Qualities Of An End-game System

Thus sayeth the mighty OP. Beware to those who dare to play the End Game.

Qualities of an end game system:

- Speakers disappear

- The room disappears

- The listener disappears, his mind is shut down/gone.

- There is nothing left but the perception of falling into an abyss filled with music.

- The listener doesn’t know where any of the music came from, but, it is all inside of him. Sex, drugs, etc can’t come even remotely close to such an experience of pure audio nirvana.

If your system can’t do that (whatever it may be), you have no end game.

... And what do you do once you’ve reached this point? Where do you go from here?

For some, the hobby is in enjoying the trip, not in reaching the final destination.

You answered your own question.  You don't need this bunch to obfuscate, confuse your judgment!   You done did good.

@hilde45 

New experiences changed my feelings. They alerted me to richer experiences I could strive for. 

I suppose the statement is still true, but I made the mistake of thinking I felt something capable of ending my search and I was wrong.

The above might be said describing many types  of "journeys" -- not just audio.

A lot of us, it is the journey, not the final destination 

@mrdecibel 

Thanks for the reminder. One kick-ass song.

Bank accounts drained? Hopefully not too much in debt?

Yes, that is a definite game ender.

Bank accounts drained? Hopefully not too much in debt?

That can easily be the end game for many if you let that little audiophile demon talking to you on your shoulder have his way.

I concur  with the OP😊 +2

Audio nirvana stands on its own for me, unmatched. The emotions, minds of all kinds of different artists...the melodies, etc all pour into my room and we just dissolve together in an ecstatic fashion.

But....I’m still stuck trying to define What might our OP might consider in

Sex, drugs, etc can’t come even remotely close to such an experience of pure audio nirvana.

Lets’ see: We could agree that one doesn’t last as long (unless ’unusually inspired’ or indulging in the second) which can outlast the third in some ways..

What stops my prop is:

What does ’’etc." Really Entail....? Hmm... @deep_333 ?

I’m all eyes... *L* ;)

There are other "etcs" besides sex and drugs.

Sex - Once you have enough of it, it is not all that much of a thrill even when it is the most attractive partner. Maybe, guys who haven’t gotten laid all that much exalt it a bit too much.

Drugs, liqor - For many a habitual user out there, it is no longer some god sent euphoria. It is just managing to get the bare fix for the day..

The other "etcs" could vary from person to person, of course.

I wonder if folks have become too insensitized to just everything... For example, i could be riding my motorcycle on rural roads enveloped with the wind i could feel really good. I could fast for a day, visit my fav thai restaurant and i could feel really really good. I could practice certain forms of meditation for a certain period and it could produce varying forms of ecstasy.

Audio nirvana stands on its own for me, unmatched. The emotions, minds of all kinds of different artists...the melodies, etc all pour into my room and we just dissolve together in an ecstatic fashion.

On another thread I spoke about Welcome To the Pleasuredome, which is 40 years young this year. Listening to this, cranked, hearing Mark O'Toole's bass line in all of it's glory, and the rest of the band's instrumentals, vocals, and sounds, has me enjoying a system that " never stops ". When I hear the musicians do their thing, and I am " involved " with the listening experience, well, that's all folks. Enjoy ! MrD.

I’m tired of chasing

That sort of brougt to mind something Steve Earle was quoted as saying, something to the effect of,  "Cocaine is like golf, it's white, you hit it, and then you chase it all day."

However, better sound isn't white and you can chase it for way more than a day.  It can cost a lot of money though.

@ghdprentice you speak truth my friend. I’m tired of chasing and I’m happy.  I understand just like the saying in the old mob movies.  EVERYTIME I TRY TO GET OUT THEY KEEP PULLING ME BACK IN! 

For many myself included, it is not the qualities, but the lack of quantity in the cash department that will dictate what is our endgame system.

I'd go along with that.  I'd like some different/better speakers.  And I guess I'd also like to try the SET route. But I may be done.  Until I am not done.

@ericgale sometimes. You have to just listen and enjoy.  My main system is done. I’m just searching for more music at this point. 

