BTW, can someone explain to me how you evaluate the sound of a product you don't even listen to?
Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews
I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
1. Speaker pricing.
One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.
2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
Showing 26 responses by rankaudio
mahgister12,600 posts I genuinely enjoyed your response and appreciate the feedback. My ignorance is bliss. Couldn't be simpler. |
botrytis171 posts @rankaudio That is nice. Have anything CONSTRUCTIVE to say?
No. I had a very bad experience with him and his henchman in their forum. I'm amazed he hasn't been sued into oblivion by several companies. He's really an oddball and I wouldn't want to bore anyone with the story. |
I base my decisions for audio gear only by how they connect me to the music emotionally. I realize this is just flowery nonsense for tech-heads. I don’t care how a product measures as long as it connects me to the music. I envy a person who sits in a car, listening to what many may consider a substandard car stereo but is enjoying the heck out of the song. The car stereo is connecting the listener to the emotion of the music. It’s that emotional connection I want. I could care less about measurements. Let qualified engineers do that. I am NOT qualified nor do I pretend to be. Amir is just black&white on audio. He doesn't have or express any emotion to connect himself to any music. He reminds me of a robot or AI who has zero emotional connection to gear. He probably has a serious case of alexithymia. |
mahgister
I agree with you, however, you should see what he and his henchman do to others who say anything that doesn’t jive with their cultist methods or how they sensor people who question their methods. Amir deserves everything that was said to him. |
Emotionless listeners have the same MO. They’re mostly civilized and rational because they have no emotion. I judge music and sound based on inner emotion. If I want civilized and rational, we’ll have plenty of that when artificial intelligence/unintelligence takes over. Why do we watch movies that have emotion? We watch them to be entertained because if actors didn’t act with emotion, they would be boring, like robots. You see, we live in this day and age where people think they need to know everything. If I’m watching a magic trick, I don’t want to know how it’s done. I want to be fooled, I want to be entertained. What is sound, what is music without emotion? Singers sing with emotion. That’s what makes them great. What the heck are people listening to these days? Amir needs a chart to tell him what sounds good? He needs it because he doesn’t know himself what sounds good. Amir hates tube amps because they measure bad, yet countless audiophiles love tubes, myself included. The guy wouldn’t pass a blind test to save his life. He needs a chart to tell him.
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mahgisterI must say, you certainly raise excellent points. Really enjoyed your constructive post. Thanks again for sharing that. |
amir_asrYou can still "love" said tube amp but don't go making an argument out of it. It doesn't bother me one bit whatsoever that you don't like certain tube amps, that's not the issue. I have a couple of friends who don't either and it's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. Some people like chocolate ice cream while others like vanilla. BUT, when you purposely trash products by "misrepresenting" them which you obviously seem to enjoy doing, then yes, it causes arguments. You have consistently misrepresented many companies and try to act nice and rational when in fact you are just patronizing others. All that rational demeanor is a load of nonsense. You can still be rational and condescending at the same time and that's exactly what you are. I flat out don't like you and I'm not gonna candy coat it. Look at this response from one of your members to understand what I'm saying. You don't care as long as you have your cult following. Great review @Amir, I’m going to use this as reference to not buy valve gear…..ever! Does that kind of response sound like you are educating others? I politely asked you if you could simply clarify my questions and you would not answer. You simply refuse to match gear properly. How do you intend to listen to a tube amplifier properly if you don't use proper speakers for them? Of course it's not that much power, because you used it with some inefficient Infinity speakers. I had to find out myself from another source because you refused to answer. |
amir_asrWhy in the heck should anyone buy a tube amp when even a good example has this kind of noise and distortion? As if to try to be hip by being contrarians, some audiophiles have clung to tubes, hypnotized by the glowing filaments, convincing themselves that they are hearing better fidelity. This and the rest of your post merely validates my point. You're just a condescending narcissist toward others opinions that don't jive with yours about tubes and an elitist. You don't have an ounce of humility. I'm not arguing against your measurements. You can measure until you are blue in the face because that's all you've ever done. It's you that's bothered by what others like listening to and that's why you purposely pull other peoples posts out of your own forum when they call you out on your errors. I've seen you do this time and time again in your own forum and other members have taken screen shots to prove you do this before pulling them down because they already know you will. What do you care if others like tubes? You feel a need to show measurements as some sort of validation that listeners shouldn't like tubes? Many enjoy tubes because they are colored. You have the audacity to tell others what they should and shouldn't like because your measurements show anomalies you don't like. Oh, they must be hypnotized by those glowing filaments. Well, so what if they like that too? I have a Klipsch The Three which you don't recommend. It sounds fine and it's fun for background listening. What? Now all the sudden I'm not supposed to like it because you did some measurements that don't jive with your ideology? You don't have to match gear if you don't want to. That's obviously not important with your methods according to you, so I'll buy a 3 watt tube amp on amazon and run it with my Magnepan's and complain to my audience about the results. You just get some sense of superiority in your mind by trashing on companies products with your measurements without proper context. In case you didn't know this, there are components that measure well that sound dull, boring and flat, hello? You're a real piece of work Amir. |
