Separates or Integrated? What makes more sense?

I have always preferred separates. My dream since a kid and fortunate enough to have a Jeff Rowland Criterion preamp and Sanders MagTech amps. To me, I have one of the ebst pre amps and amps available and I do not believe one manufacture who makes an incredible preamp also makes amps for me and my speakers (I have Sandres 10e stats). You give up convenience and you need an extra set of cables (I run Tara Labs The One so if cost a few grand a pair) but what you gain is better channel separation, isolation and, to me, the ability to get the best compatability you possibly can.  At a $10k budget, if you can get one of those uber new intergraded for 10k, that would be the way to go and move up to separates.

The technology may well be there to keep the noise floor down with an integrated and don’t think one can assume a superior sound with separates.Thinking here that a separate power supply for the integrated would certainly have advantages. I will say though, lowering the noise floor had been a big deal in my system. Would think the industry people know to a pretty fine degree how much the noise floor is compromised in an integrated and would understand their reticence in addressing this on a public forum.

The Firebottle Club! The Had HO is an astonishing and seemingly underrated thing, possibly due to the relative lack of availability including him not actually making this amp recently. What's his Ebay output...a couple of dozen a year? The only amps at this point I'd try for more power would be the Had built QMB-25 monos from Moon, which along with his headphone amps could explain why he does so few of the other stuff like the HO and various single ended items and preamps.

I’m for separates. $10k isn’t necessary. Dennis Had Firebottle HO KT88. Dennis Had 6SN7 pre.  You’ve saved $7k. Thank me later. 

@dentdog ,
What if the integrated amp had a separate, dual power supply??

I have read the entire thread and agree with most all of the posts. I typically choose separates, but my best audio buddy goes with integrateds. I do own a couple of integrated amplifiers as well.

I accompanied my wife on a business trip last week and was able to visit a high-end store in Falls Church, Virginia. I heard the $5000 Prima Luna integrated and was very impressed! It was driving a small pair of Eggleston Works floor standers which were also impressive. They also had the Luxman integrated amplifiers. First time I had seen Luxman in a store in many years. I was thrilled with the looks, build quality, fit and finish, and most importantly the sound! Both the newest versions of L509 (L-509 X) and 590 (L-590 AXII) are on my shortlist. The Luxman turntables were also very nice.

That being said, My buddy just picked up a used NAD 375BEE for under $500. I actually got it for him and delivered it to his home. We listened to it on his Focal 30th anniversary Chorus 826W ($3500 when new) speakers. I was shocked and amazed at how good it was, and how close it was to the experience I had in Virginia with the far more expensive amplifiers. Compared to his Marantz 8004 integrated, the NAD was transformative. I had always thought that the Marantz was a solid amplifier, but there was no comparison. The NAD blew it away in every area, at least with the Focal speakers and  in his room.

dentdog is correct. Isolating a preamp from a power amp in the form of separates will pay much greater dividends than any cable or power cord improvements. In fact to suggest otherwise, I think, shows a pretty glaring lack of knowledge regarding significant fundamentals. 

I know of no integrated amps that compare with separates made by the same company. Look to Gryphon or Vitus as examples.

Not to say there aren't some really nice integrated amps out there but in my present system my power supplies for the preamp and phono pre are separate. The makers of these probably wouldn't go to this trouble if it weren't a step up. I mean I guess they could take this approach for panache but they probably are more concerned with performance.
When you locate the power supplies in the amp box with preamp, and power amp and in some cases phono pre it would seem to present a problem with noise, something my system with high efficiency speakers is particularly sensitive to. So separates it is for me. The longer I'm in the hobby the more aware I am as to the importance of the power supplies. For the more knowledgeable designers of equipment on this forum, it would be nice to hear your honest appraisal of the significance and differences involved in isolation of the power supplies, benefits and drawbacks.

At $10K I would go integrated.  There are some integrateds that are as good if not better than their separates counterparts (like Luxman 509x vs c700 combo).  Huge bang for the buck.  I spent quite a while trying to find a good amp/pre combo and the ones I liked the most were well over that budget, but that’s me.

You also save in cables, not to mention spending a lot of time and money playing with pre to amp cable synergies.  Though that is part of the audiophile adventure.

Even on the very high end, I have heard some absolutely amazing integrateds, like Gryphon and Vitus, that at times can match, if not beat, separates.  

For 10K, I think I would have to seriously consider separate’s. Hope to get lucky and find some used or demo Luxman gear. 

