I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
2. Use a spectrum analyzer to measure the amplitude at several frequency since the output is not a pure sine wave.
What on earth are talking about? Spectrum analyzer shows the spectrum, not time domain amplitude. Regardless, that was done in the P12 review:
As show, the P12 actually increases AC noise, not decrease it. It does so because it is not a true regenerator.
3. Now connect the output to different load such as 2ohm, 4ohm, .... or more.
Looks like you have forgotten about ohm's law. P12 generates 120 volt RMS AC. At 2 ohm, you would be asking it to spit out whopping 60 amps! The could cause it to be damaged at worst, or shut down at best. That is on top of needing a high voltage dummy load that could dissipate over 7 kilowatts of power! You seem to be confusing how you measure the output impedance of audio amplifier rather than a high voltage AC generator.
5. With those information, you can use a simple equation to calculate for the output impedance.
Which is what I do when measuring output impedance of headphone amplifiers. But per above, you are dealing with a completely different beast here with a high voltage AC source.
None of this is necessary anyway as output impedance of AC source only has a loose relationship to what comes out of your audio device as the latter has its own power supply and capacitor bank to provide power for transients. Measuring an amplifier power is a much better and more clear verdict of whether the P12 is able to do its job transparently or cause performance to be lost. The latter was clearly shown in my measurements.
I did use an impedance meter to measure anyway so not sure why you are continuing on. Here is my AC source impedance:
And here it is going through P12:
As noted, P12's output impedance is nearly 10 times worse despite company claims of it being better!
No the square wave will test for transient condition. It is like a step response to test how the amp can deliver the current.
Square wave testing can generate highly misleading information as the signal itself may never be representable with music signals. To wit, digital audio at 44.1 kHz won't have any components above 22.05 kHz. Feed it a 10 kHz square wave and what comes out is a pure sine wave! I have a video on that:
Without emotions, there is really no point in music.
That says it all for me. Not all, but most of these debates about measurements are just academic. I believe measurements are important for engineers when they design and test their gear, but I'm absolutely convinced Amir wouldn't know what he was listening to. I have my tube setups designed on the warm side. If Amir heard my system blind folded, he'd fail miserably.
Complete rubbish quarrel which do not touch and stay above the ground : hearing theory...
What do we hear when we hear a sound quality and why do we recognize it as such ?
Bad answers:
----My branded name gear is picked by my taste and experience with gear.-
---- I read Amir reviews and i had bought ONLY what he measured as good .-
---- I only use ABX double blind test to select my gear 😋. ( This third answer is a joke, nobody go so lost as doing this as the serious thing to do not even Amir whose "acuity" anyway was measured as superiorly trained spotting digital artefacts)
It is useless and preposterous to discuss the technical validity of some measures if this grounding point is not explained : how do we recognize sound quality ?
Sorry nor Helmholtz nor Fourier alone can explain it. A fortiori not Amir either ...
Like a petulant child.....the endless need to have the last word....
Amir, you’re a clown, and ASR is a clown-show. If we ever met, I'd tell you that straight to your face.
Kind of sad, really. Take something worthwhile and burn it completely down.
Nothing more than a petulant, immature child trying desperately to have the last word in an argument.
I doubt you’ve won anyone over to your point of view. Just me, though.....I’m sure you’ll win someone over with your incessant arguing and snarky replies. Complete with pretty graphs. IRL, I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t be friends, you’re just not very likeable. Might want to work on your people skills, dude. In the meantime...
Without emotions, there is really no point in music.
If you need a non-performant tube amp to feel that emotion, you have no love for music, nor the talent that created it....
Proves my point exactly. Your mind is so consumed by what you see in measurements and graphs, you’ve actually convinced yourself you are hearing all sorts of terrible distortion. There’s even a well known case that you actually had a Mark Levinson 360S DAC for 21 years until January of 2020 and only after you measured it and found out that it was worse than the MEIZU dongle did you decide to say goodbye to it. You even admitted it yourself in own review which I’ve also linked below. You really don’t know what you’re listening to and those charts are messing with your mind. You ignore what you can’t even answer yourself about what I said using a single speaker with my jazz. Emotion is blasphemy for a mind like yours.
This point illustrate well the problem with most engineers sleepwalking in the A.I. idolization right now...
It is techno-cultism, where the tool replace us as truth.
