stargazer3, when I was in school something was tossed out to me that I have believed ever since: the method behind a composition matters not one bit. All that counts is whether or not the piece is good.
Musician vs. audiophile
We need direction here. My wife, a musician and says my Sophia 3s, powered by BAT 3VK IX tube pre amp and 250w solid state amp sounds flat compared to a freaking Best Buy box store
McIntosh/Martin Logan setup... I can't honestly disagree, specifically when our rig is at low volume. It lacks color and punch, even with 2ea. JL 12" subs... Help me with your recommendation, please!!!
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Czarivey, To answer your question of "name me one musician who likes Wilson speakers, Peter Poltun of the Vienna, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, violinist Wilfried Hedenborg and numerous others. Don't comment on things you know nothing about. Wilson makes great speakers: I owned them for many years. And I play guitar. Not great, but I can play it, and piano (worse, but still, I know what it sounds like). Don't be a wanker. Now back to the original poster: What's the amp? What are the cables? What is your room size and have you treated it acoustically or tested the room acoustics? I assume your wife plays her instrument in your home, so she has an idea of the acoustics, but you haven't stated this, so I don't want to go on assumptions. If your amp has a low impedance output - as I understand it - there could be an electrical mismatch. 100K output is a good match between the preamp and the amp, especially if the preamplifier is tubed. |
P.S: It occurs to me that the 100K input impedance of the BAT amp probably means 50K for each of the two signals in the balanced signal pair, and the measured 14K balanced output impedance of the preamp at 20 Hz (assuming the Six-Pak is not installed) probably means 7K for each signal. So when the subs are connected the one signal in the balanced signal pair that is connected to both the sub and the power amp would be loaded by 50K in parallel with 50K, which is 25K. 25K/7K is a ratio of about 3.6, still not good! Also, there would be a significant imbalance between the impedances of the two signals in the balanced signal pair, given the high output impedance of the preamp, which is also not good. All of this assumes, though, that the balanced and unbalanced outputs of the preamp are not driven by separate and independent output stages. That is the case with most preamps which provide both balanced and unbalanced outputs, but I don’t know for a fact whether or not it is the case here. Regards, -- Al |
Charles1dad 12-30-2017Right you are, Charles, as usual! Repeter, as Charles indicated the input impedance of your amplifier is spec’d at 100K (much higher than the input impedances of the majority of solid state amps). And the input impedances of many and perhaps most JL subs are spec’d at 50K unbalanced/10K balanced. So provided that you are using balanced connections between the preamp and power amp and unbalanced connections to the subs impedance compatibility is probably not the **major** contributor to the issue. Although it nevertheless is probably contributing significantly to the bass issue you described, given the **extremely** high 14K balanced output impedance of the preamp at 20 Hz (assuming the Six-Pak option is not installed), and given that the 100K and 50K loads together constitute a load of 33K. 33K/14K is a ratio of about 2.4, far short of the generally accepted rule of thumb guideline of a minimum ratio of 10 at all audible frequencies. With the consequences of that shortfall being particularly compounded by the wide variation of the preamp’s output impedance over the frequency range. Also, it is still quite possible that if the cables to the subs are particularly long and/or if they have high capacitance per unit length their capacitance could be affecting the upper treble content of the signals received by the BAT power amp. Regarding ... Repeter 12-30-2017... I’m not sure I follow this. I thought the CV-8 is a speaker cable. And what specific model are the Nordost interconnects? Regards, -- Al |
Repeter, I believe most if not all BAT power amplifiers have input impedances of 100K ohms. It seems this shouldn’t be an issue matching their sibbling preamps regarding Al’s earlier caution. You'd think the manufacturer would make these family components compatible. I could be wrong in this assumption. Charles |
I have a friend who studied music in University and composes classical pieces. When he hears a classical piece of music, he appreciates how it was composed, the methods used by the composer in writing this piece. When I talk about HiFi he covers his ears, when I explained about PRAT he thought I was utterly mad. We both like music also classical music, if I like a particular piece of music its purely from the music, if he likes the same piece of music, its because of the music and how it was written. He is not so concerned how the music is presented (HiFi) but much more interested as to the music itself and how it was composed. Often he would say 'notice how the composer expanded on that one note or theme' I sometimes think about famous musicians of all genres, apart from the recording equipment used in studios do they posses HiFi at home. Does Paul McCartney have a state of the art Ayre system at home or does Mick Jagger have a Naim statement at home or are musicians not so bothered about HiFi...? |
