2. speakers
  3. 189477-20253

Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Showing 7 responses by ricevs

ricevs
1,475 posts
 

The fundamental problem with ASR and the like is that they believe everything that is meaningful regarding sound reproduction can be measured. In fact, the opposite is mostly true. Most things that can be heard to sound different (and judged to be better by everyone in the room) CANNOT be measured. Here is a list of things that cannot be measured;

1. Wire......all brands and types and whether is is cryoed and which direction you use it in......all SOUND different. Thousands of posts worldwide attesting to this.

2. Resistors.......all brands of resistors and types all sound different....even if they are the same inductance and general material. For instance, I ABed four different tiny surface mount resistors that were using the same material and all were the same size......all sounded different from each other.

3. Capacitors......right now a lot of people all over the world are upgrading their caps in their preamp, amp and speakers. Tons of posts about this all over the net.

4. Connectors.....yes, they all sound different. The guy at Qualio audio stated that the WBT nextgens were the ones for his speakers.

5. Solder......yes, all brands of solder sound different. I did straight wire bypass tests on 5 different types of solder in the early 80s. The reference was 5 inch pieces of wire and then we would solder 5 solder joints onto another piece of the same wire and A/B with the wire without solder joints.....none of the brands of solder passed the test. We chose this custom silver solder as the best and ordered a bunch but 6 months later that latest Wonder Solder was better.....

6. All cables sound different.....interconnect, digital cables, HDMI cables, ethernet cables, power cables, and speaker cables......the best connector is NONE....hard wire whenever possible.

7. Footers and stands all sound different.

8. Getting cables off the floor improves sound.

9. infinity.....everything sounds different.....he he.

Practically nothing above can be measured.....but it all CAN be heard. The die hard believers in the opposite of what I just stated will never listen to find out whether what I just stated is true or not. Here is a story that illustrates this:

3 buddies were invited over to someones house who owned modified Soundlabs speaker and a super front end. One of the 3 was someone who believed that amps sound different but not interconnects......he brough his new buddy who was new to audio and had told this newby about his point of view about wire. One of the other guys brought this cable (remember the peanut butter and jelly cable by Kimber?) to A/B with my friends super litz cable that he got the idea of in a dream. When they went to A/B the cables the non believer went into the kitchen so he would not have to be in the room. Of course, he could hear the sound from the kitchen and hear their commentary. All three in the room heard the same differences (quite marked). After they were done the non believer pulled his head our the the sand and rejoined them. They did even bother trying to talk to him about what they heard for they knew he was stubborn. If he would have stayed in the room and heard the difference he would have been WRONG for all those years. And if he stayed and then stated that they both sounded the same then he would have been given the stare by them......meaning...Are you deaf? They would never trust what he says again. Of course, the ego cannot handle those two scenarios......so best just to avoid listening.

This is what is going on in the objectivist camp.....they just keep stating the same things over and over and then go onto forums where 90% believe otherwise and point fingrers. Of course, they kick off their forum anyone who looks like the enemy.....they kicked me off. Once they saw that I sell and promote things that cannot be measured they started calling me a thief and con man........and we don’t want thiefs and conmen on our forum now, do we. They claim that I pray on the gullible.......what a laugh. I sell my inexpensive tweaks with a 30 day money back quarantee and everyone likes them......must be a lot of fools out there.....I mean, you cannot trust your own hearing. Who is more gullible? The people that try things in their own homes and decide for themselves or a bunch of followers of a cult that professes to have all the answers?

It certainly is simpler and cheaper to be an objectivist.....heck you just need any old source, a $700 preamp....a $700 DAC a $1000 amp, $1 a foot cables and whatever cheap speakers that measure flat and can handle power and you are good to go. If the latest DAC measures slightly better then you could or could not "upgrade".....since there really is no upgrading because what you have now is perfect. Yes, indeed a gullible illusion. REAL SCIENTISTS actually try things. The best INSTRUMENT for measuring sound reality is your EARS. However, you must have your heart and mind open to begin down the road of true knowledge.....If you live in your righteous ego based mind....you will never know the truth.

What I just stated is not going to convince anyone to shift their position. As long as the ego remains the supreme ruler we will never agree......the ego likes separation and fighting. The heart loves unity and oneness. I love everyone.....no matter what your silly mind thinks......and I know your soul.....in every one of you....loves me. Kisses and Hugs for everyone......forever. You are all infinitly beautfful.

ricevs
1,475 posts
 

I think you are giving him to much power. Most people see through their game and I doubt that he has put anyone out of business. Hopefully we learn not to repeat bad behavior or thinking. If we resist him seriously then he gets stronger. For whatever you resist.....persists. We are the creators here. If we want to create a loving and intelligent world then we need to act loving and intelligent. Making him an enemy or putting him down is not intelligent. Whatever you put you mind on.....you become. Allow him to be just he way he is. He is beautiful and in time he will realize this more and more. This is of course true for all of us. Concentrate on the positive. Be happy. Be of service to everyone.......just don’t give energy/attention to those that are not in the greatest service. Don’t be a fighter/critic.....be a beacon of light. Just state your truth and let it go. We are all bozos on the bus. We are all learning. Let him have his playground......and let us play in our own playground.......one that is filled with infinite possibilities.

