I am currently running an Electrocompanient EDM MKII ( Streamer DAC) and a Small Green Computer Sonic transporter. Both run off of a Trendnet ( unmanaged) basic switch.
Would an upgraded switch have any sonic impact?
If so what switches in the 500 dollar range would be recommended?
@tsharkI don’t doubt switches make a difference. The difference though can be either positive or negative. I have a very good dedicated streamer and a dac with a a tried and true network card. The difference between using a dedicated streamer feeding the DAC via a good USB cable and streaming using the network card in a DAC yields different results. And so it should. And I’ll be hard pressed to buy into an idea that a switch or a regen/reckocker between the router and a DAC can bridge that gap completely. Going down the rabbit hole with Ethernet tweaks without adding a good streamer is a waste of time and money. IMO.
This brings us back to the point I was making earlier about investing in components as opposed to tweaks to feed an inferior streaming device.
The OP is using an inbuilt streamer/network card. Ideally to step up in sound quality a dedicated streamer is money better spent than a high end switch. A better Ethernet cable alone can improve things significantly but then again it won’t reach the level of performance you get with a proper streamer. This has been my experience and it’s unfortunately the reality in most cases.
Alternatively if the Elecrocompaniet in question is a streamer with a built in DAC, a dedicated outboard DAC would be the next logical step in improving performance.
Lest some of us are confused...Below are some definitions.
In a network, a router connects different networks together, allowing devices on those networks to communicate with each other and the internet. A switch connects devices within the same network, enabling them to share resources and information. A server provides services and resources to other devices on the network, such as web pages, email, or applications.
“why is it people don't reconsider the router?” @sns
I can think of few reasons; convenience, no upfront cost and support from their ISP. For most folks, ISP routers simply works so why bother, right?
Replacing your ISP router can be daunting for most users but for those with revealing digital systems and a commitment to noise management, it can quietly elevate everything. Just like low-level detail, you won’t know what you’re missing until it’s gone.
For those naysayers who claim switches can't make a sonic difference its the same old story. Man, I've heard the same thing about myriad things, probably every single component in one's system. Theoreticals don't impress me, empirical evidence matters much more for me, relatively large numbers of people in concurrence is my gold standard for trying something.
Switches are one of those rare components that invites great variability as to benefits. I maintain this due to the fact they accomplish so little, specifically designed LAN filters are better filters/isolators. What else does a switch add other than convenience, someplace to connect streaming audio components to a home network where router placement far from audio system? You're home network already compromised by a crappy noisy router, long cheap LAN cable run from router to switch, most likely running router via noisy SMPS off whole house AC. All the mitigation efforts applied post crap router are only band aids, the damage already done.
My question is while it seems many concur that the home network has sonic impacts in the sense they find LAN filters and optical conversions to be effective, why is it people don't reconsider the router? Seems to me the routers, being at the headwaters of entire streaming chain needs attention. The Dejitter Switch X is the first I know of to offer an audiophile solution to this. I suspect we'll see more of these types of devices coming if and when the positive reviews continue to roll in.
Don’t knock it till you try it. I was a doubter but did add the Uptown Audio EtherRegen switch and not only did it help with better sounding audio, I noticed Les noise on my 60” Sony XBR picture. I could see the hockey puck easier on a crisper white ice background.
This forum needs a facepalm emoji in order to deal succinctly with the toxic delusional nonsense being spouted.
Who wants to waste words responding to $2000 network switches - used, no less? Since when has "audiophile" become synonymous with credulous & benighted? Do we have to explain EVERYTHING ten times over? This is becoming tedious. Emoji, please.
2k "used" for a flipping switch, you say?....Right, right, Ted Denny is so deserving, ain’t he? I should dissect his crap one day and compare it to a Cisco 100 dollar run of the mill for ya.
But, ’you got what you paid for’, said Denny, I bet, mmhmm (facepalm).
Bet he is a EECS PhD too from Devry, eh?