Hi All, Well... I appreciate everyone's input, from family counseling to power at my 110v outlets! I'll take a first crack at delivering technical info so questions are answered; The Power amp is a solid state VK-250, fed by a VK-3IX with Sovtek tubes and no Bat Pak. Cabling from pre to power amp would be Nordost. Could these long (2 meter) flat silver (Ag) play into flat/dull performance at low volume? FYI, I used them to drive my Sophia 3s and Geoff Poor (BAT) recommended the massively improved Audioquest CV-8s. So.. Could driving my power amp with these be a weakness? Onward, The speakers are in a decent location each spaced 1 meter away from side walls and 3 meters from a irregular back wall, room in front of them is large and very broken up. I've dialed in the angle and distances. When listening anywhere near a central listening perspective and moderately high volume (above 20 on power amp) the presence,sound stage and fidelity is amazing, however, no punch and bass thickness without the JL's involved. Thanks for now all, I'll be studying input with more detail and return with specific responses to valued posts. Happy New Year |
We need direction here. My wife, a musician and says my Sophia 3s, powered by BAT 3VK IX tube pre amp and 250w solid state amp sounds flat compared to a freaking Best Buy box store McIntosh/Martin Logan setup... I can't honestly disagree, specifically when our rig is at low volume. It lacks color and punch, even with 2ea. JL 12" subs... Help me with your recommendation, please!!! @OP Repeter if you live in an area of the US that is at least 15 degrees Celsius at night (right now); I am willing to come there and fix your problem for free, ......but you will need to cover my flight, room and board, and .........."Misc" expenses. 8^0 fwiw - you need to live south of Nashville. I got invited by my daughter to go listen to country music on New Years Eve. Her fav Keith Urban + others. I checked the weather and (minus) -3 degrees C - no thank u. |
Odd that the OP has not chimed in again at all What started out as a fairly interesting technical thread with some great posts seems to have devolved into more one of semantics and opinions, not that there is anything wrong with that of course. OP may be genuinely busy as it that time of year. Does remind me though of throwing a bone out and letting the dogs fight over it......... |
Imo, the correct solution; time for a hybrid speaker system. Consider a hybrid horn along the lines of the PureAudioProject Trio15 Horn 1 (reviewed). You will not find agreement on sound between the dynamic and panel sound, likely�. A hybrid can get you there. It's not a matter of sound quality�, but technology employed. It has not so much to do with the subs, amps, etc. YMMV The entire system can be taken up several levels of sound quality, if you wish to pursue it. If you approach this with the correct perspective, you can achieve far more satisfaction for both of you. |
As a retired classical pianist and audiophile, what I look for is a natural presentation. I am not obsessive to the point I must have the most expensive, or best of the best equipment. The audiophile in me wants to obsess over the sound, but the musician in me simply wants to sit down and have an experience of the music that closely resembles what I have heard in live situations. I think audiophiles look for different parameters than musicians do: Agonizing over parameters that musicians don’t care about. A musician realizes there is no “one” sound of a performance. Yes, bass may not be “tight” in certain venues. Similarly, “highs” may be compromised. There is no holy grail of one “perfect” sound. So, if a recording is not ideal by audiophile standards, a musician may accept it because it better transmits the musical message, even if it’s not acceptable by audiophile standards. |
I may have missed it, but what type of music does your wife play? As a student of Yehudi Menuhin (while he was still alive), as well as some great jazz violinists, the big problem for me is getting midrange frequencies accurate with great resolution. When I say "midrange", I do not want to fall into the trap of how many frequencies can dance on the head of a pin in the midrange (e.g., I have read comments in TAC, Stereophile and elsewhere about "upper midrange", "lower midrange", etcetera). Bass and treble are much easier for audio speakers (systems) to reproduce, but the analytic separation of strings in orchestral music seems quite challenging for most audio systems. If I was still playing the violin 6 - 8 hours a day, especially during performances, the last thing I would want at the end of the day would be to listen to more music, unless it was more rehearsal time. -Gerry |