For many myself included, it is not the qualities, but the lack of quantity in the cash department that will dictate what is our endgame system. Oh I could spend more and do have cash resources I could tap into, however I am not willing to. More golf to be played and hunting and fishing trips to be made. 

@immatthewj im there and happy. I could listen to this as my last. 

@calvinj  , with certain discs (in my system mostly SACDs) I can get that.  But I am assuming from most of the content of this thread that the OP considers "end game" to be beyond that.

@immatthewj music can get so good it will float in the air.  Lol.  For some of us music does get us high!    Time to tap that EAR VEIN! lol 

How about this. End game is a label some folks use as an attempt to put an end to (cap) on upgraditis. The false belief that there is a point when one will finally not be inclined to upgrade.

This 👆

What does ''etc." Really Entail....?

Scintillating interaction on A'gon?

When your system causes you to lose interest in changing anything with it ever again, it's end game.  You'll never know. But others may know after you die, if they bother to think about it. 

.....and I certainly agree. *VBS*👍+10 to the tenth...

But....I'm still stuck trying to define What might our OP might consider in 

Sex, drugs, etc can't come even remotely close to such an experience of pure audio nirvana.

Lets' see:  We could agree that one doesn't last as long (unless 'unusually inspired' or indulging in the second) which can outlast the third in some ways..

What stops my prop is:

What does ''etc." Really Entail....? Hmm... @deep_333  ?

I'm all eyes... *L* ;)

How about this. End game is a label some folks use as an attempt to put an end to (cap) on upgraditis. The false belief that there is a point when one will finally not be inclined to upgrade.

The fact that there is no end game possible in gear design improvement and no end game either in acoustics and psychoacoustics related improvement a priori, is a common place fact and evidently true...

There is an end game possible for a pre-established limited budget choices and there is an end game with a specific system once chosen for his synergy and a specific room once chosen and an end game here means a balanced ratio or an optimal balanced set of parameters of all acoustics factors resulting from gear and room and specific ears canals and HTRF measures...

Then there exist for us mortals with a chosen system an end game which makes us happy with no frustration even at a relatively low cost...

This does not means that i am an ignorant thinking nothing beat my actual sound experience...

Acoustics with an "s" rule audiophile experience not upgrade races nor price tags ...

An "end game" is only an expression meaning for me that i am more in the search of new music than for a new piece of gear...

Changing now  ONLY one piece of gear is even if it is possible  no more so attractive because of my acquired  minimal satisfying acoustics balance ..The real upgrade i needed if i want; i need 15,000 bucks ( compared to 1000 bucks for my actual system )  and a new room i did not have in my small house...😊

Anyway i am in sound ectasy now and i know why because it is me who created it not the gear i picked , i created it by my own  speakers and headphone modifications , homemade tweaks and acoustics knowledge ...My two main components speakers and headphone are modified according to acoustics basics ...

Then yes i can upgrade going from 1000 bucks to 15,000 but even if it will be way better i can live happy with what i have which is not a stopgap at all in my room conditions and nearfield listenings...

There exist an endgame which is not a frustrated state created by basic knowledge😊

i upgrade my list of musicians with 50 albums of Tete Montoliu which i added to my 100 Bill Evans albums and to my 100 Keith Jarrett  ... The best money audiophile investment for me now ....😉

i say all that for beginners ... They must learn by studying and experimenting  more than by mere buying ...

How about this. End game is a label some folks use as an attempt to put an end to (cap) on upgraditis. The false belief that there is a point when one will finally not be inclined to upgrade.

“End game is when you no longer feel the need to upgrade.”

I felt that way and then I heard a much better and more musical system and room than mine. It showed me that there was more to hear, more work to do.

New experiences changed my feelings. They alerted me to richer experiences I could strive for. 

I suppose the statement is still true, but I made the mistake of thinking I felt something capable of ending my search and I was wrong.

Even more important than the equipment or room acoustics is the mind and the mental and emotional state when listening to music.

You are so right! 😊

It is why i will never trusted reviewers whose favorite music is mainly limited in one genre...

The way our brain process sounds is learned all life and must be educated...

Then the mental state of a brain facing music of any kind is the best  source for the evaluation possible of the balance between acoustics factors...

