You might consider adding an Uptone Etherregen behind the switch. It’s moat provides substantial reduction of both ground level and RFI/EMI noise. Use your best Ethernet cable between Etherregen or switch and streamer
Network Switches
Another digital question from an analogue guy.
I am currently running an Electrocompanient EDM MKII ( Streamer DAC) and a Small Green Computer Sonic transporter. Both run off of a Trendnet ( unmanaged) basic switch.
Would an upgraded switch have any sonic impact?
If so what switches in the 500 dollar range would be recommended?
117 responses Add your response
Before you spend money, have Grok explain TCP/IP's error correction capabilities at your preferred level. Data transmission is structured to ensure bit-perfect delivery to an endpoint even in the presence of interference. I'm not saying these devices don't provide what they advertise - just what they provide doesn't/can't affect SQ. https://x.com/i/grok/share/PY8Gmk5nxgZuEAeKfbs5gaTAE |
Why o why do,we always get self appointed professors to proselytise on first principles when we discuss network issues. Network issues in audio have nothing to do with error correction, lost bits, sum checking and the digital like. Instead the problems arise frm ground level noise travelling ALONG the bits as well as RFI/EMI cable incursions affecting timing and shape of the analogly transmitted signal of the sine wave and thereby affecting the subsequent D/A conversion at the DAC level.
And refrain from commenting on things you have not listened to… I suggest you spend a bit of time on the analogue transmission of digital data and its problems in time critical audio applications… |
you pose a good question and one that tends to bring out those who are passionate about the subject - on both sides. I first tried the English Electric 8 (EE8) network switch paired with the network acoustics Eno filter. While I believe I perceived a difference, it was modest at best. Nevertheless, I kept both as I was also slowly improving other elements of my system at the time and figured it might help more down the road. From that initial trial, I have upgraded my speakers, cables, amplifier and DAC - basically everything but the network switch and filter. I still had the EE 8 in system and decided to audition the Reiki super switch along with the linear PS. While I was unsure of any benefit the first time around with the EE8, the improvement the Reiki brought was obvious. The unfortunate conclusion I draw from this is that quality costs. It’s possible I’d hear more benefit from the EE8 in my current system if I compared without. I didn’t try that and should have. But I suspect the EE8 had limited (if any) affect while the Reiki had very positive affect. I’m not familiar with your system and so can’t say what your experience might be. But I’d try the Etherregen and then consider getting something well designed when ready. My $.02
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My advice is that switches upstream don't matter. Bad power supplies do. Keep your networking power supplies (i.e. wall warts) off your clean power area. Use a separate conditioner if you need to, and consider using iFi power supplies for them if they are near your audio. Also use shielded IC's and power cords (the cheap shielded, not the expensive shielded) to avoid noise pickup. I like to make my own from parts at Parts Connexion. |
@erik_squires, if you have a second, along the lines of this discussion of switches and power sources, can you tell me what you’d recommend i do about power supplies? I have an NAD M33 that serves as integrated amp and streamer & DAC. It is Ethernet cable connected to a basic, unmanaged 5-port switch (ZYXEL) and the switch is Ethernet cable connected to my Roon Nucleus One and my router (Eero 7), the router is ethernet cable connected to the cable modem (Arris surfboard S33). All of the cable modem, the router, the ZYXEL switch and Nucleus One are, at the moment connected to an AudioQuest PowerQuest 505 (outlets in the non-High Current sections) with their manufacturer provided power cords and power adapters/wall warts. (FWIW, the M33 is connected to the High Current section of the same PQ505 via a new Audio Envy “Expanded Ocean” power cable.) (Speakers are DALI Epicon 6s.) Would you recommend that I get the network items off the PQ505 and put them on their own conditioner/surge protector (E.g., a PQ303)? (I had been thinking that the PQ505 would do a good enough job of separating and killing any noise or other interference, but now you have me questioning that assumption.) Many thanks! |
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@rivinyl is there a reason why you need a switch at all? |
If you're worried about "ground plane noise" or other such nonsense made up by people determined to imbue digital audio with analog traits just because they understand analog on account of having been doing it for 70 years, whereas digital frightens and confuses them, the solution is simple and inexpensive. Use SFP for the last run into your streamer. Voilà! Problem solved.