It is why Amir opinion about audio is the perfect reflection of the techno-cultist religion ...
There’s even a well known case that you actually had a Mark Levinson 360S DAC for 21 years until January of 2020 and only after you measured it, and found out that it was worse than the MEIZU dongle did you decide to say goodbye to it. You even admitted it yourself in own review which I’ve also linked below. You really don’t know what you’re listening to and those charts are messing with your mind. You ignore what you can’t even answer yourself about what I said using a single speaker with my jazz. Emotion is blasphemy for a mind like yours.
If you need a non-performant tube amp to feel that emotion, you have no love for music, nor the talent that created it....
That would be a silly thing to say if it weren't so nasty and judgmental. I don't think you know a thing about @mahgister. To be fair to you, he'd be difficult to represent using only charts and graphs, which seems to be your preferred language.
"a better test would be using a square wave input.. "
You have no idea what you're talking about since a square wave jumps and repeats itself at a given frequency that is a 'discontinuity' you can't possibly use a s.w. input as an audio signal.
"you are a hypocrite - you throw people off your own site for expressing contrary opinions yet come here yet you come here and bleat your opinions like a goat"
You probably got kicked out for being unintelligent on ASR - a site full of engineers and physicists.
Now you resort to name calling and insults because you've run out of intelligent ways to defeat Amir and ASR.
"defeat Amir and ASR"? You make it sound like Amir is some kind of crusader going to war against the infidels. Take time for some good introspection and weigh the pluses and minuses of what constitutes being in a cult.
By the way, that sentence of yours constitutes a big plus in the being in a cult ledger.
you've run out of intelligent ways to defeat Amir and ASR.
It only takes one way. I have seen plenty of people take on Amir intelligently. Amir will simply post another graph.
I've decided that Amir has taken the position that no PR is bad PR. So his lack of respect, arrogance, condescension, these are all part of his brand. People that want to feel intellectually superior follow him.
Measurements and scientific approach can be useful and important in choosing gear or evaluating a system configuration. That doesn't make it everything. Nor does ASR really come near measuring everything relevant. There is no attention paid to system synergy or the relationship of components.
ASR and their followers are completely blind to their own biases. And then there's this stupid rating system built on top of the partial measuring scheme. Deaf panther.
"Now you resort to name calling and insults because you’ve run out of intelligent ways to defeat Amir and ASR. "
The minion reinforcements have arrived to support the cult leader. How pathetic that the minions regard this as a battle to defeat someone. Amir is just a rude, obnoxious, arrogant person who actually knows very little. It looks like the cult leader needs support to try and persuade us of our failings.
"You probably got kicked out for being unintelligent on ASR - a site full of engineers and physicists." I suggest you go back and play with your $2.00 dongle that measures superbly. Seriously I have never come across a less educated rabble than on ASR.
Amir is a gentleman when he discuss. Nevermind how wrong his idea about audio measurements meanings can be.
I am not fan of his zealots gangstalking anybody who beg to differ exactly like here i am not proud of SOME people easy to spot who like flies attack with insults and no sound argument...
"defeat" is an aggressive word my apologies I should have used "refute" instead. ASR is not an cult you all are invited to express your opinions and listening experiences that don’t need to agree with the measurements or opinions of other members but don’t go dramatic like saying "my $2000 shunyata power cable made a startlingly significant improvement" or "give it 200 hrs of burn-in it will get better better better" because we know that’s not true. Amir created ASR on the principles of engineering to evaluate audio equipment so that we could trust ASR wholeheartedly since there's no sponsor or advertisement influence and absolutely no paid-trolls... but based on objective measurements.
This just comes to show what a self proclaimed narcissist is like. If you skip to 5:35 of this video, he goes on to say he's the guy with golden ears. 🙄
It is a too strong word used here like an insult...
He think that because he learned how to spot digital artefact he trained his ears "acuity" potential...
He is right about that...
The problem is acuity to spot digital artefact means nothing about the way we must learn how to hear acoustics and musical concepts from a system/room...
But i had no doubt that his opinion reflect a general ideology about sound and hearing ...
