@audition__audio
"As if all tube amp designs are the same and display the same characteristics."
Yes, he has not "reviewed" any Doshi, Ayon or other hi end tube amps, has he?
Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews
I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
1. Speaker pricing.
One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.
2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
Showing 27 responses by laoman
I agree with the above post. Also what really annoys me about Amir is that he comes here to express his opinions and argues. That is fine but then DO NOT BOOT PEOPLE OFF YOUR OWN SITE if they hold contrary opinions to your minions. If you come here, then others should be able to present their opinions on ASR.
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@amir_asr Secondly only a half wit assesses speakers by testing only one. Spakers are listened to in pairs. Thirdly you are a hypocrite - you throw people off your own site for expressing contrary opinions yet come here and bleat your opinions like a goat. |
"We all focus on performance." " I don’t know why you all don’t let this concept sink in by spending just a few minutes learning about the topic instead of relying on your lay intuition."Why should anyone listen to you? You have nothing important to add. "If you act this unprofessional" I am unprofessional? What a joke. You are arrogant with nothing to be arrogant about, you are rude and overbearing. It is no wonder you are so disliked and have been thrown off so many fora. Go back to your cult an your minions.
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"Now you resort to name calling and insults because you’ve run out of intelligent ways to defeat Amir and ASR. " The minion reinforcements have arrived to support the cult leader. How pathetic that the minions regard this as a battle to defeat someone. Amir is just a rude, obnoxious, arrogant person who actually knows very little. It looks like the cult leader needs support to try and persuade us of our failings. "You probably got kicked out for being unintelligent on ASR - a site full of engineers and physicists." I suggest you go back and play with your $2.00 dongle that measures superbly. Seriously I have never come across a less educated rabble than on ASR. |
@amir_asr I do not understand why Amir comes here to peddle his cultist religion. No one listens or is interested. Go away and do not come back. Most other sites have banned you; you are lucky this one has not. Maybe if you did not throw people off your site for precisely what you do on this site, others might listen a bit more. Do not presume you can teach us, because it is completely obvious you do not know much. "Over 2 million people visit ASR every month." No. You might get 2 million hits a month, that is a far cry from 2 million people or is that part of your bulldust again?. In my case I pop in once a week or so to see what latest stupidity is being peddled and to read and laugh at the comments from your sycophantic minions. I could mention some but what is the point? |
The best way to deal with Mahgister’s incredibly soporific posts and Amir’s nonsense is to ignore them both. I scroll past anything by Mahgister because if I want to sleep I will take a Mogadon. As an aside, if anyone wants to see Amir called out for poor testing practices, I suggest you read this thread: |
If you want to take notice of measurements I suggest you look at Erin’s Audio Corner. He is far more professional and thorough than Amir. Interestingly Amir could not stand the competition and so banned Erin from ASR. Even many ASR minions thought this was unfair. In typical Amir fashion he shut down the thread because he was afraid some minions would support Erin and leave the cult. This is what Amir always does when he is challenged. |
@markwd "but I do encourage you to continue to research, learn," It is this incredible arrogance and condescending superciliousness from Amir and his minions that most of us find unacceptable. I could just as easily say go away, listen and hopefully one day learn. The reason no one reacted and discussed Mahgister's articles is not because no one understands them but rather because he repeats them ad nauseam and bores the pants off everyone. |
@amir_asr"When I asked him how long I can have it, he said whatever I need since he had bought a Topping DAC for a fraction of the price and it sounded every bit as good to him!" Did it last more than a week or did he then have to buy another one? Because as you know their quality control is sterling.
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@amir_asr "If that is the definition of "genius," then I am the sharpest tool in the shed. 😁 Members do indeed donation significant amount of money to ASR." "As an aside, "audition__audio" made it clear from his first post he was a dealer, you need to read more carefully. |
"The main problem with ASR is Amir. If he were a congenial host who conceded that there are many ways to audio bliss which can include exotic and/or high end gear, he wouldn’t be demonized."
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"Rather than paint with such a broad brush that it precludes the reader from gaining any actual knowledge and understanding. Why not give specific examples of Amir's rude behaviour and clarify what actions violate "basic manners"? With all due respect, both others and I have given many examples of Amir's rude, condescending behaviour in this thread and in others. Read the whole of this thread for examples. |
"If you all just learned how to properly test equipment so that only the fidelity is being evaluated, then these arguments would all go away. Instead, you keep doing faulty testing, with all manner of mistakes and biases and arrive at conclusions that are not supported by any science or engineering." |
ASR stands for Audio Science Review? Wow, who would have known? Based on the comments therein I always thought it stood for Audio Stupid Review. The number of people there, including the minion leader. ( I almost said Grue, but Grue is likeable), who pretend they know something about science but in reality know nothing is legion. |