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+1 on the iFi Additionally, if a guy is stuck deep in the weeds/chasing some noise through the ethernet infrastructure... but, if the speaker is some lackluster li’l matchbox and the room is low resolution chaos, all this ’ethernet stuff’ (for instance) wouldn’t matter a whole lot. [probably 90+ % of tweakers swimming in the neurotic ocean]
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I have 3 switches ranging from $45 to $450. The $450 is today’s price, I paid MSRP of $150 before it became very popular. All my switches support fibre optic output. They take RJ45 Ethernet input from my router, I take the bits from the SFP output of the switch into a Sonore OpticalRendu streamer (I have 3 of these). The Rendu then converts to USB and into my DAC. The last part is where the purity of the solution breaks a bit, but it is not the end of the world. Ideally, a Lumin Bits are just bits is not what this solution is concerned with. It is the analog noise on the wire that someone posted about earlier in the thread. Fibre optic is made of glass and CANNOT carry this analog noise into the DAC. Saying all of this, I could not tell a sonic difference between my 3 network switches. Most likely because I am using fibre optic and the analog noise of my cheap ROON core computer and other network gremlins cannot get into my DACs because of the fibre moat.
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Yes …. An audiophile grade high-end network switch made an audio performance upgrade ….But …incorporated into a full cradle-to-crave (network switch / cable / upgraded network switch power supply) upgrade approach. MY EXPERIENCES : this was a sequential step series as follows before max improvements were achieved. (1) Choice of Ethernet cables matter …. A lot. Think quality build / upgraded top shielding / too TELEGARTNER connectors. I started out with cheap big-box store cables that were completely trash, and progressively moved up in a hands-on experimentation approach. I now have high-end Ethernet cables, just like analogue IC’s and analogue speaker cables. (2) I then watched the Hans Beekhuyzen YouTube videos that persuaded me to take the next step to insert a quality build audiophile network switch. ( for me …SILENT ANGEL) .There are other much more expensive options. https://youtu.be/34MxeKeSo0o?si=P3Py5iagCrO_GJ-N https://youtu.be/ZCFvIzzMqfk?si=Z_xTxFmX58TSZ8_S (3) The standard included-in-the-box network switch power supply was a better than most wall wart, SO an upgrade was done to an external quality- build linear power supply . Again, it was only when this last step was instituted, did the audiophile network switch insertion audio upgrade flash out to its max . (4) A final point that was comparably less in overall impact audio improvement, but still there. …..insert a iFi LAN SILENCER. It added some further taming of that ethereal remaining last bits of digital “ edge “ or “ glare “ …..albeit on a much smaller scale then the other upgrade steps above,
TAKEAWAY The steps herein for audio digital streaming and network digital file playing upgrades were real, and not insignificant even in isolation. They were distinct and wholly welcomed as a system upgrade in MY system. my personal opinion based on my personal systems. Others may have different results . I have four audio systems in my home ranging from about $3K to $50K. The comments above are drawn from my top “A” system with its top audio resolution capabilities.
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My issue with switches for anything other than convenience is its simply not accomplishing much. So you have this noisy modem and router upstream of switch, the audiophile switch there to isolate downstream components from that noise. Ok, I get that, the issue is the streaming chain has already been contaminated from the noisy modem and router, you're only treating the symptoms vs the disease with the switch. A much better route is to treat noise at the source, Broadcom chipset vs Intel chipset in modem, disable wifi on router, emi-rfi contamination, power both via lps. Beyond this get rid of router altogether vs something like Dejitter Switch X, this a switch with capability to assign IP address so wifi can be offloaded to second router with wifi enabled to service rest of house. So now you have a 'clean' or audio only network in house, simple and clean setup. And for those who don't believe networks have any sonic impact, you're welcome to your viewpoint, but this not the case.
