Let your ears be your guide. There's nothing wrong with McIntosh and ML.
Musician vs. audiophile
We need direction here. My wife, a musician and says my Sophia 3s, powered by BAT 3VK IX tube pre amp and 250w solid state amp sounds flat compared to a freaking Best Buy box store
McIntosh/Martin Logan setup... I can't honestly disagree, specifically when our rig is at low volume. It lacks color and punch, even with 2ea. JL 12" subs... Help me with your recommendation, please!!!
95 responses Add your response
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The Wilsons and the BAT are somewhat dull sounding to my ears. Both together can't have the greatest presence. I remember the same with Classe and Aragon amps. A few experiments you could try: The subs may also be coloring the sound. Remove them. Toe in speakers so tweeter is pointing at your ears. Replace your interconnect cable with a Belkin Gold AV cheapo from eBay in case your cables are a problem - most are. Replace your tubes with EH or Gold Lion. |
First...I agree mostly with Charles to trust your ears :) , but when you have a significant other involved, you may need to compromise. I suspect your wife is like my wife (also a musician), she prefers speakers that are more natural sounding like Harbeths, Proac, Magnepans, Quads or Vandersteens. Wilsons and Magico are very much audiophile speakers, if you ask me. It’s really a matter of taste, preference and compromise. For me, I appreciate both types of speakers. My wife really really liked the sound of the Harbeth 40.2 but I didn’t have the funds at the time and she wasn’t big on putting speakers on stands. I was using a pair of Harbeth C7ES3 at the time. At the end, it was a comprise on multiple fronts, price, aesthetics, size and most importantly sound. We ended up buying a pair of Vandersteen Treo CTs. Per my wife, the speakers made the piano sound right and very natural (the price was right too). :) Have you listen to higher end Vandersteen speakers? A nice comprise, if you decide on looking for speakers again could be a pair of Vandersteen Quatro CTs or the 5A Carbons. Both speakers have active bass and both sound wonderfully natural. The Treo CTs are passive and bit light on the bass, but they hold their own, plus you have a pair of JL subs to add into the mix. Check them out, if you have dealer close by. |
I suspect that an impedance compatibility issue is contributing to the problem. Your BAT VK-3iX (I assume that is what you meant) has output impedances for its XLR and RCA outputs that are very high and that also vary widely across the frequency range, at least if your unit does not have the optional Six-Pak upgrade. From Stereophile’s measurements: The VK-3iX’s output impedance was also high, and this might well have an effect on sound quality, depending on the input impedance of the partnering preamplifier [I assume he meant "amplifier"]. The unbalanced source impedance varied from 7k ohms at 20Hz to 1460 ohms at 1kHz and 2650 ohms at 20kHz, while the balanced figures ranged from a very high 14k ohms at 20Hz to 1850 ohms in the midband and above.You didn’t say what amplifier you are using, but those numbers definitely indicate that sonic issues **will** arise with many and perhaps even the majority of solid state amps. Also, I suspect that like most JL subs your subs probably provide only line-level inputs, and you are either driving the power amp from the preamp’s XLR outputs and the sub from the preamp’s RCA outputs, or vice versa. Many and perhaps most preamps providing XLR and RCA outputs do not drive the two pairs of outputs from separate output stages, and the signal provided to the RCA connector for each channel is the same signal that is provided to one of the two signal pins on the corresponding XLR connector. If that is the case with the VK-3iX the input impedance of the subs and the capacitance of the cables to the subs (especially if those cables are relatively long) can both have audibly significant effects on the signals received by the main power amp, that are reproduced by the main speakers. So if you already haven’t done so assessing the sonics provided by the Sophia with the sub cables disconnected from the preamp may provide useful insight into the issue. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
I am not familiar with the BAT amplifier. I have had a pair of Sopra No2's and McIntosh MC452 power amp, since the Sopra's were first available and am so "smitten" I'm not looking to change. One thing I found about my Sopra's was that it took at least 200 or so hours of break in time, for them to open up some. But at around six months or so, they really seemed to "relax" and sound less "confined". These speakers throw a "huge" amount of sound, yet I've found they are very adept at the "performer in the room" sound stage. |
To add to my previous post, i'm very familiar with Wilson speakers -- they're the very reason of spending a fortune and receiving a lady-bug size performance. overpriced and sound very poor in general especially Alexandria. in fact the higher priced Wilson sound worse than cheapest. First off they do not image and keep sound within the box -- all of'em with any amplifier paired. You can only dream about tonal balance... Obviously major brick-mortar store such as Best Buy would not target their customers with the product they wouldn't understand they paid money for. BAT amp is great. |
