Okay a few things…Wilson’s are not dull! The cables are the worst and Dagastino gear is more musical now and takes away some bite.
The average Wilson dealer does this stupid combination and if it is an NYC dealer they will always put the speakers to close to a wall because in NYC all the rich wives don’t want to see the speakers in the middle of the room even if they are 700 pounds!!!
Tell the dealer to switch amps and throw out those dull cables and try different brands! Siltec or Nordost Valhalla 2 will give it the viagra you need! Also better amps from DartZeal, Audionet Heisenburg, Boulder will completely fix it!
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That’s what I love about this hobby….it’s about the synergy among components, the room, and your tastes. You don’t need a million dollars for it to sound great!
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Thanks for another interesting post ozzy :-)
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I will not speculate but: sitting here at my desk with my $500 used system which consists of Klipsch RP600Ms, homemade cables, TMS T-300MKll mini tube amp with some NOS tubes, and my trusty PC I could hear that mandolin as clear as day.
Just sayin'
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Yup. That is why I decided against buying that system. Glad you confirmed my decision!
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One would think that a "Big Time Wilson Dealer" would have training from Wilson regarding setup of their product line for demonstration.
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I had Wilsons and Transparent for close to 10 years, 10 good years. I also had a subwoofer. I auditioned large Wilsons with Peter McGraw and each time the feeling you get is that there is music in front of you, not speakers. Same feeling I got last Year at the Montreal audio show with large Raidhos + simaudio amps . Close to a million $.
My impression on your experience is that the subwoofer was overpowering the speakers. This is how you can get mellow or dark balance. Wilsons set up can bring a very realistic soundstage, but not change the sonic balance or flavor.
I have Transparent Ultra cables on one system and Luna Red on the Raidhos X3. No lack of high frequencies on either.
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First, they are box speakers,so you lose. Second, the room is more important than the system, so I have no idea what that was.
Try some Maggies with quality ARC gear and play that same tune.
SURPRISE!
Cheers!
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Thanks for all the comments thus far. I have never owned the Transparent cabling, but it’s hard to imagine that they are designed to limit the "air" (life) in the music.
I was also wonderin’ since the Wilson speakers have infinite adjustments in aiming the mid, tweeter units perhaps that was way off. But, again with the Wilson dealer and the rep’s available that is hard to believe they could screw it up so badly.
It would have been interesting though to have been able to hear the speakers with a different amp, or the amps with different speakers.
Something was clearly wrong.
I guess I can use this opportunity to tell my wife how much money my system has saved us...
ozzy
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I like old sayings. Here's one. "Money they don't know what to do with"
When I heard Sasha DAW. Kinda the same, distant and dull.
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Thanks for posting. It’s nice to know that you don’t have to spend mega bucks to get great sound.
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If you did not like the $1 million dollar system, perhaps the builder stinted on certain components and that $1.5 million should have been the budget. Who knows why a particular system does not float the boat of any particular listener? When you spend that kind of money, it is you who get to pick the sound and the pieces that will deliver the sound you want, so you can expect MUCH better results than someone else making these decisions.
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I've yet to hear any system with Transparent cables that had any soul.
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Dodgealum - fully agreed! I listened two different times over the weekend at the Capitol Audiofest last year to the big Von Schweickert / VAC system & came away baffled how it sounded nothing like live music! After. Just a few minutes, I had enough which for myself is the true test of a system -listener fatigue or want to keep on with any good music available. I heard several other systems there that cost less than maybe just two of the amps total that were much more enjoyable..
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Maybe someone from @paragonss weighin on OP experience, room acoustics and setup? They carry all the brands featured in the demo.
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In years of visiting dealers and going to shows very rare to hear system that really moved me. Even ten, twenty years ago, when my system at much lower level, I judged my system as preferable to vast majority of these setups. Setups at dealers, shows have so many inherent liabilities, may be room, lack of synergy between components, AC quality, high ambient noise levels is major impediment, loss of transparency, resolution here. Things like expectation bias, distraction of senses due to other stimuli may also impact impressions. Nothing like being alone in one's own dedicated listening room, with an entire system carefully assembled for max synergy. This is real comfort zone, relaxed state, easy to get away from analytical listening mode. For all these reasons and more I don't get excessively negative about less than satisfactory listening experiences of high end systems in these settings.
