Solo streamer

@soix

you never fail to meet expectations.  thank you for providing a reliable, calming source of anger and nastiness.  in this moment of cultural unrest and division in our country, we have so few places where we are not buffetted by the winds of violent change.  thank god for you, our port in the storm.

@rvpiano Thank you for your post! I appreciate the opportunity to follow your journey, yours always have an excellent outcome whether you keep the gear or send it back.
I’m not sure why some are so emotionally invested in how you spend your hard earned money. I hope it doesn’t dissuade you from continuing to share your journey.

Rvpiano is notorious for being hostile, mdalton. 
I would strongly advise to keep away from any forum he’s part of. You never know what other methods he’ll come up with to offend you. He may even like his new streamer when it arrives, which would be simply terrible. 

@mdalton  You very sadly can’t hear differences between streamers, and that’s a non starter and makes any further discussion with you on the topic pointless because you simply can’t understand what you can’t hear.  So you and the four other people here who likewise think streamers don’t make a difference can just go on thinking that, and you can just keep rocking that iFi Zen Stream and Pro-Ject Stream Box believing that’s as good as it gets and good for you.  The other 98% of us will enjoy exploring and enjoying better streamers and better sound while you go on believing we’re all kidding ourselves.  Ya gotta kinda wonder about the lopsided difference in personal experience there, don’t ya?  Or does that just somehow not compute in your mental equation?  I’d like to think that if I ever found myself in the extreme minority here on some topic that I’d have the self awareness and humility to consider that maybe — just maybe — my compass was off, but you be you.  Regardless, I’m done banging my head against some mad bugger’s wall.  Peace out. 

@rvpiano

nope.  just take a look at my first post on this thread, where I said:

“Here’s a link to a recent thread where competing perspectives on this issue are discussed:“

recent streamer

I didn’t suggest to you that the alternate view to mine was stupid, incoherent or wrong.  Instead, I pointed you to a thread where both sides of the question were explored.  So I’m really having a tough time understanding your hostility to me,  But hey, knock yourself out.  

@mdalton,

Do you include yourself as one of the “dogmatists on this forum” from your  definition?

@rvpiano

not what I said.  Here’s a definition:  person who believes too strongly that their personal opinions or beliefs are correct.

We can discuss further, but perhaps the person who engages in ad hominem attacks at the mere mention of an alternate view is a dogmatist.  

@soix

exactly.  and I’ve not once accused you of making yourself “look utterly foolish”, because that’s a personal attack. I certainly disagree with you, but I don’t insult your intelligence or suggest your posts are “pointless.” We simply disagree.  I think you honestly believe what you think, just as I do.  (Reminds me of a great management aphorism though: “Don’t always believe what you think.”)  

Anyway, let’s see if you can be a little more civil.  I’ll break down my statements in a format that’s easier for you to react to.  Why don’t you tell me, by #, which ones you disagree with, and then we can have an actual, potentially constructive conversation.  (Remember, you’re not allowed to assume a statement not in evidence.)

Statement #1:  Measurements can provide insight into what we hear.

Statement #2:  Measurements can’t possibly do full justice to what we hear in the analog realm, including DACs.

Statenent #3:  Streamers don’t matter if they meet certain basic engineering requirements, which can be measured.

Statement #4:  With respect to noise, measurements provide more accurate insight than subjective listening tests, particularly for gear where the only known differences are noise.

I’m pretty sure we agree violently on #1 and #2, but I wouldn’t want to assume anything.  Looking forward to your (civil) response.

So the fact that others disagree with you makes them dogmatic. 
 

Interesting concept.

my listening obsevations  from 20 (not 30, sorry) years experience is that there are no differences.

Ibid.

@abnerjack

see what I mean?  ad hominem.  

@soix @rvpiano

my listening obsevations  from 20 (not 30, sorry) years experience is that there are no differences.  And others on this forum have had the same experience.  so again, not fitting into your little box, sorry.