Repeter. nycjlee brings up an interesting observation regarding the listening perception of perhaps some musicians. They could in fact be particularly sensitive to speakers/components that they feel deviate from what they recognize/consider a natural sound or tone quality . It seems reasonable their ears could quickly detect what they might interpret as an artificial sound quality. Just a hunch and certainly not all musicians perceive or hear the same. As nycjlee mentioned though some speakers (components also) do seem to present what some may identify as a more "natural " sound. Maybe the 2 musicians wife’s cited in this thread fit in this particular category of listeners. Charles |
+1 Al Great advice! As for Best Buy box speakers - don’t dismiss them. Speakers can be quite good at the $2500 price range and up. (Harmon Kardon own Revel and continue to do a good job F206 or 208). If you want good quality speakers that would satisfy a critical listening musician then I would recommend ATC or PMC or Genelec. That said, I don’t see why your Wilson Sophia 3 can’t be your speaker for life - if driven properly per Al’s comments. |
In general, Wilson speakers sound great when... they are properly matched to other components, proper cabling, and pretty good to great acoustics (and positioning) in the room. If they sound flat and uninteresting it is not unusual at all. However, this is the 3rd iteration of Sophia's and they should (normally) be the cornerstone of your system. A Wilson dealer should come over and see and hear your system and make some suggestions starting with the most cost-effective ones 1st. If you can afford a more forgiving pair of speakers there are several i can think of, but that could involve a lot of money, time, and effort as well. I always wanted the accuracy of Wilson's but i thought i could do better elsewhere and for less money and ended up with a giant-killing pair of Eggleston Andra's. Anything similar to those would IMO add a great measure of musicality to most normal living rooms (Merlins, Sonus Faber, Reference 3a's, Focal, etc.). |
What an interesting situation. But first, what is the source ? She might prefer the sound of panel or hybrid speakers as many women do, but something is wrong with the BAT/Wilson set-up. Also, the power amp is solid state not tube, this might contribute. In addition, wall current may be bad. A lot of work to do. |
repeter Your situation is not real unusual. Musician's views of what they listen for is all over the place. They are just like us in that way. Similar musicians are closer to their shared likes. What kind of musician is she? You do not have to answer that for us. Anyway if you are happy with your system do not worry just enjoy it. No system sounds perfect or close to the original event. Our systems usually are comprised of the shortcomings we are willing live with for the other things they do well. It is good to find out what is important to you. Otherwise you won't be near as happy with your system for very long. If you do share the system with your wife to enjoy then maybe you can get with her to go listen to some systems to she what sounds good to her and find out why. Then make some adjustments to achieve that. |
You did not state what power amp? Assuming it is a BAT too but who knows. Now I must state from personal experience and a number of other comments I have read that BAT and Wilson speakers are usually a marriage made in heaven IF everything else is correct. I have no experience of the BAT preamp but I use a BAT power amp to drive my Wilson's and I am wanting for nothing. Imaging and soundstage are superlative and bass response can cause bowel movements....lol. Even at low levels for evening duty I am losing nothing and flat is not a word I could ever use. Als suggestion to disconnect the subs is excellent and the first place to start. You also have no mention of source? Streaming, CD,vinyl?? Could be numerous issues there too. |
The Sophias are anything but flat, punchless and colorless. Even with an average 250w ss amp ( assuming no impedence mismatch) and a BAT tube front end, the Sophias should give you dynamics and color. Either amp/ preamp mismatch, poor setup ( Wilson’s should be toed in so you can barely see the inside of each tweeter portion of the cabinet at your listening position) or cables. My $ is on bad positioning which will make the Sophia’s punchless, colorless and sterile.I agree that a Wilson dealer rep should be hired to have a look. They are truly great speakers if set up right. |
I don't pretend to know what's going on with you, your wife, and your system.....but I'll second MarqMike: Lots of musicians are apparently deaf to reproduced sound. I deal with musicians all the time and the variety of their reactions to the same recording thru the same system is bewildering. BTW, I have a small home studio and the recordings in question are sometimes my own efforts: Recordings of people who were playing in the same space that playback is offered thru my system. If there's a guy on guitar and a woman singing on the recording there will frequently be four or more opinions. (Love my guitar, love her vocal, but hate the mix....or....love the mix, hate her vocal, love my guitar....etc. Then you have her takes). There's no rhyme or reason. |