Synergistic Research has one of the best Ethernet hubs and cables. Good independent reviews online. Can buy used around 2K. If you are streaming a lot and have a good system, it is well worth it.
People be wildin on this thread...anyone considering an expensive/audiophile ethernet switch: Please DYOR. I strongly suggest using ChatGPT/Grok to explain TCP/IP and you'll see it's actually a pretty genius technology for that guarantees bit-perfect end-to-end data transmission.
Pizza tastes the same whether it's delivered in a limo or a Hyundai Elantra.
Analog transmission is different - in that realm, everything matters.
Yes, but one needs both a highly transparent audio chain and choose a higher quality audiophile switch to hear the difference/improvement
If so what switches in the 500 dollar range would be recommended?
None. Usually one has to spend significantly more to hear a meaningful difference/improvements like Network Acoustics, Ansuz, SR, Telegartner. Below these quality/price points positive results are more uncertain
@rikkipuuThe difference between a router and switch is the router can assign IP addresses, common switches don't. A managed switch does have the ability to assign IP addresses, so managed switch can replace a router. Since regular switches don't one must keep router in streaming chain, switch is added after router, generally the advantage of the switch is to isolate streaming chain from the whole house router, router continues to serve the whole house system. I also see switches added in setups where router located far from the audio system, long LAN cable to switch, switch located near audio system so shorter, audiophile LAN cable serves audio system. Some switches also have optical capability, same with routers, this may be an advantage as well.
The back of the house Ethernet is often a chain of parts
Most of us spend for and value top tier connects for other parts of our systems and the same should be true for our digital connections that often require a switch. On a bicycle a clean chain is best. Sure a dirty one works but…….
In my experience Ethernet out from the wall “cleaned up” is better.
SR makes a Router and a Switch. What's the difference? What does an audiophile Router do that a Switch does not? Is it similar to two switches? Is the order Modem, Router then Switch? What goes into the Router, just the Modem and Switch?
@foggyus91 I have and I am aware. Brad makes some very fine cables regardless. This last one is a used one I snagged off USAM. But I bought the other 2 directly from Brad.
I just sold my Eno V1 streaming system, I prefer just a better RJ 45 to Aurender N200. I discovered this by removing the Eno filter and just used the Eno RJ45. I liked it. So I have a Revelation Audio Lab RJ 45 on the way. I have his DC cable and I2s cable already.
That was not the case in my system when I tried ENO…it was a definite improvement vs not using any filters. The key here is to try..ENO is now on 2nd generation..ENO2. I don’t think @audphile1tried their ENO2 (I could be mistaken in assuming that)!
@snsgood post.
CD rips on SSD mounted inside my streamer (AAIF, FLAC) is what I use for comparison as well but once again we’re potentially comparing 🍏 and 🍊 as we just don’t know if we’re streaming the same master from Tidal and Qobuz. In most cases streaming in my system equals to or beats CD rips. Streaming also far exceeds the sound quality of my CD playback using the same DAC but that’s not a fair comparison as my streaming setup is approximately 10x the cost. I just enjoy popping a cd in once in a while.
I'm not one to say switches don't affect sonics, but just like this entire thread shows results highly variable. I've tried both generic and a $1500 audiophile switch, both changed the sound and not for the better. The various filters I've tried over the years are more effective, yet they may also change the sound quality in ways not appreciated, again we see this in this thread. Bottom line there is not a single best way or network component that will be best for everyone.
My streaming chain is so entirely unique that specific recommendations are difficult, most of my knowledge comes from the 'experts' over at audiophilestyle forum. Based on that and my own experience, no wifi on audio network, every hard wired cable short as possible, this includes modem and router, this means ISP feed in listening room, clocking extremely important this includes network, so network devices like switches/filters should have quality clocks and power supplies to those clocks, filters are effective, optical is nice, quality of all cables makes a difference, this includes all DC and AC cables, quality dedicated and conditioned AC for all streaming components. So that's just for the network, a high quality dac, streamer and audio system is by far the priority, this all icing on the cake. Good test for quality streaming setup is stream sound quality should equal cd rips on local network or cd player/transport, I have over 3k rips to compare with.