This just comes to show what a self proclaimed narcissist is like. If you skip to 5:35 of this video, he goes on to say he’s the guy with golden ears. 🙄
It takes a special type of fanatical wacko to get booted out of every forum, get fired from every job, etc. I witnessed it years ago, i.e., how lousy this guy was when he got booted out of everywhere. Such a lousy creature will be forced to become an "entrepreneur" (whoop di doo), start his own lousy forum, etc. Most sociopaths in this world are manipulative enough to sport their cults and fair share of low IQ minions...The rest is history with this guy.
It will be a great day indeed when this thread gets shut down.
ASR has a contribution to make. I just hate the forum culture that Amir promotes. And they don’t recognize they’re trapped in their own belief system, just like the colored fuse and audiophile network switch folks.
There’s so much psychology built into any audio gear...what the ASR folks don’t get is that their expectation bias from "tests well" isn’t any different from expectation bias from "paid a lot" or "looks cool."
There is a reasonable middle ground here. For whatever reason, the Internet seems to polarize rather than inform.
i get what you want to say and you appear to me very rational...
ASR has a contribution to make. I just hate the forum culture that Amir promotes. And they don’t recognize they’re trapped in their own belief system, just like the colored fuse and audiophile network switch folks.
But there is no middle ground between "paid a lot" and suit my taste and "measured good" then proved to be the best ...
Subjectivist as objectivist dismiss acoustics as the main audio factor not price tag or few electrical measures and graphs , the two group even confuse acoustics with room acoustic.
This is why i criticized Amir about hearing theory and he had no idea of what i spoke about ...
ASR could have some purpose, but after what Amir has said on this thread I dont think any contribution can be made. In fact if his brand had any credence it is now gone. Belief systems dont trap people, lack of experience and due diligence traps people. In a hobby which entirely revolves around listening, I have no time for people that dont or wont listen.
“This is why i criticized Amir about hearing theory and he had no idea of what i spoke about ...
Ignorance rule...”
rankaudio/magister, in a thread with similar posted outcomes last year, I asked amir about the value of a particular test for listening ability, a very accessible test on the internet to gauge listening ability over different resolutions of tests files. In reply, Amir said it was not a good test for its purpose, and referred me instead to a site purposed for those wanting to learn how to listen, oblivious to the fact that the test I had referred him to was one on testing inherent listening ability, and nothing to do with learning. He brushed away his misstep upon my pointing it out, but nonetheless acknowledged my listening abilities to have identified all resolutions accurately, only to lead on to a more conclusive but inaccessible test he had performed, in dismissing my result as being ‘undocumented’. He then proceeded to deride me when I called him out for not having even performed the said test I referred him to, accusing me of having ‘tricked’ him into believing I wanted to ‘learn’ from him, when all I wanted was to prove him wrong.
mahgister, there are moments like this littered through all of Amir’s exchanges with others, especially the ones he has with you. He often fails to read the substance of the posts of others, conflates issues under discussion with either his credentials, or measurements of singularities as the end all, prevaricates when he has no answer, and never acknowledges his mistakes when made, which we all make as the imperfect beings we are. Everything about his behaviour in his posts point to cognitive dissonance, a vital cornerstone of narcissism.
The WebMD summarises well…
‘People who show signs of narcissism can often be very charming and charismatic. They often don’t show negative behavior right away, especially in relationships. People who show narcissism often like to surround themselves with people who feed into their ego. They build relationships to reinforce their ideas about themselves, even if these relationships are superficial.’
It goes on to add that narcissists have ‘a preoccupation with fantasies of success, power, or brilliance’ and are insisting of the fact ‘they have the best of everything’, which in amir’s case, are the instruments he measures with.
What the WebMD fails to state is that narcissists are of belief they are right about everything they stand for, which, for amir, is the half science of measurements.
Even you, mahgister, label him as ignorant, while deflecting all attention from your statement by accusing others of insulting and calling him names. The fact is, a reasonable diagnosis based on evidence of engagement, in your case ‘ignorance’, and in rankaudio’s case ‘narcissism’, does in no way constitute insult or childish name calling.
The simple fact is that Amir engages his important, and yet half science of measurements as a singularity, in ignorance of all other vital relationships, and does so with narcissistic tendencies of arrogance; and neither you nor rankaudio, are incorrect in your statements.
Thanks for your interesting opinion and personal experience..
He stay polite with me but never understood in good faith any of the scientific text i suggested the last time i dicussed with him...He could not anyway because it demolished his fragile ideology about his small set of measurements he put over hearing and even over hearing theory...