I agree with what you are saying and you’re right, it’s not all wrong. I just dislike when Amir takes matters out of context to suit his own agenda and gag others who have legitimate questions or concerns in his forum. Amir even allows his own moderators to trash products they literally have not even listened to themselves just because of a measurement. If Amir had simply answered some basic questions instead of trying to evade them, I would have more respect for him. It’s a matter of principle. I’ve even seen legitimate companies try to share an explanation regarding measurement settings just to try to constructively defend themselves and Amir will pull their posts down for questioning him. It’s awful not to allow a company to constructively and respectfully defend themselves just because one has the power to do it in their own forum. Amir reminds me of Commodus from Gladiator. It’s not humble and it’s disrespectful to hurt companies just trying to defend themselves with legitimate comments and concerns. I have more respect for a bad guy that lets you know he’s a bad guy than a bad guy who tries to act like a good guy. They’re called wolves in sheep’s clothing. Amir’s a big boy, he can handle himself. |
Isn't it interesting Amir how you think audiophiles who look at glowing tubes in the dark are delusional, yet when you look at graphs, you continually convince yourself you are hearing all sorts of horrible distortion. I don't believe you even know what you're listening to most of the time assuming you even take the time to listen in the first place. |
amir_asraudiophiles have clung to tubes, hypnotized by the glowing filaments, convincing themselves that they are hearing better fidelity. Delusional definition - Characterized by or holding false beliefs or judgements. A delusional person believes things that couldn’t possibly be true. So, I see you have a trained listener such as yourself at 100% on your chart and audio reviewers somewhere down at 20%. Let’s also consider that there are millions of audiophiles throughout the world who enjoy the fidelity of tubes, myself included, but they must all be hypnotized by glowing filaments. Let’s also not forget that you’re a trained listener. So, you take a VTA ST70 and you plug in a pair inefficient Infinity speakers and complain to your audience that you’re hearing floppy bass. Oh I forgot, it’s not your responsibility to pair gear properly and let’s not forget those three Emmys as well. Amir, I must say, I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone so self righteous yourself. You’ve definitely earned another Emmy for that. No doubt your BS-meter is at redline. There are many other forums who don’t like your particular methods either. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not disregarding measurements altogether and I’m certainly not against all of them. I just think you need to seek some help for yourself.
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Amir calls himself a professional listener. He sets up "one" Magnepan LRS panel and calls that his listening experiences for the common audience. He then claims his site has millions of views. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if most of those views were readers wondering what this guy has trashed next.
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amir_asrMy job as a reviewer is to give you accurate assessments of products and single speaker Then you’re FIRED! I listen to jazz mostly, so obviously your method of a single speaker is absurd unless a listener is mainly into mono. With older jazz recordings in stereo, certain instruments are often more or less audible in one channel vs the other. Listeners who are familiar with earlier jazz know this because this is very common in many of the older jazz recordings. If I’m listening to speakers, I need to be able to listen in stereo, otherwise certain instruments won’t be audible. If the answer is to change to a more modern recording, then what’s the point. I sometimes use the Magnepan LRS+ and one panel is purposely designed slightly different than the other. This is why the tie-downs are different with each panel. I don’t know how your single speaker scenario would address this and even if it did, listening to a single speaker is absurd anyway unless one is into mono recordings only. You have too many of these charts scattered in your mind and I would never take your listening advise after that hack job of a review you did on the VTA ST70. You refused to tell your audience what speakers you are pairing. You trashed the LRS and Klipsch The Three as well, all of which I enjoy for their purposes. I don’t need your measurements to tell me what I enjoy. You are too overly consumed by measurements and you’re a horrible listener as far as I’m concerned. The overwhelming majority of listeners in this forum think your cultist measuring ideology and attitude is absurd. You yourself can’t even decide what you like because you need all these measurements to tell you, even when they’re wrong. There are many products that measure well that don’t sound good and vice-versa and you don’t explain that. You just see everything black & white. I can’t even fathom how a person like you enjoys listening to music. Your head is so polluted with all this nonsense. |
I’m not necessarily interested in the deep science of listening. I’m interested in enjoying what I’m listening to. It’s too simple for Amir to understand because he wants to throw data at everything. People who behave like this are just not being practical and not everyone who’s an audiophile feels compelled to get deep into the science of this. Show me the data that explains why Michelangelo was a great artist. You get these science nerds who take things so far, they lose sight of what’s practical. They forget common sense and get too lost in their own intricacies. A person can be very smart yet be a horrible teacher. |