James Boyk, Pianist In Residence at the California Institute of Technology (where he teaches), is a performing musician, recording engineer at his label Performance Recordings, equipment reviewer, and long-time audiophile. In one talk he gave, he described how the timbre and tonality of his piano changes as a long-held notes/chord fades to silence, the relative strengths of the fundamentals and all their overtones changing as the notes fade. When he evaluates equipment, James listens for the ability of the product under test to reproduce that changing timbre he knows is contained in his recordings of he playing his piano. Wow! Last I heard, his monitor and pleasure listening system consisted a pair of the original Quad ESL’s, tube electronics, and a Linn Sondek table. Most pro musicians are very concerned with the quality and character of the recorded sound of their guitar, voice, violin, piano, etc. Some of THEM are concerned to the point of obsession---Ry Cooder, for instance. To those musicians and singers, true-to-life timbre/tonality trumps all other concerns in recorded and playback sound quality---dynamics, phrasing, pace, etc., though also very important, take a back seat to the actual sound of their instrument and/or voice. |
Musicians comprise a fairly large and diverse group of people and there will certainly be marked differences of their listening impressions. To suggest that not a single musician would find the Wilson good sounding is an obvious exaggeration to make a point. I’m sure somewhere a musician(s) is enjoying the Wilson speakers. Charles |
Having purchased the Martin Logan ESL from BestBuy, and having listened to all of the other box speakers there from B & W, Definitive Technology and Martin Logan themselves, and also having been listening to box speakers for 40 years by the likes of Advent, Genesis Physics, Infinity and Mission, I can state unequivocally that the ML's imaging, dynamics and tonality far exceed any produced by a driver in a box. I totally get the OP's wife's opinion. |
Do not know what your source is but it may be a little lacking or processed. Some folks are beginning to recognize the musicality of well implemented non oversampling DACs - saying that even the best delta sigma dac implementation(s) sound less natural. Think Schitt |
As an ex-pro musician, I can see where your wife is coming from..a lot of highly touted gear isn't that much of a step up over what is used in the pro audio field. However, I happen to think that most musicians tend to discount one thing....that thing is the room that the gear is placed in. When in the studio, we typically have a different expectation and realization of the sound of our instruments. In the home environment, there are a lot of details that are impacting the sound. I would suggest that you look first to your room before changing anything....see if a speaker change in position is warranted, or possibly some room acoustic treatments. ( I highly recommend these.) |
??? not sure about crappy portable players, but how about $150k of pro audio equipment less instruments? I doubt that it doesn’t sound better than crappy portable player. For casual listening many do not care, but when it comes to recording they obviously do not use portable recorder or mobile phone. Musicians that are being recorded either at their own studios or other professional ones expect certain level of quality and they’re listening to themselves not through the portable player. Musician that is neutral to audiophile equipment can more objectively describe performance differences more fair on the bottom line. |
Playing unplugged around a fire vs playing on stage through monitors or in an acoustic space like a studio cannot be fully replicated through a stereo. There are aspects she recognizes like dynamics, transient speed or tone in the Best Buy stereo but all gear offers a compromise. You like the sound your getting and you enjoy it great. Enjoy the music and forget the microscope. |
stringreen, the most brilliant musician I've ever known said the same to me when he heard his first high-end system (mine) in 1974. He knew the music of his favorite composers (J.S. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven) so well from studying the scores, that whatever his "flip-down" record changer (!) didn't reproduce, his mind filled in. And that was perfectly acceptable to him. Not all of us possess that ability! |
The absolute worst system I ever heard belonged to a musician who played in the National Symphony Orchestra. Ironically perhaps, he was also a dealer for Cello and owned those really gorgeous piano black finish 8 foot tall Cello speakers driven by four (count em) Cello amps and had what inestimate to have been $10K worth of room treatment. Ever since then I just kind of assume musicians are pretty much, well, deaf. |
almarg's first comment touched on a XLR/RCA connection situation that I recently encountered. Following Parasound's method for bi-amping (also Audio Adviser support), I used XLR cables to the first A23 for the mids and tweeters. Then I used the "loop out" RCA connections for the second A23 amp to push the bass. It sounded terrible. I contacted an engineer at Maple Shade Audio and he explained what was going on with my system. It was completely out of phase. XLR connections are faster and say 6db's louder than RCA's. Yes, the bass was weak and very muddy. I had a pair of XLR "Y" cables made and the old JBL's never sounded so good |
