I have yet to see anyone here posit that measurements aren't used in constructing gear. In fact, they go to great lengths saying they are. What they take issue is with measurements taken after the product is complete as the sole arbiter that it sounds good or bad.
Measurements can show where something is amiss but they also confound when they measure odd or off at certain things but still sound wonderful, just as things that measure great can sound sterile, shrill, flat and two dimensional. Go figure.
All the best,
Nonoise
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And don't forget that he's right up there with there them doctors (appeals to authority) so 'natch, he knows more than you do.
By the way, don't ever touch my hat.
All the best,
Nonoise
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This is like a fight in an old folks home.
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Amir is the Jordan Peterson of Peter Aczels.
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If that graph was from Harmon Inc/Sean Olive, I still have to call BS on it as there are "trained listeners" in the category of audio reviewers as that's what they're trained to do when reviewing. I can't imagine at least one audio reviewer not passing the test.
Now if the category were renamed "trained blind listeners with similar preferences for what sounds nice to them" (hence the Harmon curve), then have at it.
All the best,
Nonoise
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The word is not the thing.
The symbol is not the thing symbolized.
The map is not the territory.
The flag is not the nation.
The measurement is not the sound.
Gee, what do they all have in common?
(hint) They are all approximations of sorts, a shorthand for reference, analogous at best and most definitely not the final or best say. To say they are is hubris from someone who wants to sell you a bridge.
All the best,
Nonoise
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I love the "trained listener" graph.
Me too. He puts it out like it's definitive and official when it looks like something he drew up himself. His followers will refer to it as such, like those proto-humans in 2001, A Space Odyssey, dancing around the monolith.
All the best,
Nonoise
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It's on the previous page about a quarter roll up from the bottom.
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Now you resort to name calling and insults because you've run out of intelligent ways to defeat Amir and ASR.
"defeat Amir and ASR"? You make it sound like Amir is some kind of crusader going to war against the infidels. Take time for some good introspection and weigh the pluses and minuses of what constitutes being in a cult.
By the way, that sentence of yours constitutes a big plus in the being in a cult ledger.
All the best,
Nonoise
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I knew I saw this somewhere and believe it applies:
Why is reductive reasoning bad?
In doing so, ideological reductionism manifests a cascade of errors in method and logic: reification, arbitrary agglomeration, improper quantification, confusion of statistical artefact with biological reality, spurious localization and misplaced causality.
What is the weakness of reductionist theory?
The reductionist approach is also more scientific than other approaches as cause and effect relationships can more easily be tested through the scientific method. A disadvantage of the reductionist approach is that these experiments can be too simplistic. They are narrow and can ignore other influences.
In other words, too much kool-aid. We are not at the apex of measuring. Not by a long shot.
@kevn Very well said. Nice insight.
All the best,
Nonoise
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If they are ignored they can cackle on and will stop eventually, (I hope).
All the best,
Nonoise
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@mahgister Hey magister! I don't hate Amir, I just don't like his style and motives. You're not remotely qualified to assess what I say and mean, and for that matter, never have been.
You, if anyone, are not polite. You explode with anger all the time and when confronted with your behavior, you apologize. You've done that many, many times.
If anyone should imitate Amir, it is you, but you don't have that ability, as you've shown time over time all these years. The patience he's shown you is more than anyone I know would exhibit.
As for infestation of threads, that seems to be your forte. You've done it for years. Practically everything you've said in this thread, you've brought up before to the point of boring the heck out of members. You go off on your tangents demanding that others must respond and when one or two do respond, you claim vindication and insult other members when they complain of your tactic of highjacking a thread.
You post multiple times in a row but no one answers and it spoils the thread and intention of those who want to participate. Like others have already said, they (we) just pass over what you write hoping you lose interest (at least I do).
If you're of the mind, why don't you go over to ASR and start posting there and let us know how that goes.
By the way, if you really think members here are "gangstalking" you, reflect for a moment as to why and you'll discover it is because of you and your manner.
All the best,
Nonoise
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All the best,
Nonoise
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If I could sum that all up.....
All the best,
Nonoise
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So sad that this has become an integral part of this thread,
All the best,
Nonoise
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@markwd
I left out preferences in listening pleasure as well as the rooms gear is listened to, it being so obvious that I felt it need not be mentioned.