Each culture on earth is rich with his own harmonics sets, melodic sets and rythm sets, linked to distinctive often unknown musical instruments and hearing all of them make our brain a great timbre analyser which makes us then able to evaluate any system/room better than limited listeners sensible to PraT more than anything else because they dont need to evaluate reverberation role for example in Rudra Veena decay or Bach organ bass note in a church acoustics...

Each instrument aimed us at one of our body parts also and not only suggest to our brain a specific acoustic signature as recent scientific article demonstrated in an acoustics science revolution :

https://phys.org/news/2024-02-pythagoras-wrong-universal-musical-harmonies.html

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2308859121

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337721064_Sound_Sources_The_Origin_of_Auditory_Sensations

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-45812-z

https://medium.com/@tar.setar.market/comparing-western-music-and-persian-music-a-comprehensive-analysis-99ba059fb3fd

The need to reproduce the musical venue is one function of a system. I like to call it the "Disney World" function, because it produces the kind of illusions which trick and delight children of all ages.

I dont judge a system in his way first and last to reproduce multi tracks electronica... Because if a system is able to do right non amplified instruments timbre or a Bruckner symphony it will do the rest right. The reverse is not necessarily true.. human brain are not attuned by electronica but by natural and commonly heard instruments timbre and speech and singing ... Limited musical tastes are not Acoustics understandings nor expertise in system/room evaluation nor musical evaluation ... ...

The way our ears/brain recreated sound spatial timbre hues and localisations was the results not of Hollywood but of our species evolution for survival socially (speech intonation subtle information ) or hunting and localization of threats and preys...

Then listener envelopment concept and experience in a room abbreviated by LV in acoustics articles and in relation with the sound source width abbreviated ASW for example is not an "hollywood illusions" but a rigorously definable set of acoustics parameters we must learn to control to experience a satisfying musical performance with a system/room ...

In the same way all spatial attributes of sounds are not "Hollywood Illusions" but objective acousticvs concepts we can retrieve from any stereo system modulo HTRF measures , inner ears measures, Room acoustics, and a set of filters Dr. Edgar Choueiri designed for this task because of the defect linked to the dual sound source with any stereo system which imply a loss of spatial informations from the original recordings album. Calling that "illusions", gained or lost, is, if not acoustics ignorance, not the right word to describe real acoustics factors...😊

Then yes we must accept that others people had their own tastes which had the right to "bloom" for sure , i dont criticize people musical choices here ; but acoustics, music evaluations and judgment are not innate tastes or limited tastes, they must be learned all our life especially when exposed to all cultures , all musical languages, all instruments of the world expressiveness and timbre ...I will not trust acoustics opinions about a system someone who use only one genre as his main reference at all ...

Even more important than the equipment or room acoustics is the mind and the mental and emotional state when listening to music.

“End game is when you no longer feel the need to upgrade.”

+1. With a dozen words you managed to drill to the very core. Congrats!

End game is when you no longer feel the need to upgrade.  

@wolf_garcia

There is no "end game" required in anything connected to music enjoyment or any art form except in your head.

+1

End game system makes me think of a “forever house”. It makes no sense to me. I’m not in a hurry to get to the end either.

@ally'all    *L*  When the $s' are gone (....and the .5B$ is so hard to comply with...)

*tsk*   ....most often, the relatives don't know unless you leave notes... ;)

Personal EG is always in flux...happy 'til I'm not. *S*

Diy'ng sshriekerss and playing about with the space between them is amusing enough for the while, awhile...;) 😎

@hilde45 

Some of us like to tinker and hear differences. It is not only about the music.

Absolutely....one is never done.  Remember to dust....

@waytoomuchstuff 

Re ur EGS:

....my 'ish' is the EGsubroutine

SPACE....has never been, or is in randum flux for my entire existent.

But it's good to deal with one place at a time, teaches how to 'do the improbable with minimal' ; i.e. nothingx0, keeping your latent infernal inferior interior designer under fist hand...

😏

@mahgister ....hi, and if you're able to walkabout within your own portable nirvana....no one has the absolute authority to wish it otherwise....

If music in some quark-ish fashion is entwined into the fabrics of our lives....