@mdalton,

How is it being a dogmatist when you state, in your experience,
one streamer sounds better than another? Are those who say that, delusional or liars? Rather, isn’t it being a dogmatist to insist, in spite of observational evidence, that these observations are incorrect, but that statistics indicate the reality?

Yeah, the dogmatists on this forum have a hard time figuring out what to do with me.  They want to put me in a box that just doesn’t fit. 

@mdalton  Yeah, the box you’re in is that you’re sadly incapable of hearing differences between streamers like almost all other people here very easily can and have, and as a result you’re reduced to only using a couple numbers to evaluate streamer performance.  That the vast majority of people here can easily hear differences between streamers is why your “alternative view” is just simply disregarded and will continue to be useless here, but you’re certainly free to keep spewing it and feeling frustrated if that’s your bag.  You think you’re providing some kinda service here by saying things like streamers have no sound when all you’re really doing is making yourself look utterly foolish to the vast majority here who’ve heard that to absolutely not be true with their own ears.  I’ll say again — they’ve heard significant differences between streamers with their own ears and spouting numbers will never overcome that so ultimately your little crusade here is just pointless.

@abnerjack

lol!  Yeah, the dogmatists on this forum have a hard time figuring out what to do with me.  They want to put me in a box that just doesn’t fit.  I am a tubes and vinyl guy who thinks that measurements can provide insight into what we hear.  I don’t think that measurements can possibly do full justice to what we hear in the analog realm, which includes DACs, of course.  I’ve been streaming for 30 years, and I don’t believe streamers matter if they meet certain basic engineering requirements, which can be measured.  And whenever we talk about noise, I think measurements give much more accurate insight than subjective listening tests, particularly for gear where the only known differences are noise (e.g., streamers, network switches, etc.)!  Radical positions, I know.

I recognize that my passion on this stuff can be off-putting to some.  I just see this area of the industry (streamers, etc.) as full of misinformation, and it drives me nuts.  I’ve seen no credible theoretical explanation of the differences among streamers other than jitter and power supply noise.  Indeed, manufacturers brag about their low jitter, low noise streamers, and yet give absolutely no data in their specs.  It’s easy to measure, so why wouldn’t they do that?  

The only consistent source of good data on this in the mainstream audio press is Paul Miller at HiFi News, and he shows no material differences in jitter across streamers that range in price from £500 to £33,000!  Even Stereophile has stayed away from this issue.  It’s a scandal, IMHO, but I’m the bad guy for trying to protect our community from this?  

So yeah, it’s a little frustrating.  But I figure it’s worth it if I provide an alternative view that helps a few members avoid making a mistake. 

I agree with those who are recommending an upgrade of the DAC.  This will surely be your best bang for the buck.  I did a DAC upgrade it it's really like getting a whole new system.  That dramatic in my rig.  Good luck and cheers.  

Last month I did what rvpiano is proposing. Bought a new Aurender N200 and added it to an ~$2k (Ayre Codex) DAC. Glorious sound quality. Haven't streamed Tidal or Qobuz yet. Been playing my files off the internal SSD. Another thread said there wouldn't be any improvement over the Oppo BDP105 and Ayre playing the same files from external hard drive.The Aurender definitely sounds better.

Thanks,

aldnorab 

@mdalton  You absolutely can't have any audiophile street cred if you don't buy in to the "everything new and more expensive is better"  shtick.  Luckily not all of us accept this spew.  Of course there has to be a base line, entry level.  How far above that one must go is an individual decision.  I think the Bluesound node is an excellent streamer.  I don't feel the need to wear a price tag as a badge of honor.

For the record, my digital setup is :  Bluestream node n130 into Benchmark dac3 hgc, directly into Bryston 4bsst2, and then Magnepan 1.7.  Sometimes I alternate the Herron preamp and the Kef meta ls50 into the mix.  The sound with these variations is outstanding to my ear, but what do I know?  I have recently found a nice pair of used Sennheiser 800, and with the Benchmark dac the sound is remarkable.  I do think the headphone amp in the Benchmark is somewhat lacking and am looking for an upgrade to the Quicksilver tube amp.  I don't feel the need for any further upgrades.  But again what do I know?  