Probably i am a very bad judge of people character and perhaps i am wrong about my objection concerning the accusation of narcissism...
I cannot debate this in either way.... I will trust your judgment over mine in this...
😊
@rankaudio / @mahgister
“This is why i criticized Amir about hearing theory and he had no idea of what i spoke about ...
Ignorance rule...”
rankaudio/magister, in a thread with similar posted outcomes last year, I asked amir about the value of a particular test for listening ability, a very accessible test on the internet to gauge listening ability over different resolutions of tests files. In reply, Amir said it was not a good test for its purpose, and referred me instead to a site purposed for those wanting to learn how to listen, oblivious to the fact that the test I had referred him to was one on testing inherent listening ability, and nothing to do with learning. He brushed away his misstep upon my pointing it out, but nonetheless acknowledged my listening abilities to have identified all resolutions accurately, only to lead on to a more conclusive but inaccessible test he had performed, in dismissing my result as being ‘undocumented’. He then proceeded to deride me when I called him out for not having even performed the said test I referred him to, accusing me of having ‘tricked’ him into believing I wanted to ‘learn’ from him, when all I wanted was to prove him wrong.
mahgister, there are moments like this littered through all of Amir’s exchanges with others, especially the ones he has with you. He often fails to read the substance of the posts of others, conflates issues under discussion with either his credentials, or measurements of singularities as the end all, prevaricates when he has no answer, and never acknowledges his mistakes when made, which we all make as the imperfect beings we are. Everything about his behaviour in his posts point to cognitive dissonance, a vital cornerstone of narcissism.
The WebMD summarises well…
‘People who show signs of narcissism can often be very charming and charismatic. They often don’t show negative behavior right away, especially in relationships. People who show narcissism often like to surround themselves with people who feed into their ego. They build relationships to reinforce their ideas about themselves, even if these relationships are superficial.’
It goes on to add that narcissists have ‘a preoccupation with fantasies of success, power, or brilliance’ and are insisting of the fact ‘they have the best of everything’, which in amir’s case, are the instruments he measures with.
What the WebMD fails to state is that narcissists are of belief they are right about everything they stand for, which, for amir, is the half science of measurements.
Even you, mahgister, label him as ignorant, while deflecting all attention from your statement by accusing others of insulting and calling him names. The fact is, a reasonable diagnosis based on evidence of engagement, in your case ‘ignorance’, and in rankaudio’s case ‘narcissism’, does in no way constitute insult or childish name calling.
The simple fact is that Amir engages his important, and yet half science of measurements as a singularity, in ignorance of all other vital relationships, and does so with narcissistic tendencies of arrogance; and neither you nor rankaudio, are incorrect in your statements.
It helps explain a lot about what many of us have suspected/felt for as long as we have been in the hobby, in noticing both subtle and more obvious differences with each change of our systems. The way the article has been written is both simple to understand in form, and profound in critical content. ; )
It helps explain a lot about what many of us have suspected/felt for as long as we have been in the hobby, in noticing both subtle and more obvious differences with each change of our systems. The way the article has been written is both simple to understand in form, and profound in critical content. ; )
It is clear that acoustics rules audio experience which is not mere room acoustic...
If we dont understand psychoacoustics we can anyway tune our system/room for sure without reading these articles above...😊
But if we want to really understand why Amir posit an ideology about a few tools as THE audio truth we must read these articles which explain what we hear and how this affect us, in a way no tools used as a set of toys to promote audio S.Q. truth could because it is only gear marketing in a new form.
There would be nothing wrong with Amir measurements if he did not disparage hearing and acoustics and users preferences parameters as basis and key, instead of the gear specs, so much important electrical synergy could be and is for sure to start a system /room journey... Acoustic synergy matter no less...
Gear dont matter at last anyway it is only a starting point ( it is budget dependant) acoustics matter at last if we want to do the best and the optimum with what we can afford ...
For sure you cannot replace a lesser quality component with acoustics knowledge nor compensate for it. Design quality matter too. Then in this sense specs matter.
But once said the impact of acoustics on a system/room exceed any upgrade in S.Q. improvement %... By far...
it is not well known because marketers sell gear pieces as acoustic solution to S.Q. problem...It is not even wrong because as i said design quality matter...
