More watts or better power ?

I think you are doing great and the only reason I'd change anything was if you found a better sounding amp or speakers.  Keep in mind that with a small room and limited locations once you have a good balance of bass to mid and treble you really can mess things up by changing speakers.

If you want to consider a power conditioner though, for a small bedroom system the Furman PST-8 is a cost effective and good sounding solution.

https://amzn.to/3Abh9w4

Do you feel that the sound from the speakers is thin?  Especially at moderate volume?  If your sound is lacking weight, then an amp upgrade would make sense.  But this sill be very obvious.  

Those are very good speakers.  You can change them but you risk upsetting the dynamics of the system and creating a cascade of issues.  

It sounds like you don't have any line conditioning in place and that is probably something worth looking at.  Furman makes nice products.  I think for the money, Puritan might be the best on the market.  A PSM 136 is not crazy expensive ($1600) and will do a lot to improve sound and comes with a pretty good power cord.  

Are you using the stock tubes in the BHK or have your rolled in NOS tubes?  That will have a shockingly large impact and be at most ~$250.  

Those would be the places I would start.  

Unless you hear some problems I would keep what I have. Pass is hard to beat. I think in some of his writing  Nelson talks against power conditioning for his amps.

Erik, I do like my speakers, and finding a better set, in a smaller size, may be too much effort. I do have good bass and treble, with the speakers alone, I am playing with a sub, just for fun. 

Verdant, no, the speakers actually have good balance. I do not have any power protection or conditioning,  I'll take a look at Furman. I did roll the tubes on the BHK Pre last year, and it did make a nice improvement. 

John, I'll have to research Nelson Pass on power conditioners. I wonder why he would object? 

Thanks guys, per my OP, my system sounds very good. I was just wondering if upgrades would make a meaningful impact. At my level of mid-fi, it really starts becoming a matter of diminishing returns on investment. I think I'll look at some surge protection and conditioning and maybe put my money into a new phono cart for the Concept :) 

Well, I’m going to have to say that a 25 watt power amp is holding you back. I have a pair of 25 watt mono block tube amps that sound very nice but they each have huge power supplies and giant capacitors. 25 watts of SS power is not that much. A beefy amp would add some weight and fullness to your system. After that the next step is loudspeakers but you’ll have the power drive anything once you upgrade your power amp.

Sonus says minimum power for your loudspeaker is 35-100 watts. That is typically the 8ohm specification so you are below the recommended spec. 

Normally I think more power more better. But that is a sweet and outstanding amp. Given your system and location, I would try power conditioning to all but the amp. 

Do you even know if you have an inordinate amount of noise on your line? Personally I'd replace the preamp - never have been impressed with the BHK. The Pass amps tend to run dead quiet and have excellent noise rejection.

What are your listening habits? (How loud do you listen?)  Personally, I would go the conditioning route,and also play with cabling a bit.  I also have a small main listening room,and a small to medium secondary room. I don't really care to make my ears bleed at this point in my life,so low power class A amps work perfect for me. 

Thanks......

Russ, I’m not saying my system is lacking and being held back, just curious about peoples thoughts on more head room vs cleaner power. The XA25 is rated at 50wpc at 4 ohms, which the Amators are. The amp is class A / AB and weighs about 50 pounds. It’s pretty beefy for a 25 watt amp.

Three, I don’t know if I have bad power, how would I monitor and trend power in ? I like the Preamp, so not looking to replace that.

GHD, I am thinking more, that the amp is a good fit.

Rocray, I listen at moderate levels and crank it on occasion. Mix of rock and jazz, Pink Floyd, Horace Silver, Art Pepper, Mark Knoffler, Bill Evens, even some B52s, Pixies and Echo and the Bunnymen, (Green Day tomorrow at Fenway :) .... Although some of those 80s recordings are shrill.

Tvad, I’ve only had the BHK Preamp in the system for about 18 months and I am liking it, especially the ability to tube roll. I say mid-fi based on the craziness I see in other systems. I’m lucky to have what I have, I’m in my 50s and my hearing is not what it once was, so do I need a $10K amp? probably not.