Reminds me of my favorite all time bumper sticker. "You just think you're happy" ( Bloomington, In. 1970).  In this case I just think I'm happy with my sound. 

@abnerjack

Yeah, I saw your post and basically agreed.  As you’ve no doubt noticed, I’m a streamer skeptic, but you can’t have it both ways.  You can’t claim that streamers sound different, different tonality even, and then argue that you can’t hear the difference with a revealing DAC.  These two ideas are in violent conflict.  What’s not inconsistent is if somebody thinks a $10k DAC is more “full-bodied”, “refined”, blah, blah blah, but that has nothing to do with the streamer.  DACs sound different. Duh.

@mdalton I defended the Benchmark in an earlier post against those who had belittled it, but got no response.  I agree with what you are saying.

Respectfully, I do not understand the posts that suggest the OP won’t know what the Aurender is capable of with his current DAC.  The one thing most agree on with respect to the Benchmark DAC is that it is highly resolving, very transparent.  The most common criticism of it is that it is too analytical.  But regardless of where you stand on that, how can it be that an uber-resolving DAC won’t reveal exactly what a streamer is, or is not, doing?  

My experience and mine alone - I use a Lumin, U1 Mini (has no DAC) fed into a Line Magnetic, LM502ca Tube/SS DAC with extaordinary exotic NOS tubes. I also have a Canor, DAC 2.10 that I’m rolling better tubes into soon but right now, I prefer the LM502ca as I’m super used to its presentation. The LM was $1800-ish 8yrs ago but go for about $8-900 preowned today, also, (new tubes $500). The Canor was $4K and the Lumin was about $2K & the S Boster (a must) was, I think, $350. Money invested seems to be in step with the equal dollares spent on each, prob by coincidence, however it’s an amazing streaming set up. I use an Audience, AU24e Digital BNC cable as well and AU24e RCAs to my Calypso Signature prefering those connections to balanced. My feeling is that the Aurender may be overkill in your system unless you plan to up your DAC game at some point. Albiet a wonderful piece, you wont know just how great that Aurender can be unless you, and deoesn’t have to be right away, upgrade your DAC. Oh, and yes, would be helpful to know the rest of your gear. $6K+ is a "real number" and I don’t think you need to spend that to realize great streaming. It’s more about choosing the right pieces. Just my opinion & I wish you luck!

@cleeds

  I used a company that networks small offices for Ethernet wiring.  An electrician can do it but there are so many companies that do this for IT and are less expensive.  

@rvpiano

I also needed a no-nonsense high end streamer with wifi connectivity and bought a Métronome DSS. It is from a french company. Less known, especially in the US, but sounds great and looks good too. 

@mdalton Interesting to hear that the HiFi News & RR lab reports show that the Pro-ject streamer has very low levels of jitter and other noise.

@aldnorab I've only tried one Wi-Fi extender, but the improvement it made over using the streamer's built-in Wi-Fi was immediately obvious.

One way to improve your current digital source is my removing noise from your system. I got an Audioquest Niagara 1200 power conditioner. It's been useful in unlocking more clarity and resolution.

Although I’m now really liking my current streamer, I have nothing to lose in trying the Aurender so I probably will let the sale go through.

Do different WiFi extenders sound different? Anyone try more than one?

Thanks,

aldnorab 

I agree with those that have suggested the mesh router / network system. This is what I do, using the Netgear Orbi 6 around my house. I initially used a high quality ethernet cable straight from the satellite to my streamer but since have put in a few more steps (switch, etc).

Many streamers with wifi will suffer sonically as wifi is a source of noise, and digital signals are quite delicate and susceptible to noise  

Again, as both a dealer for Cambridge and Aurender, I believe you will be surprised at how much more information you will get from any Aurender.

True story - I once had a customer come in with his CXN V2 (streamer only, using its digital outs) to compare to an N200. Both were hooked up to a T+A DAC 200. We first played a few songs on the CXN v2, then we hooked up the N200. It took all of 10 seconds once the N200 was playing music for the guy say “I’m buying it.” The improvement in clarity, transparency, and soundstage immersion is immediately noticeable.

