Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Showing 9 responses by prefab

I think it is pretty predictable that the invective that springs forth from the ASR community/cult, has spread as negativity always does. And it all comes from Amir. He is the leader and he justifies it. Just look at his image on the ASR site. A Geisha with a sneer. His intent is pretty clear with that alone. And his followers are not reasonable. They are aggressive to the extreme. That's the product of his leadership. 

This one sided reliance on measurement and the tendency to use those judgements to harm businesses by crying foul or fraud. I have to wonder how many honest audio entrepreneurs his group has damaged. It has to be extremely difficult to eke out success in this hobby. Not every product will shine brightest, but there has always been many paths to audio bliss. In this way, ASR has hurt all audiophiles. Because in the end, many of those paths will be lost forever. 

Audio products are sold with puffery because...sales. Or they are sold with measurements because...sales. Music is emotional.  Gear is beautiful and represents many different things to different people. If the product isn't moved, the industry dies. 

 

@ricevs Naive

@botrytis  Measurements are not necessarily valid either. I had a pair of Kef LS50 meta for about a year. This is an ASR favorite.  I found it uninvolving. Neutral but boring. Poor Soundstage. Poor imaging. Etc. I got a set of Jean Marie Reynaud Bliss Silvers. Panned by ASR. Initially I detected some mild irregularities in the upper mids. I got used to them. But the Soundstage is broader, more dimensional, and imaging is far more precise. And I found the rhythmic aspects far more appealing. They grab me every time. ASRs Measurements paradigm was not helpful or accurate.  I have had the JM Reynauds for about six months now. I added an Audio Resear VT60 to the system. Even better. 

@botrytis Soooo, if audition two speakers. One set you love the performance of, by your listening. Then later, you go to ASR and find the "klipple" readings rate the one you did not like higher,...Which one you gonna buy?

Lol

 

And no one is suggesting that you not believe in science. 

I think it is clear that Amir and the culture that he has built has created a lot of anger in the audiophile community. Largely because he and his cult of followers believe that their paradigm of judgement is superior and because they are extremely rude and dismissive of disagreement. And also because ASR has been successful in influencing a lot of less informed audiophiles. Mostly because it is easy to follow (Panther statues) and because he peddles a false sense of superiority as expressed in a language of derision. 

To people who love the hobby, this kind of pisses on the fun. And it is all a big lie. Measurements are nothing new. Debate on the role of measurements is not new either. ASR offers something different. Because if ASR we are now Audiophiles or Golden Eared Audio Fools. We are either "good" objectivists, or bad "subjectivists". This language is polarizing and invites disrespect. 

On top of that, I have seen them judge excellent gear that has stood the test of time and market as garbage. Without listening. Without considering that perhaps people are less interested in the measurement than their own perceptions. And this hurts the industry. Because it has trained a legion of audiophiles to hate what they might find to love. The Audio business is a tough one. The survivors are few. There have always been many pathways to audio satisfaction. Many of them, like for example, those who prefer the "British" sound, or those who love vintage 70's style, or those who love SET amplifiers. These are the muses that give the pursuit life and happiness. Not just the ones that measure to ASR standards. I personally have enjoyed all these things. And they have given me joy and pause to consider, while I celebrate and experience the music I love.

Amir aims to destroy that possibility. He wants to "set us free" from things that don't measure well. Even if we enjoy those things. 

I think it is also important to note that in a marketplace of competing audio products, there are many ideals being pursued by many brave, talented and hardworking entrepreneurs. Audio products are designed to sound great, with measurement as a consideration, without it being the end goal. Pass Labs is a famous example of a company who is open about this. This is actually the whole reason for the hobby. We like things that sound the way we like them to sound. We like options. We like to explore different sound approached. We like to hear our favorite music being framed by all these different things because each one lends insight into the music in it's own way. 

And some of us love shiny things. The world loves shiny things. Fashion and beauty are noble pursuits. My EAR Yoshino gear sounds fantastic to me. And it has a 1/4 inch think aluminum faceplate polished like a mirror. It looks awesome and I am proud to own it. There is nothing foul or unusual about this. It doesn't make me a fool. It makes me happy. If you want to try to make me feel foolish, that makes you an a**hole. It has nothing to do with me. 

 

 

Also, what's with all the piling on Tekton. The guy has built a business in a very difficult market, from nothing. Businesses like his hang by a thread. He has a right to feel insecure. And responsible reviewers should be sensitive to that. I did not see the blog. But the Internet has some people thinking that they can empower themselves with negativity at the expense of the people who are taking real chances. They deserve to feel the heat of litigation. Tekton makes a budget product with specific goals that cannot be judged by a Klipel. I want them and every company like them to thrive. Because is gives us all more options in whatever direction we want to grow. 

@botrytis I have no problem with Tekton. I wish them great success. I empathize with his complaint that a few people are making a name for themselves with petty and poorly informed reviews at the expense of a cottage industry that hangs by a thread. It's too easy to take down a company. If they are going to play that game, then they should be willing to accept the heat of the inevitable push back. 

@prof 

Amir did not do anything revolutionary by measuring cables to debunk the cable myth. That has been done since the 90s. There are some things that can be done with cables with regard to capacitance and materials like silver vs copper, etc. That Amir took the time to measure is no great feat. 

 

But if people want to decorate their stereos with beautiful cables. Then why not, if it makes them happy. I have a few fancy cables. I love the way they look. I can afford them. 

 

I do know this. Brick and Mortar stores have become few and far between. And they are an important resource. They move the goods and keep the industry alive. They educate. And they are a source for having a chance to listen before you buy. If selling fancy cables to their well heeled clients helps keep the doors open, then bring it on.