Voicing is what it’s called and what you are up against. It takes a lot of thought, time, money, trial, and error to get a system to work well together. That includes the room too. Personally I’ve experienced similar issues when moving to a new home. In my situation I bought another system that I run in another room. I plan on moving eventually to a place where I can adapt or build a proper listening room. I think that we all would like that. Best of luck Keep in mind that audiophiles listen and consume the product. Musicians, when they listen, spend a lot of time thinking about how they will produce the product. I have watched this happen dozens of times over the decades. |
As to musicians and possibility of being tone deaf I think Beethoven said it best 'Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy. Music is the electrical soil in which the spirit lives, thinks and invents.' I think he has proved admirably that even having lost most of his hearing he created proven master pieces in music. |
Since someone else has already noted Jim Boyk's work, I'll note that, in additional to some very excellent recordings, he has a couple of resources that might be of interest to this group: The first is "To Hear Ourselves as Others Hear Us". While primarily designed as a way for musicians to prepare for either practice or performance, Jim's stellar advice might be helpful in understanding how and why musicians (often) tend to hear differently that others. Here's a link: http://www.performancerecordings.com/tohear.html The second, which might be more useful for/interesting to some here, is a CD entitled "Demonstration of Stereo Microphone Technique". Other than a movie made by the Baldwin Piano Company a couple of decades ago, this is the only readily available source that I know of for getting a reasonably decent understanding of stereo microphone technique without investing a fortune in either time, money, or effort. (Lots of YouTube stuff around this. These two sources are unique.) Here's a link: http://shop.performancerecordings.com/product.sc;jsessionid=C0266FF96AD5EFB667F8CBAAF16F7554.p3plqsc... Also, and only FWIW, in over 50 years of doing "concert" piano and studio recording work for a host of pianists, Jim is one of a handful of pianists who has a level of perception and control that allows him to assess and deal with incredibly minute variations in tuning, regulation, and voicing. He brings that knowledge and experience to his writing and teaching in very accessible yet complete ways. Hope that this information may be helpful. Kind regards. |
I'm a life-long active musician - big band swing trumpet player: http://hornsaplenty.org/ My wife is a professional classical violinist http://temescalquartet.com/ We've both acoustic musicians and so we mostly listen to acoustic music and have a preference for real instruments to sound like themselves. If I were you, I'd use acoustic instruments as a reference. What finally brought our system fully together was adding in a miniDSP DDRC24 active crossover and DSP EQ. After measuring the room and impulse response with the included DIRAC software, I set the target response to the Harman EQ curve. That brought it all together and gave the system that final bit of true naturalness. It took just the right amount of edge off the violin upper register and evened out the low end. I don't know any of your gear, but you should expect a Best Buy demo system to be tweaked in such a way that it makes you go "Wow" without actually being a natural presentation. Remember that stores like Best Buy sell the sizzle, not the steak. |
I agree with Stevecham. If you are using subs they need to be timed correctly with your mains. Most mains react a fraction of a second faster. than the subs. Use a processor or cable lenth to correct this problem. When you got it right your bass will pop. I have a 4 millisecond delay to my mains in my system. Bestbuy in my city has a Magnolia store inside select Bestbuy that is separate operation that carry high end equipment. |
trelja, I couldn’t agree more. Love the ESL57’s for their amazing midrange purity. I don’t own Quads, but that level of midrange and high frequency correctness is the reason that I put up with my Stax ESL F-81’s maddening low end and SPL limitations; amazingly realistic timbre which rivals the Quads, imo. Driven by tube mono’s in many respects they make some of the most realistic sounds I’ve ever heard from a sound system. |
If you do not like the sound of McIntosh and Martin Logan then you are in the minority. I loved them when hearing a demo. As a musician your wife has tuned ears. I am the same. Not only the music but the accuracy of instruments sounding as live. Violin cat gut vibrating cello string. Can you hear the resonation of the wood chaber of the instrument. Other people listen differently. I thought a pair of B & W 683s I heard at best buy were harsh in the highs and had no dynamics in the bass. Could be the recording? The demo room? Many people like them but I did not. So I fall in your catagoy there. |