Also, a respected dealer/ friend who used to sell Network Acoustics products found them to compress dynamics in his system. As much as he enjoyed working with them he ultimately stopped carrying their products. Has anyone had a similar experience?
have you read my response? It’s exactly what I mentioned
I am quite impressed with the extent of responses my question has stimulated. Drilling down a bit it looks like perhaps an optical power isolator may be the most cost efficient way to go. Again, in my analogue brain it looks like the iFi Silent Power 2 is a similar device, in theory, to the effe isolator. Any chance anyone has had a experience with both?
Also, a respected dealer/ friend who used to sell Network Acoustics products found them to compress dynamics in his system. As much as he enjoyed working with them he ultimately stopped carrying their products. Has anyone had a similar experience?
Both ENO and effe -01 offers 30 days money back guarantee. If we’re in your shoes, i would order both and compare them side by side. That’s the only way to know for sure that these devices offers any audible benefits in your system.
Synergistic Research has one of the best Ethernet hubs and cables. Good independent reviews online. Can buy used around 2K. If you are streaming a lot and have a good system, it is well worth it.
Apologies FOR not reading all of the responses (arguments). A good network switch, placed before your streamer, IMHO, makes a considerable improvement in digital sound. Those that refute this, IMHO, either have not heard it, can not hear it, or do not want to believe it. As said, a $500 unit (I have had both Ether Regen and EE Bonn 8, makes a modest improvement. A unit like the Network Acoustics Switch, the Telegartner (JCAT), or the GTT DeJitterit, makes a significant improvement. I have tried all three and own both the GTT and the JCAT Gold. Ignore naysayers if you want the best sound. Buy a switch you can return to try. NA makes this easy. Also power supplies do really matter, and any good switch needs a good LPS. Additionally, the last network cable entering your steamer matters. Try a good one, or even better, use a Network Acoustics Muon or Eno Ethernet filter between your switch and steamer, which includes a great streaming cable.
Mswale-I agree with you. I was doing enterprise networks in 1990, doing token ring, Ethernet, and AppleTalk. I learned and mastered the Network General’s Sniffer where I could look at what was going on in each network. I could see the whole IP packet with all the associated metadata.
When somebody tells you they modified the structure of an IP packet, that’s BS. If you do this nothing will work. When dealing with data, the standard mtu is 1500 bytes. When I was streaming large database data, I was using jumbo frames which increased efficiency in a WAN environment. If I was doing 4K streaming I would try using jumbo packets, but for music, the standard mtu is fine.
1 more thing, there is nothing to a switch, it forwards packets to a destination which can be another switch, router, or a device. Do a trace route to see how many hops you go thru getting to tidal/qobuz/google.
All the work happens on both ends of the route, not the switch itself. My switch is more of an enterprise switch where it doesn’t use a wall wart, and I’m using a few hundred $$ power cable into the switch
I also agree with the poster that i2s is the best interface. My streamers job is to change the signal path from Ethernet coming in to i2s going out.
Not sure how expensive a system it would take to notice differences in Ethernet switches. I have a $30 gigabit switch on a Bluesound 2I and it sounds great. I have about a 10k system. I have heard much more expensive systems that are on better steamers and better Internet but not worth to me a lot of dollars more with a slight improvement. If you have the $$$ go for it and enjoy.
I found what i hope are equivalent devices on Amazon (bowing to tax, shipping and return issues). I’m going to try this out.
I’m also tempted to do this for the reason @erik_squiresmentions. I could build two “moats”: one between modem and router and then one just before the M33.
Effe-01 is an optical network isolator. Not exactly a switch but you are not asking about a switch because you need to branch out to many devices. You’re asking for something that can improve your network. There are many ways to skin this CAT.