@calvinandhobbes

(love your handle!)

your experience is consistent with what I’ve been arguing here: streamers don’t have a sound.  The difference across streamers is just differences in jitter and other noise.  So the best streamers just get out of the way so you can hear your dac, amp, preamp and speakers.  And btw, if you look at the lab reports section of the HiFi News review of your streamer, it has vanishingly low amounts of jitter and other noise.

I have to say that the Pro-ject Stream Box S2 Ultra connected to a Denafrips Pontus II DAC sounds surprisingly good for its price. I got it as a starting point expecting to upgrade it. I'll admit ,it looks like a toy, but I'm realizing how good it sounds in comparison to much more expensive equipment.  in last two years, I've been listening to more expensive streamer-DACs to see what spending more money can get. 

A $14.5K dCS Bartok was okay. I was QUITE surprised to come away from that listening session thinking that I liked the sound of my setup better for 1/6 of the price. A $32k dCS Rossiini was good objectively, but it didn't  capture my attention. The only thing that I found that I liked better than my current setup was the Linn Organik DAC in the Klimax network music player. I think you can get the same DAC in a $22k Selekt setup.

+1 Aurender + extender. Capable of outstanding sound quality.

I thought that the WiFi connection was a tick sonically below the wired connection.

I had a similar experience with my secondary system via Wi-Fi with or without the extender. The degrading is ever so slight but audible.

THANKS!

When you upgrade it is nice to leave a little 'upside buffer'.  The N200 gives him this.  If he CHOOSES to upgrade the DAC one day, at least the streamer will be ready.  And to many ears, the N200 does sound better than the N150.  So leave the man alone.  Enjoy @rvpiano!

I used powerline adapters for a few years and don’t recommend going that route.  I ultimately bit the bullet and paid someone to Ethernet wire the home ( and simultaneously install an antenna for OTA TV signals, as both of these required going deep in my attic and was beyond my physical abilities to do so).

  Coincidentally I had to interrupt the Ethernet connection for one of my VXN streamers and go WiFi (I was painting where the room where the Ethernet comes out of a wall).  I thought that the WiFi connection was a tick sonically below the wired connection.

  The OP was prepared to spend a chunk on a new streamer, I think in the 8 K range.  For a fraction of that he can pay for a first class Ethernet setup.  I think that it will make his current streamer a bit better, and if he ever decides that he really needs a component that requires hardwire, he is all set to go

You’ll know when you hear it. Give the N200 at least 10 days to settle by running it 24/7 (just set the queue to repeat all tracks). Don’t jump to conclusions too early. 
The included USB cable is actually not terrible so if you don’t have a good USB on hand, I wouldn’t hesitate and use the “stock” cable. 
 

Thanks for the tips.  I’m reconsidering.

Complicating the issue is that I’m now liking  my current streamer and don’t know how much better the Aurender will be.

We’ll see!

a hard wired connection is not feasible for me and Aurender does not have WiFi connectivity.

As others have said, all is not lost!  Get Mesh or a Wi-Fi extender and go hardwired from that to the Aurender.  @ghdprentice uses a Wi-Fi extender with his uber-expensive Aurender with great results.  Plus, you really don’t wanna use any streamer with pure Wi-Fi because the Wi-Fi receiver in the streamer can greatly compromise performance so you’ll be better off using a mesh/extender no matter what streamer you use.  Stick with the N200!

@lanx0003  You seem to be missing the point.  The OP likes his Dac3, and I agree with him.  His question is about a STREAMER.  You seem to have cherry picked one negative review regarding the Benchmark, despite the many positive ones.  You may not know it, but not everyone thinks that newer is better.  Some are in love with the dac in their older cd players.