Just switch out the speakers. The magic may not be from the Mac. I used to sell audio and was free to audition speakers at home when the store was closed. Same preamp and amp,,, but each speaker sounded entirely different. The Martin Logan's may be the magic there. But, then again. It could be your room as well. Try the speakers alone first would be my suggestion. And, yes. I am a musician. ;) |
@bdp24 "James Boyk, Pianist In Residence at the California Institute of
Technology (where he teaches), is a performing musician, recording
engineer at his label Performance Recordings, equipment reviewer, and
long-time audiophile. In one talk he gave, he described how the timbre
and tonality of his piano changes as a long-held notes/chord fades to
silence, the relative strengths of the fundamentals and all their
overtones changing as the notes fade. When he evaluates equipment, James
listens for the ability of the product under test to reproduce that
changing timbre he knows is contained in his recordings of he playing
his piano. Wow! Last I heard, his monitor and pleasure listening system
consisted a pair of the original Quad ESL’s, tube electronics, and a
Linn Sondek table." That's pretty much where I ended up...a tube amplifier driving a pair of Quad ESL57s. Like James Boyk, timbre / tonality can make it or break it for me. I try listen to sounds I'm completely familiar with, and a component that alters that loses me. Don't want to risk kicking any sacred cows, but some of the most highly esteemed components sound quite wrong. I will say that the Quads do (far) better at that more than any other loudspeaker I've come across |
This is all wonderfully academic for sure, but i have heard Wilson speakers sound sublime and quite wonderful at times, and dreadful at other times, depending more on EXTERNAL FACTORS than an internal flaw in the speakers themselves. As for musicians having a different sense of what sounds more like the real thing or not, I cannot agree less. If they just don't care due to their stubborness and/or narrow point of view, that's separate from knowing good and well what sounds natural and what doesn't. The 1st time i heard a good pair of acoustic suspension speakers back at the ripe old age of 9 or 10, i knew that i was hearing bass that went deeper, far less harmonic distortion, and highs that were more open and airy. Was it Majico good or B&W good? We can argue over THAT, but let's not kid ourselves over the basics. The poster & wife simply have issues with the end results they are getting when they sit down to listen to music, and a trustworthy audio shop (or a capable friend) could help them out to get better sound regardless. And furthermore, they have speakers that cost an arm and a leg to start with, along with other esoteric components. |
My step father was a musician as well as a uncle in the family . Neither one cared about hifi systems . The uncle told me he did his listening in his Honda SUV . i'm sure he opted for the upgraded sound system . No speakers in his house however . He is a piano/keyboardist . My passed stepfather was a guitar/ singer in many bands he formed . Mostly christian rock. Again he had no speakers in his house except a portable boombox he listened to Dire Straits cd's on while picture framing as a business . This has lead me to believe musicians do not care for hifi . Never asked them why but it is odd to me . |
Pure bs about musicians being deaf. Who picks out the equipment that the musician uses? Would I ask a guitar player to pick my cymbal array or would a piano player ask a drummer if the piano is tuned? I know what a ride cymbal sounds like, I could ask 100,000 non drummers and they wouldn’t have a clue. If musicians are deaf, why do guitar players change guitars out almost every song? Why do some bands use Marshall amps and others use fender tube amps? It all makes a difference. What I don’t get is that you can go to a outside jazz concert, say acoustic alchemy is playing, and everything sounds fantastic. The group is using $1000 fender amps, and maybe the sound system that everything is playing thru costs a few thousand $$$$, why do audiophiles think they need $200,000 worth of equipment to recapture this sound? The specs on fender amps/Marshall amps are very limiting, but in our dedicated audio rooms, the specs of our speakers and amps are much better than what the source was. I go to a lot of concerts, some are fantastic sounding while others I would rather be at home listening to this group thru my system. |