In any case, the above optimizations come only after first addressing streamer and dac, this for very mature, high resolution streaming chains and audio systems. Many other more important things to address before adding some fancy switch. |
If there is more than 1 source/streaming device in the same room requiring an ethernet input, the case for the switch is even there. Otherwise, I assume most everyone here does some optical decoupling (pair of FMCs or executed in similar fashion). For a single streamer in a room (which is all that most guys have) Ethernet port on wall ----> [FMC---->optical cable --->FMC with lps]---->’good’ ethernet cable--->ifi silencer inserted into streamers port No unnecessary switch needed in the chain
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Let me start by saying that I don't have the strongest understanding of digital audio transmission works and how the information is encoded and decoded at both ends. However, I am in IT and I do have something of it an understanding of how TCP/IP transmission works. Built into the protocol is constant error checking to make sure the data arrives exactly how it was sent. Each packet is verified four times. I don't understand how the quality of the switch will impact the quality of encoded audio being streamed through it any more than it would affect a Microsoft word document that you are transferring from one PC to another.
There are definitely some gaps in my knowledge, so I'm not going to say "snake oil" with 100% certainty, I'm just going to say that I don't understand how a switch would affect the audio quality of a stream. |
I connect my Internet to my Etherregen with a quality Blue Jeans Ethernet Cable. Then I connect the Etherregen to my Aurender N20 Streamer with a DH Labs Ethernet Cable. No need for additional switch. The sound is excellent. I have most of my ripped FLAC CD library stored on an internal drive on the Aurender and I can’t tell the difference between my ripped files and the same streamed from Qobuz. In my experience adding any additional switch or filters between the Etherregen and the streamer took the air out of the sound as if it some way over filtered the highs. The sound without the Etherregen is noticeably inferior. |
The English Electric 8 seems (to me at least) to an overpriced, and mediocre, piece of equipment. The primary selling point appears to be the crystal quartz oscillator that keeps time. This is a two dollar component that appears in a far range of electronics. For a 8 port, gigabit switch, 700 dollars is extraordinarily expensive. If you want to spend good money on a good switch, a rack mounted layer 3 would be a good bet. |
I agree with the above comment, the EE8 is an overpriced piece of shite, and would struggle to be vfm at 20% of rrp. I had one here and ran it for 14 days and couldn’t wait to return it for a refund. It’s effect on my streaming rig at best could be described as a very mild polishing of the sound. I achieved far better results for <£40 with the purchase of 2 used metal bodied commercial office switches (Zyxel 8 port & Cisco 5 port) which I mildly modded by disabling the LEDs, using gardeners copper slug tape over 100% of the internal of the casework, + some 3M RF/EMI patches and leaving only 2 ports open [1 in & 1 out]. Last week I added a Stack Audio Smooth-LAN passive filter directly behind my ZeniTH mk3 and this gave a pretty significant uplift to the sound. This little unit so impressed me that I’ve gone ahead and ordered their Smooth-LAN Regenerator to see if this will up the ante. Current Network = Full Fibre to property > 1.5m as supplied lan cable > Router > 2m cat 5e > Zyxel 8 port > 0.75m cat 5e > Cisco 5 port > 0.75m cat5e > Smooth-LAN > 0.25m cat 8 > ZENith mk3. |
Why anybody would convert Ethernet to usb into a dac/streamer is nuts, going backwards in sound quality. Ethernet into the dac will always sound better than usb, anything sounds better than usb! I wouldn’t use any switch with a wall wart power source going to my dac or streamer. I go out of my mesh router into a switch that has the power source built in, use an Soundstring power cable into the switch, and then into the streamer using a cat 7 Audioquest Vodka cable, then using a Revelation Audio $700 i2s cable from the streamer into the dac. At an audio show, a dealer was doing a a/b comparison between an expensive $2000 audiophile switch and a typical switch and I thought the system sounded better with the cheap switch.