Play On....until you can't. ;)

+10wkend, y'all...

This hobby is filled with hyperbolic descriptions.

End Game = when the money is gone.

One man's "end game" is another man's starting point.

The last time I shut my mind down was when the dentist filled me full of diazepam. Personally, I prefer to be conscious when I'm listening to music.

End game is theoretically mythical-nothing is perfect-but practically when you reach the point where your system is satisfying and enjoyable and you have spent the all the resources you are willing to spend to make further improvements. I'm reasonably close-still a couple of improvements I intend to make to my system- but I know it doesn't mean my system is approaching the ideal. It just means that in a hobby where you generally get what you pay for and more better usually means more money I have just about reached a balance of satisfactory performance and what I'm willing to spend. Not a bad place.

My wife has been trying to make my speakers disappear for the last 10 years. 

Attaining the attributes of the end game system as described is easy just buy a pocket radio with ear buds and some LSD.

"End Game" seems like a variable term defined by expectations. reaching expectations is the end. so my ’end game’ would be different than yours.

There is a catch there...Expectations may be dependent on what a listener may have had prior exposure to, what he even knew is possible (or exposure to something that gave him a feel for what is possible). If he didn’t have any concept of what is possible, he wouldn’t know any better.

The perception of disappearing speakers is fairly easy for someone who’s been around (knows some stuff). Making the room disappear takes more work, investigations into room acoustics, planning and investment, as you may know.

Making the listener himself disappear/shutting his mind’s nonsense down.....making the actor recede so only the act remains requires something serious. Throwing cash at anything/spending cash in the wrong places doesn’t get one there.

My end game definition is when I close my eyes , I am no longer listening to a stereo system. But Iam right there on the actual venue of the concert hall.I no longer thinking of buying anymore gear or cables.Much like looking forward to buy more music.

For non-audiophiles an end game system is what they now have until it quits working. For audiophiles, an end game system is mostly elusive. We always need a little more or something else. satisfaction is fleeting for many, if not, most

End Game = when the money is gone.

This is right and also my own experience...

I just bought a headphone pair  by curiosity  and sell them  the same week ... 😊

But we must distinguish those who are in a not so useful  upgrades race as a solution instead  of basic knowledge experiments...

It is more about ignorance than OCD ...

Some of us like to tinker and hear differences. It is not only about the music

"End Game" seems like a variable term defined by expectations. reaching expectations is the end.

so my 'end game' would be different than yours. 

OTOH an 'ultimate system' might have certain commonalities, which i would agree include hearing the music and not gear or the room. that the music has flow and is lively, extended in the highs and lows, and has sufficient headroom to render large music naturally. and that it connects with the listener emotionally and is immersive and exciting.

Theoretically,  what more do we need besides the enjoyment of music?  

Some of us like to tinker and hear differences. It is not only about the music.

The notion that upgrading or changing is only due to OCD is false, or this wouldn't be a legitimate hobby, it would be a psychological support group. I'm not saying you said this, but too many people equate changing things or upgrading things with a disease. This is a puritanical kind of remark and I reject it.

I applaud Mahgister for being happy  with with his low cost system.  Most of us keep throwing money at ours with small incremental upgrades.  [myself included.]  Theoretically,  what more do we need besides the enjoyment of music?  The other side of my brain sees it differently at times.

The reason why my small speakers are so good in spite of their physical limitations which is their small size is the way i modified them is inspired by the concept of transmission line speakers and the Helmholtz resonators principle...

I redesigned the rear porthole with a bundle of different straws of different size and length (max 3 feet ) inserted behind the speakers in the porthole. my speakers are now 50 hertz instead of 80 hertz and clear bass and no negative trade-off... I also redesigned the wave guide to make it better at near listening by putting a cylinder of optimal length near 6 inches...

now these speakers which were well reviewed when i bought them but which i disliked sound like a 1000 bucks small speakers not like a 100 bucks one... I love them so much i will not need to upgrade if they fail ... I will buy another one and modify them the same way ...

High end : basic acoustics knowledge ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_line_loudspeaker

OP, you forgot one crucial point..."and a retail audio customer disappears"