion exists and it’s also a good thing to understand that as well in each case. Distortion does matter. There are several pieces to every puzzle.
Between the amygdala and the ears canal and the brain/body processing of sound there is a world of processing...😊
Psychoacoustics explain it...
Read the many articles in my post above...
The reaction of a chalk board scratch is instinctive because there is no interesting and pleasing information to retrieve in it...
This does not means that all our reactions to a piece of gear will result from the subjectivity programmed history associated with our amigdala... The reason why sound please us is because sound convey meanings our brain/body recognize and create .
Tio explain how sound convey meanings we must study first psychoacoustics not study first amygdala reactive history ...
then you are right here :
Sound is very much part of the environment, and by being perceived in the local environment, becomes a factor in the effect had on the Amygdala, hence the individual exposed to the sound will have a reaction to it.
This reaction you spoke about is most of the times a TRAINED reaction because all sounds convey qualitative meanings.. (qualia)
But this does not prove that our sound reaction is motivated first and last by our amygdala alone, it is motivated by our ears/brain/body information retrieval skills acquired in our evolutive social history with speech and music and natural sounds interaction .
then what you say here is not even wrong but beside the main problem of sound meanings and recognition and appreciation :
Sounds effect on the Amygdala, is the dictator of whether the individual will receive stimulation to remain or remove themselves from the experience they are exposed to.
I have stated in other threads and will once more state it in this thread, that there is too much focus on one element of why audio has an attraction.
As sound is the important end product, as a result of the math produced to manage electronic signal transfer.
Analysis of the math, which is a substantial proportion of the reviews being produced on asr and now the methodologies used by the controllers of the asr site being analytically discussed in this thread.
There is a more valuable approach which could be referred to as Holistic, but there is certainly the Chemistry of the Brain to be considered.
As difficult as it may be take on board, there are other factors at play that encourages an individual to bond/wedded to a particular sound, oor find a place where they feel most satisfied.
The Human Brain has the Amygdala at the frontal section of the Limbic System. The Amygdala is the receiver of what is present in the environment, through the Bodies Sensory Receptors creating the Bodies response to the environment.
Each individual is totally unique in their reaction to environment and the Amygdala is the first section of the Brain to process the Sensory Information, with immediate creation of a chemical signal within the Brain. It is this chemistry that is the fundamental influence on producing an individual to be unique in their reaction. It is a survival trigger and not able to be controlled prior to the chemistry being triggered.
It is claimed the info passing through the Brain forming chemistry travels at 260mph and the chemical changes in the Brain occur approx' 10K- 12k per second. Quarter of the Bodies Oxygen intake fuels this vital activity for Life and Survival.
Sound is very much part of the environment, and by being perceived in the local environment, becomes a factor in the effect had on the Amygdala, hence the individual exposed to the sound will have a reaction to it.
Sounds effect on the Amygdala, is the dictator of whether the individual will receive stimulation to remain or remove themselves from the experience they are exposed to.
No one has a influence over the initial stimulus created from the Amygdala function, even though one can rationalise, if not feeling fearful as a result of the stimulus, but discomfort is also a likely feeling created.
In many many cases an individual exposed to a screech on a Chalkboard will Cup a Hand over a ear, this is not a choice made but a reaction to a stimulus. Each Individual will not have a reaction that measures to the same time taken to react, there will be variation.
The sound from the Chalkboard and Sound produced as a result of an Audio System are no different, both are encountered in the local environment. The repelling of the sound, is not a choice but a reaction to stimulus created following the exposure of the sound to the Amygdala.
The same can be said for the acceptance and willingness to expose oneself to enduring the Sound being encountered, it s not by choice.
Beat me Up, all you like about this not so usual description, but it is with a large proportion of being accurate.
How many have bought devices to produce sound, inclusive of myself, resulting from an influence on their eyes and intellect only. To be met with repelling the devoice with the influence of being exposed to the sound produced becoming part of the experience. I have a few of these behind myself.
Was that a choice made or a reaction to the environment controlled by the Amygdala?
I have owned a pair of Tekton Double Impact speakers for 2 years now. (Rock and Roll only) I researched and decided I would try them. There were many view points that I had read that were not favorable about Tekton, but, based upon my interactions with Eric himself on several occasions, I decided to give them a shot. Note, customer service is everything to me. He was always friendly and helpful, and never appeared to be short with me, no matter how many stupid questions I had! Note: W/O going into my entire system, which happens to be quite nice IMO, AMP is Pass x250.8 / usually listened to in class A. He always kept in contact until they were received, and verified accepted and OK. I appreciated the hand holding, my first relatively expensive speakers. To jump ahead, They are scheduled to arrive Tuesday, 4/23/24 via TForce freight, a brand new ( Expensive ) for me, a pair of Tekton Encores (special Edition) regarded as Faital Pro 12" ( 3rd pair made and shipped Ser# 5&6) the earlier pair made was destroyed while shipping to Fed Ex depot near me. Eric and his staff made every effort to keep me posted with the news. Less than a month later a special NEW pair were made and shipped, Again customer service was THERE!! I cant wait to receive and hear them. I will post after some burn in. All these comments are based on actual conversations and events. Until something changes, all I can say is that I am quite impressed as to how I have been treated. Robert Shaw TN
There is actually a revolution in acoustics, where it is demonstrated that there is physical invariant perceived by ears/brain/body and selected by pitch and tone filtering, informing us of the vibrating sound source qualities... Sound qualities are transmitted by waves but are not waves themselves.Sound qualities are directly perceived meanings through waves but not reducible to waves.There is always a physical invariant behind the perception of sound,a vibrating sound source empty or full, wood or metal, with or without this or that qualities etc
These facts confirmed the ecological hearing perception theory i used when debating Amir about sound perceptions superstitious use of tools . The Fourier maps are not identical with the hearing territory ...They are maps not the territory...