No right answer other than you must go listen to the components. Period. End of story.
Today I listened to Primaluna Evo 400 integrated. Very nice. Then I listened to the Evo 400 Preamp with the Evo 400 Amp, major difference in soundstage, black background and tonality.
I've heard the Ayon Triton III integrated and it sounds every bit as good as the Primaluna separates. To me.
By the way, there's no mandate to spend anywhere near $3k on an interconnect(s).

Goodluck and most of all, have fun

10aK ?

 I would go separates!

 Integrated is just fine,
 only reason I went with separates is “statues”

 monos blocks, preamp, CD player is a high class statement is all.     I’ve always been poor, cruddy pay, poor job!

 Once I started making money, I went with separates!
  No other reason than it’s what the upper class does/has.  
 I may be a “keep up w the Jones’s” is guy.  
  BUT,......ONCE I WENT SEPERATES,  NEVER LOOKED BACK, THE SOUND, SEPERATION BETWEEN CHANNELS, ETC ETC, SOLD ME.

 IF UNCAN AFFORD SEPERATES, GO ALL IN!

MI WONT GO BACK, MONOBLOCKS, GOOD PREAMP, SPEAKERS, ....GOOD SOURCE, ALL MAKES IT WORTH WHILE.

I prefer separates for flexibility. I believe consumers should be able to choose source components to their liking. I prefer separate phono, separate DAC, separate tuner. But even if I were to go integrated, I would avoid one with a digital component in it. For me, a DAC should always be separate. Advances in digital audio come so fast, in no time a DAC becomes obsolete. I don’t want to live with the thought that I have an expensive gear with a now obsolete component. It would significantly affect resale value too. (With that, I don’t like the idea of, just for an example, PS Audio’s new Stellar Strata.)

hiphiphan - I sold my house and the buyers demanded my whole two channel system as a condition of the sale.  It is an extremely long story as to why I did not buy Raven again,  Let's just say I was stupid and got talked into buying Mola Mola Kaluga and Makua Class D amps sight unheard.  Given I had to start over with a whole new two channel system I purchased the amps before the speakers - another mistake.  I am building a new house and never used the Mola Mola Amps.  Once I decided on Viking Acoustic Grande Voix Horn speakers, I needed to sell the Mola Mola Amps.  I tried and tried on US Audio Mart and Audiogon and could not sell.  I ended up trading them into a dealer for Canary Audio Grand Reference Two Mono Amps and the C1800 Pre-Amp.  They are being built as I speak.  Trust me, I wish I never purchased the Mola Mola because I would have purchased the Raven Spirit 300B mono amps.  

Me personally,I prefer separates. I frequently like to switch amps,or preamps. With an integrated,I wouldn’t be able to get a different flavor without having to purchase another integrated.  The ability to switch things up,scratches that itch. 

I have favored integrated amps for 15 years, and I love Krell. Just got the new K300i into my main system for $7000. It sounds fabulous!! Pushes my Maggie 1.7i with power to spare. I did not buy Krell’s Digital Board however. I am streaming thru my new LUMIN T2. I prefer these functions in separate equipment. Soundstage and bass are amazing. Vocal clarity and separation are on another level. 

Just make sure the integrated has a real preamp section, not just a volume control. Have owned a bunch, but the only integrated I will own in the future is a Viva Solista- as it’s a piece of art. 

Ive since moved to a Music First TVC with amp combo which I feel beats most integrateds for similar money. 

"Quoth the Raven Nevermore"

There is no Balm of Gilead in this hobby.

I was looking over recommended Integrated on TAS and Stereophile in the 10k range:  The Pass Int-60, Moon 600i v2, Bat Vk 3000se, Octave Audio v 80 SE, and a few others.  Any one of these in the category stand out?  I do like vinyl and tubey sound.  

willgolf, then why did you get rid of it?

@willgolf what did you move onto after the Raven?

I can speak to the Raven Reflection MK2 integrated amp as I owned one for 3 years.  Is it better than Luxman or Pass or Separates?  One can only debate and 10 people would have 10 different answers.  It also depends on the speakers, cabling, DAC etc.

The Reflection sound combined with my Sonus Faber Amati  Homage Tradition speakers was just outstanding.  Clear, concise, very open, excellent bass, quiet to start.  I had KT 150 power tubes so I amped up the WPC.  I like to listen at low levels and be able to hear the twang of a guitar or cymbal.  I also like to occasionally play at 50% max power.  My house shook.  

Dave Thomson is the owner and he has some of the best tubes in the world.  He has been collecting tubes for years.  As a result, it is easy to tube swap.  His customer service is outstanding.  