This reminds me of a review Ron did over on New Record Day about (I think it was) a Dali speaker. His measurements showed a rather large frequency spike around 12 or 15 KHz that didn't manifest itself as shrill, etched or zingy. He spoke with Dali about it and it was designed in. He found that it had lots of air, ambience and detail without the negatives. The speaker had a lively and not fatiguing quality that made listening a pleasure.
I find it odd that many who are into measurements cite the Harmon/Toole studies about preferences that were pleasing to the general and uninitiated public, resulting in that V curve which is not all that accurate and faithful to the original that's held up as something to aim for. So which is it? Accuracy or pleasure?
The answer is it has to be both. Strict accuracy leaves out the variables we haven't nailed down as of yet, small and elusive they may be and to dismiss it as mysticisms and deepenings smacks too much of hubris for my liking.
YMMV. Mine does.
All the best,
Nonoise
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@markwd
Pardon my snark as I mean this in best way.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Less trained listeners are much less picky though which goes against the claims of audiophiles that they are have extraordinary hearing ability.
Less trained listeners are much less picky (having lower standards) which goes to affirm the claims of audiophiles that they have extraordinary hearing ability.
There, I fixed it. The data points the way but the inference needed some work. I can skew conclusions as good as the next guy.
All the best,
Nonoise
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@markwd Thanks for clearing that up as it never made sense to me the way I perceived it.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Looks like the softening up is working, permitting the more trollish and boorish to hash over the extremes and paint everything they don't like with a broad brush.
That analogy of oh those some many miles of cabling before it gets to your place has been shot down time and again. All those substations, annexes, transformers and cabling alter the power in ways that would not resemble what it measures as when it finally reaches your home.
It's not some invisible, constant never changing force being shuttled to your door. What matters is how it's intended to be when it at last gets to your outlet and measures are taken to ensure it doesn't vary much, especially as much as it did during it's journey carried over aluminum lines. Would you have your PC made out of aluminum?
So yes, it is those last three feet that matter since most people don't go around trying to directly connect stuff to the Romex. Granted, they charge more than it's worth but who doesn't nowadays?
I have a few PCs from TWL and some from Zu Audio and a few others and there's clearly a difference in sound staging, dynamics, and frequency extension. Until the fetish of measuring everything to death and making a cottage industry out of it, we've always relied on our ears and yes, some fell prey to marketing and peer pressure but stop with this throwing the baby out with the bathwater malarkey.
One can always get better performance for not so dear a price as the one you brought up and to keep citing the extremes doesn't bode well for those arguments.
Do your thing and leave others to do the same. Before this measurement fetish took hold, members were politely cautioned about price/performance matters and not to fall for the hype. It's always been done that way, but now, it's one big crusade that requires total subjugation, enabling all that dopamine and serotonin to flow again for that big, fat rush.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Do note that manufacturers’ specs can be false and also that a specific unit may be broken. Testing by a third party like ASR can help to ascertain the reasons for the differences, not always perfectly, but they would add additional support to these apparently tendentious ideas about these products.
Sorry, but that's a big conditional "can" along with "a specific" and to imply that Amir is gonna come to the rescue smacks of a little bit of hero worship. Earlier on, one member spoke of the different filter settings on a Technics unit that all measured the same but sounded different.
There is no evidence for the presence of other types of unmeasurable phenomena.
I found a similar review of my Technics SL-G700 Network/SACD Player where the reviewer spoke to Technics about the 4 (or so) digital filter settings and they told him that although they all measured the same, they sounded distinctly different and it was up to the listener to pick the one they preferred. Others have measured it and found out it to be the case as well. It should be easy enough to procure a unit, test it, and lay that dog to rest.
All I could hear was a slight difference and went with the setting that didn't alter the incoming signal at all based on what reviewers were told by Technics, and yes, I could be fooled into not picking out the one I'm presently using that measures the same as the others as they're slight. That would more in the realm of a parlor trick.
There's more than meets the eye, and scope.
All the best,
Nonoise
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When someone conflates medical expectation bias with auditory expectation bias, you know they're really reaching. Even half in the bag as I am right now, I know that anyone succumbing to the "placebo effect" via a controlled medical study will/can claim an improvement in their condition but it's just a matter of time before they realize it's bumpkis. Their deteriorating health will prove that out.