**** Surely there must be musicians who are tone deaf. You yourself said they use ear plugs sometimes. Yet they still play on. One assumes they just watch fhe director and hope for the best. **** I really am surprised at your apparent cluelessness about this subject; I expected more. I would be glad to educate you if it interests you, but a certain amount of openness to being mistaken is necessary. Do you even know what exactly you mean by “tone deaf”? |
Just out of curiosity, do orchestra musicians or any musicians wear ear plugs whilst playing?Surely you've seen lots of musicians wearing IEMs...they provide substantial SPL attenuation while still allowing the players to hear themselves and the rest of the group. Peter Townsend was one of the first rock musicians to acknowledge significant hearing damage but others reportedly include John Entwhistle, Neil Young, Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck and more I am sure there are others. I have a friend whose tinnitus is so painful that he can no longer play. There is actually a web site called Hearing Education and Awareness for Rockers (HEARNET.COM). |
I was not (rpt not) being facetious. As far as musicians being required to have “good ears” in order to play, I doubt it. Surely there must be musicians who are tone deaf. You yourself said they use ear plugs sometimes. Yet they still play on. One assumes they just watch fhe director and hope for the best. |
I have to assume that you are being facetious and striving for humor; I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt anyway. Surely, you must understand that if musicians were all deaf they could not make the beautiful music and sounds that they do. Re earplugs: of course, in situations that call for them due to high SPL’s. Many orchestral players who sit in close proximity to brass and percussion wear custom plugs for certain passages in the music that ramp down volume without altering tonal balance much. |
Working musicians likely can't afford Wilsons…so there's that. I work with various musicians in my live sound mixer sideline, and have known plenty of 'em as I've been a professional musician for over 5 decades, and I'm not deaf…yet…most don't involve themselves too much in high end audio (although there are serious exceptions here and there) for reasons explained elsewhere, nor do musicians necessarily hear things better than anyone else…they may simply hear things differently relative to what they do. I've known amazing instrumentalists who have told me they rarely listen to the style of music or the instrument they play (cool and interesting) and others who listen to nothing else. Like people in general, generalizations don't work generally. |
Very interesting topic. Props to the OP. Frogman said: The degree to which the sound of even our most sophisticated stereo systems deviates from the purity of sound in live unprocessed (or minimally so) music is typically and seriously underestimated by most audiophiles. Musicians who are around the unadulterated purity of live music on a daily basis and who, as charles1dad points out, have that sound engrained in their aural point of view are much more prone to be dismissive of ANY equipment since the flaws are heard so readily. Stringreen said: most of my professors had crappy portable players. When I asked them if they had better at home....they all said that whatever is missing they insert the necessary sounds. bdp24 said: whatever his "flip-down" record changer (!) didn't reproduce, his mind filled in. And that was perfectly acceptable to him. Not all of us possess that ability! +1000!!! I am not a musician and my 65 y.o. ears have significant deficits due to too much R&R "in my yout". Yet I could immediately tell live music vs. reproduction over the crowd noise and echoing acoustic halfway up a staircase in Grand Central Station or as I opened the car door in the street with a live jazz guitarist playing through a small amp in a friend's back yard. And then of course, as several have noted, we ALL have our prejudices about what we listen for and what is most important to us. To the OP, have you talked about what she finds appealing about one or off-putting about the other? I imagine it would depend on what instrument(s) and what type of music a musician plays most. I would guess that a percussionist would find PRAT and bass response to be very important while a pianist might be most influenced by attack, sustain, decay which they can all modulate, and also even response across the spectrum as their instrument covers such a wide range. |
Hi Frogman, Thanks for sharing your very well presented perspective. I can surely attest to the "engrained" factor of live instruments due to frequent/chronic exposure to them. I’m a former student of the trumpet and still own trumpet and cornet. For 30 years I’ve frequently attended intimate jazz venues that present music that’s often unmiked. Just the pure sound of various instruments filling the room. This type of exposure is very valuable (not to mention extremely enjoyable) as it does seem to train or condition the ears to immediately recognize this unadulterated sound. It sure seems to be "engrained" in my head 😊. Charles |
Most people do not care that much about playback sound quality or listening as main activity so why would musicians be different? I know a few who are audiophiles and I turned a couple on to this hobby. But over all we are a just a few nuts and expecting others to discover how wonderful our hobby can be is naive at best. |