But no marketer sell their gear piece asking the consumers to study acoustics to reach the optimum with their new piece of gear... They instead said that their piece of gear is "perfect" as it is for them... Unwrap and plug and be on top of the world...
Sorry it is false no system whatever his price can beat acoustics...
I love classicrock's explanation on how to not get banned on ASR forums. You can disagree but not really.
Cult seems to be an appropriate way to describe ASR followers. Amir offers simple explanations to complex problems, one central figure who has all the answers, shunning or banning if you question the guru, safe spot that doesnt encourage actual complex thought, aggressive defense of the master and an ability to find members who are searching for answers but suffer from problems of confidence.
I think a deprogramming is in order. This may be nothing more than forcing these people to sit down and listen with an open mind. However such listening might force an existential crises so get ready for some therapy.
What on earth are talking about? Spectrum analyzer shows the spectrum, not time domain amplitude.
We are measuring output impedance. The spectrum analyzer measures the voltage amplitude for each frequency. Why do you need to introduce "time domain" here? If it is just DC voltage then you just need a Fluke voltage meter. But the output here comprises of multiple frequency that’s why you need a spectrum analyzer. Also I assume the load is mostly "real" and not "complex". If it is "complex" then it can be complicate as you need the phase as well. That is why I said this is not an easy test to do and you’re may not be prepared to perform it.
Looks like you have forgotten about ohm’s law. P12 generates 120 volt RMS AC. At 2 ohm, you would be asking it to spit out whopping 60 amps! The could cause it to be damaged at worst, or shut down at best.
Then use a higher impedance load to reduce the current load. I was only using it as an example.
Maximum Continuous Load
1000VA
1200VA
This is what the spec for the P12. You can use it to calculate how much current is appropriate. If the output is 120V then the max current is 1000VA/120V = 8.3A.
That is on top of needing a high voltage dummy load that could dissipate over 7 kilowatts of power!
That is why I said it’s not simple test to measure and I don’t think you have a setup for it. You can reduce the wattage by using a square wave instead of a continuous output.
You seem to be confusing how you measure the output impedance of audio amplifier rather than a high voltage AC generator.
They all have to obey Ohm’s law. They all should have output impedance that can be measured. There is nothing special here except you’re dealing with very high voltage and current. That is why the test is not easy. You took the short cut.
None of this is necessary anyway as output impedance of AC source only has a loose relationship to what comes out of your audio device as the latter has its own power supply and capacitor bank to provide power for transients.
That is just your conjecture. I don’t have data to back it up.
Square wave testing can generate highly misleading information as the signal itself may never be representable with music signals.
I am not saying you should use square wave to test for everything, but in this special case of testing a AC power regenerative, the square wave can tell you if the P12 does what is is supposed to do - that is delivering the current from a very low impedance source.
To wit, digital audio at 44.1 kHz won’t have any components above 22.05 kHz. Feed it a 10 kHz square wave and what comes out is a pure sine wave!
Then use a lower frequency for example 1KHz. Use just need to mimic a step response to see how the amp can produce a demand current. If you don’t like square wave, just use step response.
Because these simple answers are correct or because they are fringe, easily defended and a gross oversimplification? Seems like it is about time for Amir to chime in, get everyone energized and upset and then disappear. He could be an evil genius.
Ideological techno cultism propaganda suggested as THE "science" nowadays is so pervasive , that it ask for courage to simply communicate interesting acoustics "tweaks" as mechanical room equalization with a grid of resonators , or the use of mechanical crossfeed of stereo speakers for the ears/brain as i did as experiments in my room with a success exceeding most possible upgrade of gear at no cost.
imagine suggesting simple but more controversial experiments as shungite/quartz on interconnect cable or gear piece for the fun of verifying something ...I was classed as "tin foil hat" by people who do not understand with their own ears basic acoustics ... 😊
The objectivist crowd call people as myself "audiophile" meaning Ignorant...
But i demonstrated with the last science article discoveries in acoustics about hearing theory that many of the so called objectivist crowd had no idea of what they spoke about, software engineer or not...😊
Spotting digital artefacts on digital formats has nothing to do with spotting system/room/ears qualitative parameters and acting on them as a whole. This is the difference between Amir and me. He need ear acuity, i need more acoustics concepts interaction concrete understanding . 😊
"Because we know its not true"......says classicrockfan. The "we" are the 15%? of audiophiles that think that the only thing that matters is measurements. The "they" are the 85%? of audiophiles that KNOW that things sound different.....because they have evidence....they heard it. The only thing that is true in audio is what we hear. You cannot say something is NOT TRUE when you do no listening tests. You simply have your head in the sand and want to be right. There are NO tests that prove what Amir and the 15% claim.....none whatsoever......because you cannot prove that things sound the same.......when, in fact, to those that listen.....they sound different.