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“If you want to eliminate any noise into your streamer or dac, convert the Ethernet to fiber then back to Ethernet at the streamer/dac.” @rbstehno , @deep_333 and anybody else who knows, I’ve been thinking about trying this, as an empirical experiment. In my case, I’ve got a cable modem capable of 2.5Gb speed, but my ISP tops out at 1.3Gb, going into an eero 7 which then connects to a standard unmanaged ZYXEL switch, which itself is connected only to a Roon Nucleus One and my streamer/dac (all integrated into my NAD M33), which has an iFi silencer in its port. So, as i don't have or need 10Gb capability, do i need anything beyond 2 media converters and a length of 1000 BASE-LX or SX fiber cable? And is LX (single mode) necessary —or better - when the run will be less than 1 meter? Assuming SX is fine, do these converters fit the bill? https://www.cablesandkits.com/cabling/fiber/media-converters/mcmmsc-1gb/pro-4528/ Anybody have recommendations for fiber? will this do the trick? https://www.cablesandkits.com/mc/om3-lc-lc/fam-531/fp-3818/ thanks! |
Following discussions like this is the reason I have stuck with my CD transport and not gone into streaming yet. Just don't have it in me to tackle another audio project after having gone through all the somewhat simpler considerations that were bought to bear on setting up the system I have arrived at after years of fiddling. |
I agree with antigrunge2 about the etherRegen (eR) between a standard switch and the streamer. After doing this, I added another eR in series. Now my network: standard switch thru cat6 to eR thru fiber optic to another eR through my best cat6 cable into streamer (an HQPlayer NAA in my case). The SMPS that comes with eR is good. A linear PS can make an additional, subtle, improvement. Without the eR in the chain, a linear power supply on the std switch made a big difference. With the eR in place this improvement is subtle. |
Agree with @sns as a good first step prior to diving into FMCs and switches.
Also agree with @erik_squires as which tracks with SNS’ prior comment. Personally, I was skeptical of FMCs until I had a positive experience with SGC FMC bundle to avoid compatibility issues when starting out. I’ve since progressed to a better FMC and more LPS throughout. Bringing it back full circle, I was surprised how much of an impact an LPS had on my generic switch, usage of iFi LAN iSilencer on other accessories, and separate power conditioner. Nonetheless, I was just as skeptical as some in this thread, but experience can offer positive surprises for those that are willing to experiment - not always, but sometimes. |
Fiber conversion also comes in various qualities, I've been through generic, moved up to Sonore OpticalModule and OpticalRendu. Using AfterDark Clay X Fiber cables with Finisar 1475 transceivers. So, fiber conversion quality can extend from cheap generic to Sonore equipment, and then we have power supplies to these devices to think about, DC cables and transceivers also make a sonic difference
What dac interface to use also a consideration, usb should not and is not the de facto best. I've found I2S superior to even quality usb implementation in three different dacs, one of those dacs having one of the best usb implementations I've come across. Whatever interface is chosen, optimal implementation always key.
Bottom line on streaming is, sound quality can be incredibly variable, took 10 years of experimentation with every single facet of the streaming chain to complete my setup. First thing to attend to in any streaming chain is dac and streamer, all these other optimizations are marginal gains vs having top quality dac and streamer. So first place to spend money is dac and streamer, I'd never spend $1500 or even $500 on some audiophile switch with a $10k dac, let alone much less expensive dac. The Sonore OpticalRendu is a really good investment for reasonable money, you get fiber conversion, optimization of usb interface and streamer capability via Roon Endpoint in one package. This is first place I'd spend my money if trying to improve a middling streaming setup. Adding some fancy switch is money poorly spent in comparison to this.