BTW, basic speaker measurements are super important. If you do not have a calibrated mic and some good software......HUH?.....why not? (very inexpensive). Speaker frequency response measurements in your room are highly informative. Especially direct sound readings. Having super off axis response is great for group listening or listening on the side of the room.......but in the hot seat (which always sounds the best even with a super great dispersion speaker)...what you hear is mostly what the mic says. If you stand up and don’t like the sound.....but never listen that way.....they why would you care. If you want sound that is great from all points in the room (standing, sitting. way off to the side) then you need a super dispersion speaker. Me, I sit in one spot.....that is where I measure. And when I measure reasonably flat response......that is how it sounds.

Most all preamps, DACs and amps measure flat frequency response......so their measurements mean very little. When Danny Richie gets in a speaker to mod the first thing he does in measure the frequency response......then he tweaks it. It is incredible how many speakers he gets in that do not measure well and his fixes are very, very simple. Almost anyone can do what Danny does. You measure and you get one of the free xover programs out there and go to town.......the program does most the the work by telling you what values to use and how to make it flat. You then put the components in and re-measure and fine tune. This is not rocket science......There is no reason a manufacturer should make a speaker that has crazy bad response......no reason. Does not need to happen in todays world.....Crossover design is mostly a science......of course, the parts you use and the execution all change the sound......but flat frequency response is easy as pie in todays world

ricevs
1,475 posts
 

Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.

So, are numbers on a distortion meter evidence? Sorry, no. Evidence in audio is how something sounds. You have to start with the sound and then try and figure out a way to measure it so we can repeat the great sound.....or avoid the bad sound. If you start with a myth (made up in Amir’s mind) that a certain SINAD number means total transparency (without any actual listening tests to prove it) then you have zero science.....basically it is ASR....Anti Science Review....or Amir’s Seance Review (channeling dead deaf people). It is simply childish pretense that would lead someone to think a number on a graph means something in REALITY without actually checking reality. Reality in audio.....is how something is perceived by the ear......its called "sound"....percieved by doing listening tests. Real Audio science would be to listen to various things and see if you can hear a difference......if you hear a difference between say two cables......then try and find some way of quantifying it (including measurements).....THIS IS SCIENCE!!!!! The whole purpose of science to to discover what are the underlying things that make something the way it is so we can understand it and use the knowledge to better our REALITY.....and in this case our reality is how something sounds.

Yes, I am one of those who have been kicked off ASR. They did not like my point of view and threw rocks at me.....and when they found out I did mods that do not change the measurements and that I sold "tweaks" that improve the sound but that cannot be measured.....they naturally wanted to string me up for being a "immoral rip off dude"......so within hours I was banished to heaven......for ASR is HELL....he he.....They certainly gave me hell.........so childish.

Here is a guy who hears the difference between cables and amps and lots of stuff and he is trying his best to find some reason why these 32 cables all sound different......this is real science.....unlike the fairy tale on ASR.

Happy Mothers day. I am your Mother and I love you all with all my heart and soul. You are my Mother and you love me with all your heart and soul. We are all the Mother......loving herself....and her children......we are the children, we are the Mother.....please be kind.....our mother wants us to be kind.

ricevs
1,475 posts
 

Your first sentence seems to come from: "I am an advanced college Physics teacher and I will tell all you kindergartners what is real. You are all too young and ignorant to understand but someday after you get your Doctorate you will then know that I speak truth."

Very funny....qualia, invariant properties, Fourier, abstract ratios, pychoacoustics. I get what you are saying, but most just roll their eyes (including me, most of the time) when you post. Just too dang many words.........I just say, "you need to listen to know anything".......I like to use the fewest words possible. If you have to say the simple truth in an encylopedia......well, I would rather put my mind and heart on the LOVE OF LOVES.

I think you should tell jokes or describe something really amazing and beautiful.....this post is a joke......and you are beautiful.....and you do not have to prove it to anyone.

Let us be still and listen and feel the divine Mother loving us.....right now and forever.......then send that love out to all our childrem (everyone on the entire planet).

ricevs
1,475 posts
 

Divine Mother just says yes to everything.....including what you do

Divine Father is here to teach you how to act loving. 

When you embody both.....you have a great parent.  The Divine mother part of us says first and most important of all.....I love you, you are beautiful and I am grateful and blessed by your presence.  Then the Divine Father part of us steps in and says....er...son or daughter....your behavior right then was not loving.....and I am here to teach you how to be more loving.....so don't do that behavior again....understand?  Then Divine mother steps in again and tells the child how much they are loved.  Of course, the child will test the parents and this game repeats itself....however, the second time the Father says......we already went throug this once......so, if you do this again.....there will be a consequence you will not like.......then when the child does it again.....the father actualy implements the deterent as the child is being stubborn.  All the while divine mother is loving the child.