Amir's game is simply made up.....fantasy......And as I said before, if you base your ideas of sound on theory and not listening....then you have no real knowledge or truth.......and something stated as truth, when there has never been any proof of that statement......is therefore a big fat LIE. All DACs and amps and preamps sound the same......big fat lie. All cables sound the same.....big fat lie. Amir is lying.....plain and simple......and in his soul.....he knows it. His ego thinks he is right. Those of us that listen do not need to do tests to prove we hear differences......because the truth is self evident. But those that claim to know how something sounds by measurements.....they need to PROVE IT.......because those of us that listen....KNOW it is BS. Should be A-MAGA.....Amir's Make Audio Great Again.....site. He will banish forever all those high priced snake oil products and save us from those greedy bastards.........yes, that is how they think. He is the Messiah......coming to our rescue. Please save me Amir.....Please. I cannot read one more review of $5000 ethernet cables. This is all so funny. But we need some drama. So, here we are. The ego knows no limits to drama.
What is true is what we experience......More and more I experience divine love and joy.....for that is what I put my mind and attention on......more and more of the time and deeper and deeper. This is the path of every soul on this planet......to evolve in truth and love. How much more love can we feel today?.......there is always more.....divine love is infinite.....there are many mansions there.......it never ends. Fighting Amir will end......when you stop fighting. Love never ends.....like the Sun.....it shines on and on and on and on......we are that Sun....we are that light.
Please get out in the Sun and feel the blessings of life in every cell of your body and soul (70 trillion cells in your body.....what a miracle we are!)
I have a few different violins and i’ve recorded the same pieces on them. If i ask this garage monster to point out which violin is which (between 2 of them specifically), i can guarantee 1000%, he couldn’t tell them apart (the trained listener/joker that he is who did some listening training on harman’s website for an hour, wow!!). I could pick out which one is which like night and day (what an anomaly that is to be "scientifically" discarded i must be!!)...It is the type of adaptation that happens when you spent 40 years with such an instrument. But, you couldn’t explain any of it to a low IQ garage monster.
Years ago, when i was visiting Technics HQ, they were demonstrating/showing me circuits with identical measurements that sound drastically different. Can ya explain that to this garage monster undergrad (Circuits 101 moron)? Ya can’t...
Cover his garage (listening room) with glass panels, remove the glass panels and cover with wood. You can be rest assured that the garage monster will measure the same in each case and start jumping up and down about how brilliant he is. But, for anyone with a half a noodle in his head, it will be obvious that the materials which makes up the reflective surfaces in your room drastically affect what you hear. The materials used in drivers themselves affects what you hear...He would measure diddly for you though.
Looks like golden eared Amir finally went into hiding. It's amazing how many audio listeners disagree with that guy and he still just persists with his anti-tube ideology with endless charts and measurements. 2000 products? How does this guy live with a product for any reasonable period of time to draw any logical conclusion? Guy's a complete sociopath.
You can measure the mid-fi stuff that appears to be his meat and potatoes all day long, but who really cares? With a few exceptions most on this site are not his audience. He is out of his element when he enters the higher-end.
Measurements are a starting point not the be all end all. If everything measured the same assuming we could measure everything (cannot) we would just have one speaker to choose from. Maybe a small/med/large. The china brand dacs they love so much might measure amazing on a 200 buck dac but are they sure don't sound as good subjectively. If I'm not mistaken the newer Topping D9x or something or other does not measure near as well as it's predecessor but it's pretty unanimous it sounds better Subjectively.
Measurements are a starting point not the be all end all.
That's right. You need to then apply understanding of those measurements, the engineering behind the design and science of hearing. With all of those factors combined, you can build a high confidence idea of how good a piece of audio gear is vs other choices.
If everything measured the same assuming we could measure everything (cannot) we would just have one speaker to choose from.
Once you bring in electro-mechanical components like speakers, then what you theorize is impossible. Heck, a pair of speakers from same company and model will likely measure differently. So no sense in talking about speakers measuring the same.