Did you know that the OP is a classical music aficionado and believes that his dac renders the music correctly?  Many agree with him.  For example:

"I concluded my May 2004 review of Benchmark's DAC1 by calling it an "audiophile bargain." The same applies to the DAC3 B. Highly recommended for Class A+ in Stereophile's Recommended Components, along with the DAC3 HGC, which Benchmark says sounds identical.—John Atkinson"

FWI this is from March 2023 https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-dac3-hgc-da-preamplifier-headphone-amplifier-benchmark-dac3-b 

I'd think the quality bump of the N200 would be worth running $200 of CAT6 cable a few feet. Just an idea. 

@jazzman7, thanks for the correction regarding I2S being synchronous.  All the more reason then to spend a bit more then on the streamer and maybe a bit less on a DAC if you aren't going to be using the DACs' femtoclock circuitry. 

with respect to streamers, Goldensound recommends the ifi Zen stream ($400), Holo Red ($800), and Pi2 Design Mercury ($600).

+1, @jazzman7

@rvpiano,

Mesh network is a better and robust alternative to WiFi. Check out eero mesh network,

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08ZK3D89L?ref=ods_en_vicc_firefly_nrc_ucc

Don’t waste your money, time and efforts on mediocre streamers like iFi Zen Stream, Pro-Ject S2 Ultra Streambox, Primare NP5 Prisma, raspberry Pi.

@moonwatcher

Just an fyi that I2S is synchronous.

With I2S the clock in the streamer will be the boss clock.

And unlike AES or Spdif, where the clock and data transmissions are multiplexed, with I2S the clock and data lines are separated from each other within the cable.

@rvpiano 

If you set up a simple Mesh Network, a Mesh access point with ethernet ports can facilitate using wifi to connect to a component that does not support wireless.

Yes, that was exactly what I was saying earlier.

If he sticks with a "not bad but not great" DAC, based on GoldenSound’s evaluation during the N200 evaluation period, he may not hear much difference or improvement due to the DAC’s limitations. Then what is the point?

The OP picked the most affordable DAC ($2k) from the 2017 Stereophile recommended A+ list, then chose a much more expensive streamer ($6.5k) based on some dealer’s personal experience. He did not bother to audition the Innuos streamer, which the majority of audiophiles here recommend, but instead chose to trust a random dealer and made an expensive purchase right away within a couple of hours. I would say this is a decision made in a rush manner.

I suggest stopping the defense of the B. DAC3 being an A+ class DAC based on today’s standards. GoldenSound is a credible reviewer, and his assessment is worth considering. There is no point in going through this experiment when you know the downstream analog component might not keep up with the upstream digital transporter, thereby defeating or invalidating the subsequent evaluation of the new streamer.

In terms of what DAC matches comparably with the N200, there are many options, but in my opinion combining what credible reviewers and you have mentioned, Chord (Dave; $14k), DCS (Lina; $13.5k), Mola Mola ($13.4k), Denafrips (Terminator + 12th; $10.3k), and Weiss (501; $10k) are possible contenders. Before taking on the Holo May ($5.5k) route, consider the Laiv Harmony ($2.7k):

Laiv Harmony DAC Review - Soundnews.

As a rule of thumb, you want to spend 1.5-2 times the money on a DAC compared to the streamer when the price is not a subject, although the cost is understandably never the only criterion justifying the purchase.

Can you add a second router? My internet comes into the house upstairs. I use an Asus router.  I added a second Asus router downstairs close to my streamer.  Now, I can hardwire to the streamer. 

oh, or make your own using Raspberry Pi for less than $200.

iFi Zen Stream, Pro-Ject S2 Ultra Streambox, Primare NP5 Prisma, Volumio Rivo

I just read the N200 manual. It’s not compatible with my needs , as a hard wired connection is not feasible for me and Aurender does not have WiFi connectivity.

SO, NEVER MIND! I won’t be buying it.

Can anyone suggest a quality streamer that has WiFi connectivity?

As always, solid advice from Blisshifi.....   I really didn't NEED to upgrade my  Vault 2i , but I am glad I own the N200.   I stream a lot,  so to me it was a worthwhile purchase that made streaming even better.