Amir did not understood my points at all at this time ... No scientific studies can debunk ideological propagandist...he will not understood them today it will debunk his business.. 😁 Searching for truth is not the same that building a cult or an audiophile site around ourself...So useful it could be... 😊
😊
The Revel dealer’s forum had fallen off my radar (when I got the useless gist of it), until a couple of guys on my listserv mentioned they had been banned for politely disagreeing on some measurement crap, like what is audible or not...In other words, his clan is suppressing anything that deviates from the caricature he paints, in the name of ’science’. But, here he is.
There are specific religions, where the land is no longer secular by law, if members of that specific religion become a majority. The lands where other religions are a majority seem to remain secular by law. You go to that intolerant land and you will have no rights, if you belong to any minority religion. But, when these intolerant fanatics come over to other secular lands (in search of fortunes or whatever), they are real Fin happy with the tolerance, secular laws and the ability to have all their rights (be themselves, speak their minds).
Draw parallels as you wish between the fanatic forum and the rest of em ...
The Revel dealer’s forum had fallen off my radar (when I got the useless gist of it), until a couple of guys on my listserv mentioned they had been banned for politely disagreeing on some measurement crap, like what is audible or not...In other words, his clan is suppressing anything that deviates from the caricature he paints, in the name of ’science’. But, here he is.
There are specific religions, where the land is no longer secular by law, if members of that specific religion become a majority. The lands where other religions are a majority seem to remain secular by law. You go to that intolerant land and you will have no rights, if you belong to any minority religion. But, when these intolerant fanatics come over to other secular lands (in search of fortunes or whatever), they are real Fin happy with the tolerance, secular laws and the ability to have all their rights (be themselves, speak their minds).
Draw parallels as you wish between the fanatic forum and the rest of em ...
Measurements are extremely important, without the equations made prior to the measuring process, there would not be much on offer as a Audio Equipment.
The user of Audio Equipment are in general uninterested in the equations and the measurements that follow.
Their Trust is in the designs on offer to satisfy their needs as a Listener to a produced sound.
In relation to a Speaker, is not the owner of the Speaker at any price point keen to know the Watts (Power Handling), dB (Efficiency), Ohms (Impedance), Hz (Frequency Response).
These are the measurements available for most speakers on offer, are there many Speaker owners who extend beyond wanting to witness a Speaker of Interest be analysed for its measurements, or is the next stage the want to experience the Speaker in the Flesh for it s aesthetic and sound produced.
For most the Speaker once recognised for meeting a certain criteria, to match a Amplifier, the next stage is the impression the Speaker is able to have on them.
Analytical measurements are not really going to supply information to the general speaker owner and listener of produced sound, that shows where the Speaker is possibly being stretched as a tool. Well Seasoned listeners with a broad experience may have more confidence in matching the analysis to the performance of the speaker.
Across the last few years, I have been able to listen to a range of ESL and Cabinet and OB Speakers from Vintage Design to modern designs in new to myself systems and systems very familiar to myself.
My ear still is very endeared to a sound produced from a Vintage Design, but the impression left by a few modern designs, especially Cabinet Designs has forced myself to have a complete rethink on where the Speaker is to go in my system in the future, until recently I thought the OB was to be the successor to the Vintage design Speakers in use, Cabinet Type Speakers are Speakers of Interest as well now.
These changes in direction are solely supported by the impression formed as a result of the listening experience, not a measurement of a Cabinet Type Speaker has been known to me prior to having the experience.
I may need to clarify something. When I say that the Klippel results are quasi-anechoic I’m not arguing that "quasi-anechoic" is bad, but that by definition it means measurements with anything other than an anechoic space.
I made the mistake ot descrbing a specific quasi-anechoic measurement technique, and it may seem I’m saying that quasi anechoic is 1 specific process. It isn’t. It’s an adjective. It classifies measurements broadly into 2 categories: anechoic or not based on the measurement methods. Regardless of the post processing methods, Klippel or otherwise, unless the measurements were donoe in an anechoic space they must then be "quasi-anechoic." if they attempt to replicate an anechoic measurement.
The Klippel system may in fact be the best we can do today. It may be the best ever. There may never be anything better. It’s still going to be quasi-anechoic in my mind. Always and forever.
I never said ground plane measurements were perfect, but that they could be used for an anechoic measurement below 80 Hz, so why bother to argue that they have issues as well? I don’t care. They are still anechoic while Klippel is not. If this winds you up in a knot, I’m sorry. Have a cookie. If you think "anechoic" is better than "quasi-anechoic" that’s on you, not me. You clearly have a branding problem you want to argue. If your entire web presence now hangs on the perceived value of the brand Klippel, that’s not my concern either. Klippel doesn't care what I think of it and vice-versa.
So if you want to argue that there are pros and cons of any kind of measurement, sure, go ahead, but please don’t expect me to engage in arguments I didn’t make.
Audio products are sold with puffery because...sales. Or they are sold with measurements because...sales. Music is emotional. Gear is beautiful and represents many different things to different people. If the product isn't moved, the industry dies.
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