Optical isolation, switch with reclocker/regen, passive filters like the NA Eno, etc
I tried the copper to fiber two box solution using a $65 set from amazon. I tested these with 3 different streamers and I did not like the effect. Yes it seems to produce a more silent background but it imparts a certain flavor to the presentation especially obvious in the mids that renders it unnatural. I made several attempts and each time yanked it out and went back to straight copper cable between eero and streamer. Streamers used: Lumin U1 Mini, Bricasti M3 DAC network renderer, Aurender N200.
I am keeping an open mind and will try the iFi pro purifier when I have an opportunity but I’m not in a hurry to do it.
As to effe-01….I’d love to try it but trying something shipped from Europe is not very appealing to me as the return shipping is a pain in the 🫏
You guys can try it and let me know. I’ll be patiently waiting.
Looks like the the iFi LAN ipurifier pro and the effe unit both run the signal through a transmitter, a receiver, and a short length of fiber. This works well, and it is essentially the exact same setup @deep_333described in one of his posts above, except all components are integrated in a single box, which is more convenient and less unwieldy. It also costs $299 instead of $40ish.
Also, discrete components let you have any length fiber run you need, handy if you keep your Internet gear in a separate room.
@lalitkyep you and I discussed this in the past. It makes sense although these lower priced devices won’t compete with your telegartner. I have my eye on the iFi LAN ipurifier pro which is similar to effe in what it does (I gather based on a wuick look). Just can’t get around to trying it. Was tangled up in USB cables comparison and upgrade and it eventually rippled into a DAC upgrade 🤦♂️
Hope you didn't fall for this foolery....no breakthrough here from Cen gra d
It is essentially reading to me as.....plug a nvme data drive directly into the motherboard...lol. Any half way decent gaming PC in the past 5 years will be running NVME drives. (facepalm)...
If you want, I can tell you how to build a top notch "streamer" at home by yourself for less than 2k....make it sound better than a 100k streamer from Switzerland or sonething! what do you think?
Here's a secret..it will be a custom PC in a console type case...you can call it a "streamer" though.
data transmission. Eschewing internal USB transmission, they use their own proprietary way of transmission and got a patent for it (for what that's worth).
Here's the preview of a review from 6moons and here's the companies spiel on their streamer. Analysis from those of sharper minds would be appreciated.
Is there anything to what Cen. Grand has with their GLD1.0? They say that all the hardware one throws at a better sounding set up won't get you the results you want as most servers still use USB data transmission internally and that's where the degradation of the sound comes from.
Data errors occur at the rate of 1 error per 12.5TB for consumer grade, 1 per 125TB for enterprise grade and 1 per 1.25PB for SSD so the problem has to lie in data transmission. Eschewing internal USB transmission, they use their own proprietary way of transmission and got a patent for it (for what that's worth).
Thank you for referencing effe-01. The price point makes it a very attractive alternative to conventional fiber optic modules and conversion Ethernet switches + wall wart power supplies. I am using a very similar device albeit a very high price point.
A FMC Fiber coupling pair will not just protect your gear, prevent it frying from extraneous power anomalies (lightning, etc), it will also serve as a effective noise mitigation solution for hifi.
This is how the chain would flow
a) Ethernet port on wall ------->
b) FMC#1 + Transciever (plug the transceiver into your FMC) ------->
Power FMC#2 with a decent linear power supply as you are concerned about the quality of everything in the chain from FMC#2 onwards (after the fiber decoupling occured).
e) High quality Ethernet cable now running from FMC#2 to any of your streamers....such as a Audioquest Cinnamon, Vodka, etc depending on what your budget is ---------->
f) You can plug that high quality ethernet cable directly into a streamer....or use additional filtering...ie. you can plug that cable into a isilencer ifi , which in turn plugs into the streamer.
Here’s maybe a different alternative to the ifi isilencer..
There are many such ethernet filters out there (mileage may vary)....