I think that to make the generalization that musicians don’t care about the quality of their playback equipment and of reproduced sound in general is nonsense. As to the suggestion that they are “pretty much, well, deaf”, the absurdity of that comment should be obvious and is unbecoming of someone who takes pride in thinking outside the box. Yes, it is absolutely true that many musicians aren’t interested, particularly, in the quality of their stereo systems. There are several reasons for this. One very important reason has already been mentioned and before anyone thinks I just made a contradictory statement consider this: The number of musicians, as a percentage of the general population, who appreciate and own quality stereo equipment is infinitely higher than among non-musicians. As a possible example consider just this thread and the percentage of posters who are also musicians or who have spouses who are musicians. In my professional musician circles there are many who own very nice stereo systems by audiophile standards; a much higher percentage than among my non-musician acquaintances. I think that the misconception comes about because there is an expectation that all or most musicians should be interested in quality personal playback equipment. There are several reasons why this is not always the case: bdp24 and stringreen made excellent points which go to what I think is the most important, and ultimately most useful takeaway for audiophiles. The degree to which the sound of even our most sophisticated stereo systems deviates from the purity of sound in live unprocessed (or minimally so) music is typically and seriously underestimated by most audiophiles. Musicians who are around the unadulterated purity of live music on a daily basis and who, as charles1dad points out, have that sound engrained in their aural point of view are much more prone to be dismissive of ANY equipment since the flaws are heard so readily. To nycjlee’s point, the kind of absolute tonal honesty that many musicians look for in their sound systems may not be what some audiophiles look for. It should also be remembered that the playback equipment used by some musicians which we audiophiles deem “crappy” is still generally better than what those in the general non-audiophile population use and is good enough for the already mentioned and very real ability of musicians to “fill in the blanks” to kick in. In the case of music which is, almost by definiton, amplified and processed it should not be a surprise at all that musicians might have wildly and ”bewildering” different reactions to the same recording; a recording which has been processed and subjected to a “mix” which is the product of the engineer’s aural point of view and not necessarily that of the musicians’. This is not a criticism of that type of music or that type of recording art at all, but what comes into play in these situations is not necessarily that musicians are “deaf to reproduced sound” only that this musical setting opens the door to much more variability. There is another reason why some musicians aren’t particularly interested in high quality equipment and is one that is seldom mentioned. As we all know quality equipment requires a certain amount of time and dedication on the part of the user. Even if an audiophile is not interested in time consuming tweaking of a stereo system a certain amount of time and effort is required in setup and maintenance. Moreover, I think that as concerns this topic it would be useful for we audiophiles to recognize that in addition to the love of music and good sound one of the things that steers us toward this hobby is probably also a personality trait that strives for order and perfection in certain areas. I should probably speak only for myself on that last point, but what I’m getting at is that for many musicians the acquiring, tweaking and maintenance of their instruments can be an all consuming thing; not to mention the countless hours spent working on the craft of music itself. There’s only so many hours in the day and even putting aside the issue of time musicians are able to scratch the “perfection itch” just by doing what they do in their craft. Happy New Year to all! |
Most people do not care that much about playback sound quality or listening as main activity so why would musicians be different? I know a few who are audiophiles and I turned a couple on to this hobby. But over all we are a just a few nuts and expecting others to discover how wonderful our hobby can be is naive at best. |
Hi Frogman, Thanks for sharing your very well presented perspective. I can surely attest to the "engrained" factor of live instruments due to frequent/chronic exposure to them. I’m a former student of the trumpet and still own trumpet and cornet. For 30 years I’ve frequently attended intimate jazz venues that present music that’s often unmiked. Just the pure sound of various instruments filling the room. This type of exposure is very valuable (not to mention extremely enjoyable) as it does seem to train or condition the ears to immediately recognize this unadulterated sound. It sure seems to be "engrained" in my head 😊. Charles |