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Hey Ozzy,
I was there Thursday too. I spent most of my time in studio 2 listening to the Alexia V driven by ARC and dCS and I was impressed with the sound in that room. The dCS rep was playing a good mix of things to show off various elements of the Ring DAC in the Rossini player and also taking our requests. I really enjoyed the hour or so I spent in there. I didn’t get into studio 1 to hear the big Wilson’s, but for one song (a cover of Brothers in Arms). I have to say I was more impressed with the smaller setup in studio 2. Living close by though, I’m lucky to be able to hear this stuff pretty regularly. Which I’m thankful for. I’ve learned a lot about what I like and what I don’t like just by being lucky enough to have a couple fairly large dealers close by.
Best,
Neal
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I learned a long time ago that people with a lot of money are often not very smart at spending it. Very often folks with a lot of anything tend to waste it or not think very much about how to use it.
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So, I don’t want to mention the dealer, for I am very grateful for the opportunity to be able to hear these components. And they put on quite a nice event.
I’m still thinking that the system was set up exactly the way they wanted it to be. Perhaps the Wilson’s have too much hi-frequency energy and they tried to tone it down? I dunno, but it was quite dead sounding.
Also, I know presenters want to use music that shows off the equipment’s ability but music I am familiar with helps me evaluate the equipment.
ozzy
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I would assume Ozzy has a very musical system, So when he heard that 1 million dollar system, He knew right away the system is not musical. Without proper matching speakers , amps , preamps , sources, cabling? $1 million dollar won’t do it.Go to Axpona many expensive set up there, But many times I enjoy Andrew Jones set up , with his ELac speakers because AJ knows how to set up system.
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At Axpona this year , Quintessense audio were playing expensive Wilson so loud, They did not sound good at all. I don’t think they are using proper gear and cabling as well.
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If you have the money to spend let Mike Lavigne school you to his system ? And pay him as your consultant.Only if you are passionate audiophile.
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As someone whose worked in the audio world several times over my lifetime as a technician and even sales and even been the one demoing equipment at CES, etc. show hotel rooms, I can say it’s rarely a perfect representation of what the equipment can do. Sometimes it’s because the equipment is brand new and has been set up and burned in for 24-48hrs. before the show starts. So it’s no where near broken in. Sometimes all the equipment is sent to a dealer who sets it up in they’re building for a few days and has a chance to break it in but as most of us know it can take weeks of playing before a system comes into its own.
Also, as we know, the center listening position is the only position to be in. A bunch of other “bodies” in the room does change the perception of the presentation. Just like when I’ve run sound at concerts the amount of people in the room completely changes how I set the eq’s. The sound completely changes with more bodies, etc.
I guess I’m saying all this because you will almost never get a “perfect “ example of what a system is capable of at a demonstration although it should give you a decent idea.
I know with my panel speakers if I’m off on the set up by just a literal fraction it can completely change the dynamics, detail, tightness of bass. Being in the electronics world most of my life I never made the kind of money to own that expensive equipment though I’ve heard a lot over the years since the 80’s. Many of which I wasn’t impressed with at all and even some moderate medium systems I would love to own. I remember in the 80’s walking into Audio Research rooms with huge IRS speaker systems that were sooo bright and steely sounding that all I could think of is get me out of here! Even something simple like the wrong cables can destroy the dynamics or make a system sound too soft. Sometimes it’s just bad equipment!
I’ve always been more on a budget and have built or at least modified my equipment. So I’ve been able to “tailor” the sound of my equipment until I’ve achieved the sound I wanted. Of course every time I improve the acoustics of my room or get a new piece of equipment I sometimes end up tailoring (fine tuning) something else. “Everything matters” and changes the sound you hear.
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I would also suggest to all the people who are dissing million dollar systems to listen to Mike Lavigne’s system and see if they think theirs sounds better. I have never heard his system but I’m quite sure it is amazing!
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I was expecting a $1Million dollar system to blow me away! And very surprised that it didn’t even come close. I doubt if I will ever get a chance to hear Mike Lavigne’s system, but it looks to be very nice, probably is impressive.