In controlled listening tests though, we can get speakers that tie statistically based on listener preference. In those situations, you can then apply other buying factors such as price, looks, support, etc.
Above is what we do at ASR. We narrow down the near-infinite choices down to good number of speakers which you can then select from, knowing with high confidence that you are not buying a dud.
The china brand dacs they love so much might measure amazing on a 200 buck dac but are they sure don't sound as good subjectively.
Putting aside the fact that those China DACs are part of whole category that includes such companies as Schiit and JDS Labs in US, your claim there is without evidence. Come back in a controlled test to show that what you say is true and then we stand up and take notice. Until then, I can put two identical DACs behind a screen and get every one of you to say they sound different. So forgive us if we don't put much value behind such claims.
Fact is that the best designs in DACs today come from these mass market companies. They have a closed loop design process where they measure and optimize for transparency. And since DACs can be highly optimized from manufacturing point of view, you get superb, transparent sound for as low as $80.
That's not to say there is no room for much more expensive DACs. Some of us, and that includes me, appreciate other things than sound such as looks, features (VU meters, EQ), etc. The Chinese companies are almost getting there on this front as well, while still charging reasonable prices. Here is a recent example, the Eversolo DMP-A6:
For $850, you not only get an excellent DAC but a full blown streamer running Android as well.
Would love to see more high-end DAC companies produce high performance DACs that also look luxurious.
“That's right. You need to then apply understanding of those measurements, the engineering behind the design and science of hearing. With all of those factors combined, you can build a high confidence idea of how good a piece of audio gear is vs other choices.”
says who? You? How far can you travel off the perfect measurement path Amir?
“That's not to say there is no room for much more expensive DACs. Some of us, and that includes me, appreciate other things than sound such as looks, features (VU meters, EQ), etc. “
So the only difference between a $200 topping and a 2k dac with meters is meters? .. well not many dacs have meters so there’s that. Why the F would they have a meter? lol
You cannot win an argument discussing gear measurements with Amir. 😊
All the ideology behind his papal decree on his own measurements value cannot be erased no more than any other reviewers using his own measurements as the truth can be dismissed by discursive arguments ...
What is a sound as perceived by human hearing? what is a sound quality musically and in acoustics ?
Does these complex set of interelated qualities can be predicted by few set of gear measures? No.
The subjectivist and the objectivist focus TOGETHER on the gear piece... One with his ears the other with his tools...
We must focus on the system/room/ears... Then no piece of gear described by a small set of measure can say anything about the S.Q.experience perceived by one ears/brain in a specific room with specific pieces of gear.
Proves my point exactly. Your mind is so consumed by what you see in measurements and graphs, you’ve actually convinced yourself you are hearing all sorts of terrible distortion.
No, I am just going by the assumption that you are hearing a different sound with tube amps than transistor. That coloration is therefore added to every piece of music, making it different than what the artist intended. Taking a position that this is required to enjoy music, shows completely lack of understanding of how music moves all of us.
There’s even a well known case that you actually had a Mark Levinson 360S DAC for 21 years until January of 2020 and only after you measured it and found out that it was worse than the MEIZU dongle did you decide to say goodbye to it.
Not at all. My reason for replacing the the ML DAC was due to the fact that it was limited to 96 kHz sampling. And no DSD support. I had purchased a ton of high-res music which I had to resample in Roon to listen to them. So with much sadness I replaced that workhorse which had served me so well for so long. Here is my review of Mark Levinson No 360S DAC stating some of this:
"Conclusions
No, you would not run out and buy the Mark Levinson No 360S today. Were there cheap choices then that were good? We will never know without a time machine to go back and measure as we do today. I can say that nothing is broken in it. It produces performance above 16 bits resolution without any glaring mistakes or issues as we commonly see in R2R DAC products today.
FYI now that I pulled it out of my system, I will be putting a Matrix Audio DAC in its place. Thank you my old friend for two decades of service. You were expensive to marry to but good mate to have had."
I still have that DAC by the way. Don't have the heart to sell it. Since above writing, I have switched to a Topping DAC. While it is extremely performance and has the functionality I need, it is a tiny device and doesn't bring the pride of ownership that the ML had.
You ignore what you can’t even answer yourself about what I said using a single speaker with my jazz.