Finally, not saying all audiophile switches of no value, I'm considering replacing my audio or 'clean' network router with a managed switch, specifically the Dejitter Swtich X. Now I would suggest even a generic managed switch could be a nice upgrade for many. With the managed switches you have the ability to assign IP addresses along with all the same features of all switches. The managed switch replaces the router entirely, the single noisiest component in streaming chain, this due to EMI-RFI contamination, self generated noise, network congestion. Using the managed switch one assigns IP address to a whole house router, your run LAN cable to whole house router, voila, no more RFI contamination, less self generated noise and network congestion. The Dejitter swtich is simply a highly modified managed switch, the advantages of this switch are manifestly clear based on my research. |
Certainly, like analog interconnects, network cabling, power supplies have an influence. I just use a Netgear GS105 at the music-server direct to an EtherRegen (MK1). The ER is powered from a Lumin U1 PSU, the GS105 from a Chinese 5A 12V linear supply. By adding SilentPower lan ipurifier pro and knock off Odin CAT8 cables, that harshness seemed to be tamed. Not a big deal, but enough to keep the gear in place. |
So much misinformation on how networking works. TCP/IP packets are 100% digital, there is no place for noise, if there is any noise, it is not part of the packet. In networks, you want as few hops as possible. A hop is going from one device to another. Generally, anything you remove from the source - destination is best. Streaming can happen without any faults on a 10mb network, anything over 100mb is just not required. Next you want the shortest path you can get, unless you are running fiber, fiber doesn't care about distance as much. On that note, fiber has 0 interference, unless you bend the fiber cable, never bend a fiber cable, but you can loop it. Almost all cheap consumer switches are junk. There are a few good ones out there, but most are super cheap, crap. Get a name brand made for commercial use. Yeah, a good power supply will help, but the switch quality is more important. No idea on the filters, really have no idea how they work, or what they really do. Cables are important, pin out is important, get certified cables, it's what's being used to get the packets to you, so it's good enough for you. |
Starting 4 years ago I built up a switch adding things that improved the sound of streaming. EtherRegen +Afterdark clock to re-time the ER, then two Farad linear power supplies then all the afterdark cables. Each added something better at the time. It was almost 4K of switch components. I lent the entire rig to my friend who said it deadened the sound. I did a full switch system to no extra switch gear and found I had gone too far as well. I sold it all off. Last year when After Dark came out with their Netone switch which I bought. The Netone includes fiber or ethernet in, a fiber bridge if you can't feed it fiber. I ordered mine with the built in linear power supply (LPS), and of course it has a clock built in at well. The Afterdark Netone made a vey nice, but not huge sonic improvement with no sonic downside I could hear. My streamer used to drop out overnight before I had the Netone. Now it never drops Qobuz. So you get a switch, fiber bridge, LPS and a clock in one box on sale for 600 bucks from time to time. I recommend you try it. |
yep. None of this is necessary. I tried a few tweaks and removed them all. Good Ethernet cable going into high quality streamer feeding a high quality dac is all you need. Dumping $ into Ethernet tweaks (except a good cable) is a waste of money that could be directed to real improvements such as component upgrades stepping up to a better DAC. Or a better streamer, amplifier, speakers, etc |
I do wonder if the incremental improvements would keep up with the exponential cost increases. On the lower end of the cost spectrum the LAN silencers might be worth a try ( as long as they can be returned ). Has anyone compared the IFI Lan Silencer to the Stack Audio or even the Pink Faun Lan Silencer. None of these options would break the bank. |
The iFi does no harm in my system. I can’t hear any difference with it in. It provides electrical isolation and protection against transient voltage surges. I am totally cool with the fact that I don’t hear any difference with it. As opposed to Network Acoustics Eno Streaming System that I used to own and that killed the dynamics, to me this ifi gadget is a winner. Others reported improvements in sound with the ifi and that is possible but highly dependent on streamer and environment your system lives in - rfi, emi, etc. People love playing with network tweaks. It’s a low hanging fruit. Address room acoustics, component quality and power distribution that all make a much bigger impact than adding crap to remediate non-existent issues in network. That’s my $0.05 |
I use fiber conversion but only to air-gap my cable modem from my router. This is mostly to deny lightning this path to all my expensive electronics in the house. It comes at a cost however in that I now have 2 additional power supplies to deal with. In the data closet that’s fine, but I would only use this at the audio side if my streamer took fiber directly. Otherwise I’m just creating more problems than necessary. For Ethernet isolation, again, my biggest concern is lightning. The twisted pair strands in the Ethernet cable are inherently galvanically isolated. They have to be or you’d have high currents running from switch to switch in some buildings. However at the end of long runs (30' or so) I use medical grade Ethernet isolators (UL 60-601) instead of audio grade. The reason is medical-grade isolators are tested for 4kV isolation and can deny a voltage surge another path. Avoid any network surge protector with a ground wire. |
“None of these options would break the bank” If you haven’t already, upgrade the wall-wart power supply of your Trendnet switch, something like the iFi SilentPower iPower2 for a noticeable impact. In my experience, LAN silencer-type devices don’t do much. I’d recommend saving that money and putting it toward a Network Acoustics ENO or ENO2 passive filter upstream of your EDM MKII. Those bring genuine gains in clarity and ease without adding artificial smoothness. ENO2 comes with money back guarantee, send it back if you don’t hear noticeable improvement. I might add, around $1K, the ENO is probably the best tweak you can try out. BTW, how do you like your EDM MKII? I am looking for one box solution for my 2nd system…it’s native compatibility with JPLAY app make it even more appealing. +1, @audphile1 on addressing “room acoustics, component quality and power distribution” |
I love the ECM. Its very natural sounding, perhaps a touch warm ( which I like ). Vocals are so lifelike ; its a bit spooky at times. It does need a good 50- 100 hours break in. I had several prior DACs including Bricasti and Linn; and this is much more natural and organic sounding. Its definitely a keeper. Rob at Audio Art sells them now and he is great to work with.