Now that I think of it, I also asked the presenter to play "Taxman" from the new Beatles Revolver. When he played it, he turned the volume way down and only played it for a few seconds. Hmmn.
ozzy
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It’s the price tag people are dissing. Value of the dollar is depressing, don’t care who makes it IMO it’s not worth a million dollars !! Try going 10 years back, buy some of the best…. Could you even realistically spend a million on a simple very high end two channel system back then ? And would todays million dollar system trash it ? Not likely, technology hasn’t advanced anywhere‘s near that degree. Heck you could buy 2 Genesis 1 speaker systems complete with adequate amps and associated material and still come in way under $1 million. Wilson CronoSonic speakers.. stupid name to boot ! Wait 3 years get em 75% off Lol
Cheers
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When I attended Pacicifc Audio Fest 2022, two big 1 M$ systems Genesis and Gebel sounds fine while Accaphela sounds fall short of optimal.
I do not intend to denigrate Accaphela which still sound decent and dynamic.
The point is that it is not easy to optimize big system in room in short time.
Your dealer must fail to optimize big Wilson.
Thomas
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Sounds like the dealer may have set the system up the way they liked it, mellow. I heard systems like this at Axpona sound terrible one year, and then sound great the next year.
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I have two anecdotal experiences with uber-expensive systems.
One was at a dealer who had set up some Wilson Alexandria XLFs and didn't have to ask me twice whether I wanted to hear the system. Having heard some Sophias at a fraction of the cost at the same dealer I waited with nervous, even giddy, anticipation. Then the sound I heard was wholly disproportionate with what my eyes were telling me. I could best describe the sound as lean, hyperdetailed, lightweight with small images, remarkably similar to what I had heard with a Watt/Puppy system. Stunned, I kept looking around for an explanation of why I heard this type of sound but could find none; every piece was of stellar cost and reputation. When the dealer asked me what I thought I just couldn't voice my disappointment and mumbled some type of platitude on the system's performance.
I had the opposite experience at a stereo show when listening to a fantastic mbl system, the speakers being the ones with the double radiastrahler units. I have never heard a system that sounded so close to that of a real musical event, as if the band were in the room. Even some knucklehead asking for his Michael Jackson record to be played didn't deter me from deciding that if this system were rated as an A, every other system I had heard during my life was perhaps a C+ or below. The dynamics were incredibly stunning as were spaciousness and detail as well as immediacy and tonal color.
So perhaps the differences in the two systems were largely due to setup and system synergy.
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Eventually (reluctantly) the demonstrator played a few tunes that I requested.
The old problem: you wanted to listen to music, he wanted you to listen to the system.
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I’m glad I stopped at $950,000. From there, it’s a game of diminishing returns.
Please tell me that this is intended to be ironic, or I might have to slit my wrists.
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As a college student I got to hear a million dollar rig. It was integrated in the room, that was destined for an organist to house his instrument. The pipes were replaced by a stack of quads. The woofers built into the floor, powered by all mono levinson amps. There was a pro tape machine that had recordings of the Chicago symphony made for this guy. So naturally I wanted to play James brown sex machine to hear JB in all his glory. Not so great. The symphony sounded good though.
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So the source is a $2 piece of vinyl. I'm always amazed at what people are willing to burn money on...but...their money.
I will guarantee you that I get as much enjoyment or more out of my system and still have lifelong funds available for other things I enjoy doing in life outside of sitting on a chair listening to a $2 piece of plastic...🤫
Pura Vida...
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I do wonder if the $1M system was just so great that it made average recorded music sound substandard or anemic.
Although if it can't play the music I love, it's a no-go for me.
ozzy
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If I had $1,000,000, I'd buy $100,000 audio system and buy $700,000 house in suburban area (hoping a lot of privacy, especially for music listening with quite loud volume), and with $200,000, modify the house to make a great audio room.
Looks like most audiophiles have a tendency to ignore the very importance of listening environment. The audio room (or hall, studio, etc.) is more important than the audio equipment.
I still remember, when the Carnegie Hall was remodeled, some audio critics were very disappointed. It was because the interior of the Carnegie Hall was poorer than before. The listening room is so much important.