If you're going to proffer that BS, then one must accept and allow the same curtesy to those who listen for changes over a long period of time or it will just amount to another parlor trick. Those subjects in the Harmon tests were found to need half an hour to adjust between tests as their first exposure to a new room thoroughly threw them for a loop. Subsequent tests kept that as the time frame. After repeated exposure, they got to where they could find some consensus as to what sounded pleasing.
The proof is in the long term listening. We always readjust when things settle down and that is always discounted as it throws out the "findings." Nothing like rigging a test based on rules set by those whose intent is to guarantee their results.
All the best,
Nonoise
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More like added Class D amps to his lineup after perfecting it to his liking. 
All the best,
Nonoise
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Not bad for being half in the bag, again. Wine is the universal solvent to all manner of ailments.
All the best,
Nonoise
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@markwd Is it me or are you damning with faint praise a bit too much?
It's getting a bit off putting.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Nah, it’s just sophistry being used to baffle. Look at all the angles and attempts deployed, the feints, the parries, the side steps. Getting kinda boring.
@kevn Thanks for the cleanup on aisle 7. Your vigilance is commendable and most appreciated.
All the best,
Nonoise
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@kevn It's always a journey to savor learning new information. I really haven't a clue why you or the crew here are mildly to see me as ragingly hostile unpleasant. As I have mentioned previously, I have no investment in these topics. They are interesting, is all, and I have the luxury to treat troll them as such with no commercial, ego, or other interests. I hold them up like a jar of fireflies and they are tulips of fire against the background nothingness. (gag)
I am, however, developing a series of micro-theses on how online communities shift over time, stirring animosity with Agon members, like to whet my talents to in enlarging the Overton window, and how certain media theorists apply framing theory or pumps/valve metaphors to the dynamics that shift and change online sensibilities. Again, it aids in deluding others and it's helpful to see it up close and rough-and-tumble rather than just in theory.
(takes an additional note)
Best, as always, and in your friendship.
Did I mention that this was getting boring?
All the best,
Nonoise
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Ken Ishiwata is rolling over in his grave.
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Meanwhile, back at ASR.....
All the best,
Nonoise
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But, the illusion of reality that we sometimes get with our systems is what the brain does when combining the sounds with a lifetime of experiences. A distinction without a difference.
I'm outta here.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Dude, you're way off into the weeds on this one. It's a pity you chose objectifying of women as your hill to die on. But die you did.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Are you woefully obtuse or willfully obtuse? I posted the video to lay bare Amir's claims to high fidelity and achieving it without sighted determination as a bunch of hogwash. What purpose of posting his video did he have other than to take a different tact, appealing to baser impulses of his audience? It sure stirred you up, showing it worked.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Posting a video of an attractive women in a short skirt is not "music enjoyment" but rather, a cheap shot for the boys at ASR that borders on soft porn. She’s barely playing enough to qualify as talented, shaking her seated booty to the music, to some contemporary Russian music that borders on pop.
There’s a slew of videos dedicated to her over on YouTube based, from what seems, to be just on her looks. Here’s a great one,
When I listen to music, I do it without the visuals, which I thought ASR was all about.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Criticizes video posted because it borders on soft porn.... ups the ante by posting another video of the same women behaving the same way. Sure pwned on that one.
Clearly your IQ seems to drop when you post on this thread to save face for your master, losing yours in the process. The second video simply validates what I stated by showing the obvious intent of her videos and her followers: they have no interest in her "talents" and follow her simply because she's attractive.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Got it.
Woefully obtuse.
Carry on.
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Well, at least he's now using subscriber numbers as opposed to visitor numbers. It's like someone turned off the bullhorn.
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How 'bout this from a guy who uses measurements as an aid and not a template? He even uses a Doge tube amp for crying out loud and just listen to the sound he gets. The measurements bear out what his instincts tell him and not the other way 'round.
The first part deals with his thoughts about his system followed by various music samples. You can skim the music if you like and start at 21:09 for his measurements and a look into his system.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Did the bad man go away? Did he think his followers would look into that open baffle speaker?
All the best,
Nonoise
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Does not equal
All the best,
Nonoise
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You on the other hand, make a super lousy fidelity meter. Your mood changes. You take into account your life experiences to evaluate something. You don't know your biases. You let your eyes override your ears, etc.
Sounds like you chant this every morning upon waking over and over as you make your coffee.
All the best,
Nonoise
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