Couple of questions for you regarding your post. Would I be better served with an LPS for the network switch or my router/modem? And where would the Network Acoustics ENO be positioned? |
IME, LPS are overkill for mass produced network switches and/or router modem. Aforementioned iFI wall wart is more than adequate for them. You would position ENO between your switch or router and ECM. In order words, ENO should be the last device before Ethernet signal enters your ECM. And thank you for your feedback and referral on ECM. It does aligns with what I’ve been reading online. |
I added the effe isolator - Dawn Technology Limited in front of the Grimm. This adds optical fiber in the network feed to the streamer. A Sablon network cable feeds my Grimm MU1. A Sablon digital XLR feeds the Mola Mola Tambaqui. All other network cables are inakustik CAT 6 Ethernet cables.
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A FMC Fiber coupling pair will not just protect your gear, prevent it frying from extraneous power anomalies (lightning, etc), it will also serve as a effective noise mitigation solution for hifi. This is how the chain would flow a) Ethernet port on wall ------->
b) FMC#1 + Transciever (plug the transceiver into your FMC) -------> https://www.optcore.net/product/101001000base-t-sfp-fiber-media-converter/?attribute_pa_plug-type=us https://www.optcore.net/product/msa-1g-sfp-sx-multimode-transceiver/
c) Patch cable (for decoupling) ------------> https://www.optcore.net/product/25348/?attribute_pa_cable-length=1m
d) FMC#2 ----------------------------> If you only have a single streamer, use the same model as FMC#1 +transceiver to complete the FMC pair. If you have multiple sources/streamers in the same room requiring an ethernet input use this multiport model that takes your patch cable. https://www.optcore.net/product/mc-gsa28-l/?attribute_pa_plug-type=us Power FMC#2 with a decent linear power supply as you are concerned about the quality of everything in the chain from FMC#2 onwards (after the fiber decoupling occured).
e) High quality Ethernet cable now running from FMC#2 to any of your streamers....such as a Audioquest Cinnamon, Vodka, etc depending on what your budget is ---------->
f) You can plug that high quality ethernet cable directly into a streamer....or use additional filtering...ie. you can plug that cable into a isilencer ifi , which in turn plugs into the streamer. Here’s maybe a different alternative to the ifi isilencer.. https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/DXE-ISO-PLUS-2 There are many such ethernet filters out there (mileage may vary)....
Don’t get too crazy ocd with the quality of your transceiver, filter etc though...Getting a big bold better speaker and treating your room with some diaphragmatic absorption, QRD diffusers, etc would bear a lot more fruit.
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Thank you for referencing effe-01. The price point makes it a very attractive alternative to conventional fiber optic modules and conversion Ethernet switches + wall wart power supplies. I am using a very similar device albeit a very high price point. @audphile1 …please check it out. |
Is there anything to what Cen. Grand has with their GLD1.0? They say that all the hardware one throws at a better sounding set up won't get you the results you want as most servers still use USB data transmission internally and that's where the degradation of the sound comes from. Data errors occur at the rate of 1 error per 12.5TB for consumer grade, 1 per 125TB for enterprise grade and 1 per 1.25PB for SSD so the problem has to lie in data transmission. Eschewing internal USB transmission, they use their own proprietary way of transmission and got a patent for it (for what that's worth). Here's the preview of a review from 6moons and here's the companies spiel on their streamer. Analysis from those of sharper minds would be appreciated. All the best, |