I rearranged my speakers (Vienna, Mahler) so the speakers have more space behind them. After that, the sound became more life-like!
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My own system with everything is maybe close to $100,000 retail. So, I figured a $1M system should sound alot better. Not 10 times better but considerably better than mine.
I guess for now I will appreciate what I have.
ozzy
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Clearthinker Ozzys system is posted , just click his name Ozzy.
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I went to a show about 6 years ago. It had almost all of the same gear. Dan D' Agostino mono amps. DCS DAC, Wilson Alexia 2's. I had the exact opposite opinion. Well not opposite but I was so overwhelmed that I kept weeping when I would go in that room to listen. I had never heard anything like it. And still haven't really. It was the most emotionally engaging sound I had ever heard. I mean I was with my wife. I was trying to hide it but it was impossible. I was literally weeping like a baby. It was set up absolutely perfect. So I would say combo of room and setup.
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SCAENA LOUDSPEAKERS ~ SUNNY & ALAN!!!
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Also Ozzy I would say your system and room are more carefully set up. In fact I could guarantee it. Your system in that room should sound fairly close to that. I like your system and room. What amp stands are those? Is that like 3" thick granite?
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rhale64.
Thank you for the comments. The amp stands are actually (DIY) made from 4" thick maple. I have 2" threaded Audiopoint’s underneath. On the amp stand under the amps I am using Critical Mass footers.
All of this actually sounded much better than the Grand Prix amps stands still pictured on my audio system.
ozzy
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@ozzy I'm a little surprised that you think a million dollar system should be significantly better than a $100k system. I suspect that the higher priced system would play louder (maybe even softer), have deeper bass and possibly have some refinement over the lower cost system, but it wouldn't be a night and day difference. What I'm saying is that for $100k someone should be able to put together an outstanding sounding system. As always, I could be wrong. I'm sure someone could pick a specific music track that would sound dramatically different on the systems.
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One would hope for bigger and louder at a minimum, to the extent that would even matter in most rooms at home.
In a private listening room the size of an auditorium, more of a challenge.
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If I spend one million dollars on a hifi it better be at least one hundred times better than what I got. Good luck with that! I probably need to invest almost as much in a suitable room first.
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To mapman:
You have mentioned exactly what I mean.
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Honestly guys. What a lot of BS. Let’s assume you work hard for a lifetime assembling your perfect sounding system. Decade by decade converging on better and better sound. That from the time you were 20 to say 70… slowly converged on the best sounding system you could. And at that time you looked at your investment and saw it was $50K or $100K, or $1M, wouldn’t it be incredibly satisfying? A passion, incrementally achieved over a lifetime.
What is all the bashing about? Ego?
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@ghdprentice I always say to each their own. If that happens to be dropping a million dollars on a hifi then that’s something most would never even think about. But if it’s possible surely some will.
I grew up in Amish country which probably accounts for a fair amount of my relatively plain and simple aspirations. My family teases me about it. To each their own. If my hifi could sound 100x better than now I might be tempted. To h-ll with plain and simple!
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I always look forward to the big VAC room at CAF. It sounded very good this year, a bit downsized from last time. But have not given it a second thought until now.
The Atmasphere/ Classic Audio room was something I could live with and pretty sure that did not crack 6 figures, maybe not even half with the $5500 class D amps all nice and compact and hanging in there with the big boys.
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I used to go to Hifi show in Montreal where equipment is placed in hotel rooms. Just for fun I was trying to go from one room to another without paying attention to manufacturer/price just figuring out what sound my ears like more. In the end the winner was quite cheap Exposure/Spendor system but there was other stuff there wwway more expensive. This suggests that each person would prefer something where specific to their music tastes.
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This sounds like what happens when I order really expensive wine. My expectation is so high that I'm almost always disappointed.
I'm reflexively suspicious of these really giant round number price tags. So often these prices are for show off buyers like a newly minted rap star or the like.
For my personal tastes an ARC Ref 5, Ref 300 Ms, and a set of Maggies with a respectable sub is about all my ear can discern and that set up is under 25K. I'd spend the $970K I "saved" on a '74 365BB (350K) and the rest would go into equity a nice medical building with a plastic surgeon as a tenant- rents used to support my audio addiction. :)
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