When we take our ego postion as some serious reality that needs defending then when daddy says our behavior is not great then we get angry and defensive.....we want to hurt daddy.......however, Mommy is always there loving you and daddy is actually just loving you too.  It is for your benefit that 'coach daddy" corrects us.    We become better and more loving people.  We are all "coach daddy" for each other. WE are not our ego, our opinion, we don't need to fight or argue with anyone.  We can just state our truth.  And the daddy in each of us can see the ego in each other.  Most of us are afraid to confront the ego of someone else as we don't think much of ourself and we would not want that person talking about us.....or pointing out our flaws.  What a stupid mess.....he he.  We are ALL here to grow in love and truth......and therefore we need to be able to hear what daddy has to say....and see if it is true and take the appropriate actions to make ourselves better. 

On a public forum we cannot be alpha to another.....we are all equals.  We are each others parent and child but we cannot lay down "behavior modification techniques" like a parent to a child.  However, we can still tell it like we see it.  For that helps people to grow.  They might fight against your point of view......but their soul hears the truth (if any) that you might say.  So please, tell the truth.....always...it always serves us.  To take personally what someone else says about us is childish.  Everyones thoughts are simply them talking to themselves.  This is me talking to myself.  Who actually replies to Mahgister?.....not many. Who is he talking to?......himself.  We all talk a lot to ourself.....but is what we say to ourself the TRUTH?......or just made up fiction.

I try to make my words a teaching so others can learn to have better sound and a happier life.....more and more that is all I care about.  Why do you post?  Do you think that anyone really cares about what you say?  Are you helping anyone?  I mean helping them get a better stereo or more happiness?

The truth is very simple. If you need a lot of words and paragraphs and posts to say what you could have said in a sentence or one paragraph....then why are you doing it?  I would love to hear some simply stated words from Maghister about some things that would actually improve my sound or my happiness.  I don't want to hear the word "acoustics" said over and over.  I want some real knowledge that I can implement so I have larger goosebumps when listening.  That is what I want......a better stereo.....and most peopel here...that is what they want.  Will you help us get better sound......with very, very, very simple words?......so we don't tune you out because we have no idea what you are talking about.  Will you make my dreams come true.  Please help me.....divine mother that lives is Mahgister........MA....Ma...it is your name....you are the MA.....she always says YES, Si, DA, JA, Hai....in every language.  Yes, to everyone.....and especially the MA...hgister.

ricevs
1,475 posts
 

I have not read his reivew of the Nordost digital cable.....but I KNOW.....through listening tests that all digital cables sound different.  If Amir thinks he knows what something sounds like (or thinks it has no sound) without listening to it......it is the same as someone knowing what a certain brand of chocolate tastes like by measuring it.  Our senses rule....they are more sensitive than any test gear.  Check this out.....this will make all you anti snake oil people cringe....he he.

 

ricevs
1,475 posts
 

Mahgister,

I don't need to read articles about sound to know how to listen.  I know how to tweak my system and room pretty darn well (considering money and space restraints).  I learn new tweaks all the time and I am open to anything direct and practical you or anyone can say to help my system be more transparent. 

I really don't care that Amir and the like believe the way they do.  I don't NEED to prove him wrong.  However, the truth should be told so that people can see what is real and not real.  Very simple.  Please keep fighting, if you desire, and trying to prove yourself (evenually you will see your own beauty and magnificence and not try and prove yourself any more) and prove Amir wrong.  I have no need to fight him or you......but I will point out what I see.....and that includes how we act with each other and how we talk to each other.  Everything from the souls perspective can be upgraded.....to the highest love and wisdom that is possible.

We can look at our motivation factor....every second....What are we wanting with the behavior and feelings that we put out.  Are we defending ourself or are we being of service?.......is it ego or agape?.....or somewhere in between?......and if it can be upgaded to more love (agape)...then how can I act differently to raise my vibration?......for everything is vibration.  Love and joy are the highest vibration and can be experienced continuously.....no....I am not there yet.  But I have met a few people who embody continuous love and joy.

You could talk forever to Amir and read him all the books in the world and it will NOT change his mind (ie...from my point of view....you are wasting your time).  This is how the ego works......it defines and defends......usually till death of the body.  Fortunately...we have infinite lifetimes to get it right.......and let go of our points of view.   For the only attitude that is worthwhile is love and gratitude.  Everything else is BS.  Amir is perfectly fine the way he is...same with you and me.  But we need to speak our truth.  Be a love addict....it is the most fun....and gives the best benefit to all.  Sending you much love.

We take ourselves far to seriously.  WE ARE NOT OUR EGO.....we are not our Characters that we play....we are not our opinions.....we are not our body....we are not our country...nothing anyone can say really NEEDS to hurt us (we make it up that we can be hurt by others...it is an illusion).  Of course, our bodies can be hurt.....but our emotional bodies....we have total control over them....(if you are awake and not acting from you subconscious mind)....We are here to learn this.....for......we are INFINITE spirit/love/joy....always were and always will be.  Everything else just fades away....because in the illusion of time.....everything dies.  When you live in eternity....you care less and less about opinions and what others think......you are too busy blissing out and blessing others.  Whatever you put your consciousness on......you become........What do you want to become?

I send everyone love, bliss and blessings.....forever.

More to discover