Lastly, it really is a show piece.  If I was going to go with an integrated, I would definitely buy a Raven again.  

An addendum to what I said above:  what is your strategy here?  Mine was to simplify and reduce the clutter, the number of boxes, etc., without compromising the joy I get from playing music in my home.  I have zero regrets going to integrated with two of my systems (a Luxman top integrated, SS, and a Lyric integrated, KT150-based).  I LOVE the sounds from each system.  BUT, I am not one to sit and study, focus, squint, try to hear small differences; instead I am one to revel in the music, and have found that moving/adjusting speakers has a huge influence/effect, vs any effect from a different front-end.  But, that's just me.  

really that's a speaker efficiency and room size question more then which is better.

 I agree that if you need power for in-efficient speakers the separates are the way to go. 

 If you have high efficiency speakers then I feel its less important and a good low power tube or class A integrated can sound as good or at times better then the separates.  

I've run into the too much gain problem with high efficiency speakers and see Nelson Pass's concern in no usable volume range. so matching amp-speakers is a huge part of the process to good sound. 

matching your preamp to an amp is also important to consider, gain, input-output impedances, etc. this area may be overlooked, the integrated can win easily if the pre-power amp is not matched right correctly. 

glen

I would also vote for separates for many of the reasons mentioned above. And yes you will need an extra set of interconnects but isn't that half the fun?! As a recently recovered cable addict I assure you it is fun! Also if you start out SS and want to try tubes or vice versa you can change gradually. I can almost assure you that at some point down the road you will get antsy to change something. Good luck!

Hello, my issue is if tech changes you are back to square one. Second, you are sharing one power supply with both in an integrated amp. More power is better. Third, you may get things you do not need but still pay for: phono preamp, DAC, and tuner. one Note, separates require an interconnect between the amp and the preamp which might add to the cost. Another option is Hegel H90. Some one will sell you one for $10,000. It has an incredible DAC and 380 W per channel. 

A two month old (its birthday is written on the bottom plate) Dennis Had Inspire "Firebottle HO" single ended hand wired tube masterpiece, about 1200 bucks. New (original series) Schiit Freya, 700 bucks. Inexpensive Morrow cables...it’s like this stuff was almost free...cost of piles of tubes for ongoing sonic experimenting? Uh...never mind...

preamp should be matched with the source (to get the desired tone) and power amp with the speakers so for me i would say separates. i believe most people would reccomend tubes in the preamp and then solid state for the power amp. i would look for transparent, good dynamics i.e the power output should double down as the impedance drops from 8 to 4 to 2ohm and would also look to avoid negative feedback.

Separates allow you a lot more flexibility and greater resolution. They allow you to improve your setup incrementally, which is great on the budget!


In the resolution department as an example, you can keep your speaker cables short by placing the amplifiers right by the speakers. It was this very issue that caused me to look into balanced operation back in the 1980s; at the time it was impractical to place my equipment stand between the speakers so I was running fairly long speaker cables. When I got the balanced line preamp running and then ran short speaker cables, the increase in resolution was dramatic! Since then I have seen and demonstrated this many times.


Integrated amps can be very nice but in a nutshell represent a compromise.

When I was young, separated were the way to go. Two things have changed. First, engineers have learned to build power and pre in the same box. Second the transformers and chassis have become much more expensive relative to the electronics. Listen to an Ayre AX5 and try to find separates that match the sound quality!

As for sound differences, I suppose one question I'd have is this: In what circumstance could you do an blind A/B comparison with similarly high-quality equipment (i.e., the same manufacturer who offers both similarly priced separates and IA) in order to tell the differences? Otherwise, the comparisons would be hard for me to make due to all kinds of other factors (power, synergy with other components, etc.). Others may have keener senses or memory powers than I, but I find it very hard to assert either differences in overall quality or what is responsible for those differences, when heard. So many variables are changing.

I am currently considering this question, and many things I hear sound equally "good" but different, when they are above a certain quality level. Then, I return to other considerations — do I want to change out a separate later on, for fun? How will these work with my space? If I wanted to set up in another room, would both be equally moveable? What if I want to change speakers — would there be some advantage with IA or separates, there?

Seems like there has been a lot of work on new integrated amps and they are now much better than 10 or 20 years ago. One I heard at an audio show that was really good was Absolare.

I have mainly seen plus sides of separates described in this thread and just want to say that the plus of integrated (except less space) is that it is fewer chassis and sometimes fewer parts (and cables) and can therefore, theoretically, be cheaper for the same sound quality.

tyan42
Separates or Integrated? What makes more sense?