Don’t get too crazy ocd with the quality of your transceiver, filter etc though...Getting a big bold better speaker and treating your room with some diaphragmatic absorption, QRD diffusers, etc would bear a lot more fruit.
“If you want to eliminate any noise into your streamer or dac, convert the Ethernet to fiber then back to Ethernet at the streamer/dac.”
@rbstehno , @deep_333 and anybody else who knows, I’ve been thinking about trying this, as an empirical experiment. In my case, I’ve got a cable modem capable of 2.5Gb speed, but my ISP tops out at 1.3Gb, going into an eero 7 which then connects to a standard unmanaged ZYXEL switch, which itself is connected only to a Roon Nucleus One and my streamer/dac (all integrated into my NAD M33), which has an iFi silencer in its port.
So, as i don’t have or need 10Gb capability, do i need anything beyond 2 media converters and a length of 1000 BASE-LX or SX fiber cable? And is LX (single mode) necessary —or better - when the run will be less than 1 meter? Assuming SX is fine, do these converters fit the bill?
IME, LPS are overkill for mass produced network switches and/or router modem. Aforementioned iFI wall wart is more than adequate for them. You would position ENO between your switch or router and ECM. In order words, ENO should be the last device before Ethernet signal enters your ECM.
And thank you for your feedback and referral on ECM. It does aligns with what I’ve been reading online.
I love the ECM. Its very natural sounding, perhaps a touch warm ( which I like ). Vocals are so lifelike ; its a bit spooky at times. It does need a good 50- 100 hours break in. I had several prior DACs including Bricasti and Linn; and this is much more natural and organic sounding. Its definitely a keeper. Rob at Audio Art sells them now and he is great to work with.
Couple of questions for you regarding your post. Would I be better served with an LPS for the network switch or my router/modem?
And where would the Network Acoustics ENO be positioned?
“None of these options would break the bank” @rivinyl
If you haven’t already, upgrade the wall-wart power supply of your Trendnet switch, something like the iFi SilentPower iPower2 for a noticeable impact.
In my experience, LAN silencer-type devices don’t do much. I’d recommend saving that money and putting it toward a Network Acoustics ENO or ENO2 passive filter upstream of your EDM MKII. Those bring genuine gains in clarity and ease without adding artificial smoothness. ENO2 comes with money back guarantee, send it back if you don’t hear noticeable improvement. I might add, around $1K, the ENO is probably the best tweak you can try out.
BTW, how do you like your EDM MKII? I am looking for one box solution for my 2nd system…it’s native compatibility with JPLAY app make it even more appealing.
+1, @audphile1on addressing “room acoustics, component quality and power distribution”
I use fiber conversion but only to air-gap my cable modem from my router. This is mostly to deny lightning this path to all my expensive electronics in the house. It comes at a cost however in that I now have 2 additional power supplies to deal with. In the data closet that’s fine, but I would only use this at the audio side if my streamer took fiber directly. Otherwise I’m just creating more problems than necessary.
For Ethernet isolation, again, my biggest concern is lightning. The twisted pair strands in the Ethernet cable are inherently galvanically isolated. They have to be or you’d have high currents running from switch to switch in some buildings. However at the end of long runs (30' or so) I use medical grade Ethernet isolators (UL 60-601) instead of audio grade. The reason is medical-grade isolators are tested for 4kV isolation and can deny a voltage surge another path. Avoid any network surge protector with a ground wire.
The iFi does no harm in my system. I can’t hear any difference with it in. It provides electrical isolation and protection against transient voltage surges. I am totally cool with the fact that I don’t hear any difference with it. As opposed to Network Acoustics Eno Streaming System that I used to own and that killed the dynamics, to me this ifi gadget is a winner. Others reported improvements in sound with the ifi and that is possible but highly dependent on streamer and environment your system lives in - rfi, emi, etc.
People love playing with network tweaks. It’s a low hanging fruit. Address room acoustics, component quality and power distribution that all make a much bigger impact than adding crap to remediate non-existent issues in network. That’s my $0.05
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