I don't care what genre you listen to. A single speaker is far easier to analyze than two of them interacting in a different room than what you have, with different music to boot.
Jazz music by the way, makes for poor speaker test music. This is the research on that:
Where is your proof that an $80 DAC.....or any DAC for that matter, is transparent? Where are the listening tests that PROVE what you say? You are lying.....plain and simple. You have no idea what transparency is since you do not listen. Just an ego game......spinning out of control.....the same story....over and over......Meanwhile those that listen, know you are just full of hot air. Your hot air ballon will not make you happy. You have to embrace truth to feel happiness.....I wish you happiness......embrace the truth.
There are tons of reviews on the Eversolo.....and UNIVERSALLY, they say the DAC is the sonic weak point. However, even the streamer is not state of the art......not even close. But for you midfi guys, it is great. The guru of the midfi non believers......what a great title. You will never convince anyone here that you have any REAL knowledge. You just have graphs....and BS. Of course, there is nothing we can say to break up your ego dance/self trance.......and it takes two egos to dance. Are we having fun, yet? However, two pure souls can dance a divine cha cha cha......quite exquisite.
Again, go outside and play. Be in the now. Sing a happy song......that goes for all of us.....including me. This thread has gone on far too long. Let us play another game. I will not play here any more. Enough is enough......this drama is boring....same old thing....over and over......the listeners versus the measurers.
So the only difference between a $200 topping and a 2k dac with meters is meters?
No, it could be anything. I measured a $20,000 DAC last year that a company sent me. Measurements clearly showed that it had the implementation bug we call "ESS IMD Hump" which every major Chinese company had already solved. Even outside of that, performance was ordinary. The DAC had beautiful build, and weight more than any other DAC I have tested. But failed in delivering what matters: transparency for the input signal as a $100 DAC provides.
It is a sad fact that the more you pay for audio electronics today, the more likely it is that you get worse performance. Take that Eversolo DAC:
Look at all that power supply noise and how dirty its spectrum is. Poor attention was paid to circuit layout and design, causing interference from digital circuits to bleed into the sensitive DAC. Clearly Eversolo people know how to better do this job than Mytek.
And it is not like you got something prettier:
This is the power of what we do at ASR. Objective analysis that points out who cared to produce a high fidelity product and who did not.
No, I am just going by the assumption that you are hearing a different sound with tube amps than transistor. That coloration is therefore added to every piece of music, making it different than what the artist intended.
First all tube amp are different as all S.S. amp.
Then it makes no sense to generalize saying that all tube amp are in the same bag : bad coloration.( i bet he does not know Berning Tube amp )
And what the artist intented to do do not represent a single intent but result also from what his recording engineer trade-off set of choices is adding to the artist intent. There is an acoustics complex set of information ( not a simple single intent) which is recorded and must be translated in your Room ACOUSTICALLY. The amplifier type does not play the main role here save for people completely ignorant of acoustics powerful impact .
Putting this double intention of the artist and of the recording engineer in relation with your amplification type is ridiculous.😊
it is complete acoustics ignorance promoting digital gear by a bias directly resulting from his digital software engineering background.
I already discussed all that with Amir here using the work of a designer and physicist Van Maanen one year ago. Amir did not understood anything attacking this physicist reputation in audio ad hominem .. I will not use all this a second time...😁
If me a complete dilettante playing in my dedicated room with acoustics basic can see through this narrow ideology anybody reading science articles can...
Then it is useless to argue... We understand only if we are not paid to be deaf by money, pride or hubris...
@ricevsI can vouch bought an $80 dongle based on a ASR review just for kicks and I can assure you the listening tests correspond to the measurements. That thing is as clear and detailed as I have heard and I’ve heard it all.
I also have a Chord Mojo that got lesser reviews and though I enjoy the Mojo quite a bit as well the sound is much warmer and not as detailed.
Also I picked up a second Fosi amp based on ASR review that I use in a desktop system and that also lives up to the measured performance.
So like him or not Amir is doing something right I would have to say. Probably at least as much as anyone, maybe more. YMMV.
Other gear I own includes Bel Canto, Cambridge, Sonus Faber, KEF, Ohm, Linn and Electrocompaniet. It all sounds really good but different.
I’ve owned tube gear in the past as well and not missing it. The best SS and tube gear tends to sound more similar than different to me over the long term.
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