Separates because these days, systems have heaps of gain, and may have too much, and you could be better off sonicly using a passive preamp.
With an integrated you've got no options, unless the integrated has inputs on the back (power-amp in) to bypass the preamp stage, not many have this option. 

Remember what Nelson Pass said here.

Nelson Pass,

"We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more.

Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up.

Routinely DIYers opt to make themselves a “passive preamp” - just an input selector and a volume control.

What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection.

And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp."

Cheers George

I used to use tube pre + power separates for long time and always look down to Integrated. Till 1 day, a dealer sent me the Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated to try. I was blown away and I bought it. With Diablo 300 powering Kharma S7S really bring good music. Tighter, lower bass. Fast transient, bigger staging..Never expect an integrated could do that...

I can say, integrated amps are now much more advance and better than 20 years ago. Anyone should give it a try/chance

Too many compromises with integrated amps. I’ve had a few really good integrated amps and when I compared the sq of their integrated to the same manufacturer’s separates, the integrated amp fell short.
I had a nice Hegel H300 integrated that worked nicely with my Usher mini dancer II speakers. When I upgraded to the larger usher’s, I needed more power so the integrated was useless. I sold it and got separates, the new amp is the same wattage as the Hegel but has more power to control the larger speakers. If I decide to get different speakers in the future that demand yet more power, I would just replace the amp and keep my preamp

Yes it depends on who builds it.  I have a completely rebuilt from the ground up Heathkit integrated.  It was built by Sam Kim and with the right speakers it's magic.  It also has a great MC phono section.

Tough choice. Separates do add more to go "wrong" in a system. Cables etc. Plus routing etc. There is something to be said for a solid integrated. As others have said, it really would boil down to preference and space requirements. Personally, it would most likely be integrated for me (is currently) but at that price point probably a two channel amp and fully featured Pre. I do have space issues, so it is what it is. 

Millercarbon, what is it about the Raven Reflection MkII integrated amp you like so well above others in it's price range? It is sharp looking and made in America, but what else in terms of audio performance strikes your fancy? 

Mike

It may be that the challenge with IA’s is finding one with a preamplification section as good as what can be had in a proportionally priced line stage. I’m told it is often the preamp in the IA that is the weak link and degrades the sound enough that what gains you get by losing a set of ICs is not recouped. I’ve heard this a number of times in conversations with designers/manufactures who I respect but of course who would probably rather sell their separates than IA’s in their lineup!

under 10k, get integrated, close or above 10k, get power amp, and then preamp later, or both at same time if you can afford.

Primaluna’s latest offering is surprisingly good for integrated in the $4k to $5k range. There is no magic in spending $10k versus some other sum...

Quick example: friend has massive system, in the $250k to $300k range (think Focal Grand Utopia). I’ve spent about 20x less. Is his system better. Absolutely. We both agree when comparatively listening. Is it 20x better? We both agree not. 

Some great pairings happen when carefully listening and choosing components that go well together, regardless of price tag. 

Buy an accuphase integrated. The best integrated I’ve heard. IMO better than pass or Luxman. 

After 40 years of this and that, using amp friendly impedance curves AND efficient loudspeakers, eliminating a set or two of wires between components, integrated makes complete sense. Now you have a choice between long lasting tubes and outrageous SS. Best of both worlds might be LTA? Depends on what you are driving and the driving conditions. 


 

I like to have the preamp near the listening position (for accessibility) and the amp near the speakers (for short speaker cables). That also means only a small amp stand between the speakers, not something large that potentially messes with the imaging. So separates for me.

Really agree with the interconnect and power lead dilemma with separates. Bottom line is if you like the sound of either separate(+connections) or integrated that's all that matters.No real right or wrong.

The most useless word in high end audio is “always”.
There are cheaply made separates and cheaply made integrateds. Depending on your budget, space and system synergy there are great options for either choice ~ if you do your homework and listen carefully.

Years ago stereo receivers were popular but high end fans panned them because these single boxes were cramming the tuner, amp, pre amp, connects and power supply in one case. The higher end market produced separate boxes for amps, preamps and power supplies with better components and shielding from noise, etc, for those who wanted the ultimate flexibility. 

Building a system with a rack full of separate components can be the fun part for some fans. Some folks love this “its the center of this hobby” aspect while others just want great music with as little fuss as possible. No right or wrong here.

But stating that sound quality is missing with separates is just total nonsense...

who says that you have to spend the whole $10k ?