Check the Stereophile review of the XA25 to see how many watts it can really put out (in AB).  Given your speakers, the size of your room, and your volume levels, it is more than sufficient.  Plus, at least some owners familiar with PASS gear would pick the XA25 as the sweetest of all his amps.

I'm really not sure what itch it is you're trying to scratch.  A current deficiency in the system?  Just the need to try something new?

Adding a Puritan PSM 156 to my system made an audible improvement (unlike many other power conditioners).

If you just want to experiment, how about some Silversmith Fidelium speaker cables?

"...Russ, I’m not saying my system is lacking and being held back, just curious about peoples thoughts on more head room vs cleaner power. The XA25 is rated at 50wpc at 4 ohms, which the Amators are. The amp is class A / AB and weighs about 50 pounds. It’s pretty beefy for a 25 watt amp..."

I believe the Pass amp is a fine unit and that even at 25wpc is producing enough power, if you are happy with it’s output. What a beefy power amp does for you is mostly in the frequency extremes. A big power amp adds weight to the music, even at low volumes, that’s what they do best. It would be a solid move up. I’m not suggesting that you are in need of more power but you are in need of the sonic change a powerful amp can supply. My LS50s sound way better with the Parasound A21 than they do with my little tube integrated and I don’t play loud. The other change you can make is better loudspeakers, that will also get you in the right direction.

P.S. You have a fine system so you'll need a big change to advance it to the next level, just saying. 

Thanks Twoleftears, as I said, my system sounds very good. I was just wondering, in my system, if upgrading to a higher watt amp could make a noticeable difference. Or at that cost, would I look at line conditioning as a similar upgrade instead? 

Regarding speaker cables, I assume that speaker cables have a lesser effect on sound quality than interconnects. And because I have to run my speaker cables down into the basement and then up on the other side of the room (20' - 25') I have not invested in high end speaker cables. If I put my amp near the speakers then I would need 20'-25' interconnects, which does not seem a better solution. 

Russ, I agree and that was my initial thought process. Does it make sense to go with more watts, having a system that sounds good now. Could I really take it to the next level with a bigger amp? Based on comments here, and my own thoughts, probably not cost effective. Like you said, the change would have to be big and it's not worth the $ at this point. I'll look at protecting my gear with isolation and conditioning. 
   PS, I sold my Parasound A21 to a friend and he's running it with a pair of Spatial Labs M3s. It sounds great, great amp. 

How about better speaker placement/room enhancement?

You're realistically only using single digit wattage, nowhere near the amp specs.

I think this article will be helpful.  Certainly relevant to your discussion title.  
https://www.primaluna-usa.com/less-power-more-bass

If you in fact need to do anything at all, consider power quality over more wattage.

Tablejockey's comment is on the money.  I just did the experiment outlined in the article with a 35 watt amp driving 86 db sensitivity speakers.  Only takes 4 watts to arrive at a 92 db level. As it turns out, for me, 92 db constant white noise at 1 meter is WAAAY louder than how I listen even given my listening position is 3-4 meters (not 1) from the speakers.  

Mark, you don't need more watts, unless you notice a lack of low-end at your typical listening level. That's a sweet amp that produces high current which is what you really want in your system.

The only addition I would recommend is power conditioning/surge protection. You'll get lots of recommendations here, so you should state your budget. Only sources should go into a conditioner, since most are current-limiting. That means a high-current amp like yours can lose dynamics due to the filtering used to lower RFI/EMI and noise from the mains. The result of power conditioning is a lower noise-floor which will reveal more detail, better imaging, and air around instruments.
Anyway, a Pass Labs amp does not need a PC, it is designed to reject common noise.

Based on Stereophile measurements of the XA25, I would say that the amp is good for up to 30 watts per channel clean.  Anything above that will start to have distortion/clipping problems (not that you would really notice any difference between 25 and 30 watts, lol).

That being said, it takes a very beefy power supply and large heatsinks to run a stereo amp at 25 watts per channel "full Class A".  That amp is going to have extremely clean and full sound.  This Pass XA25 has a nice mellow full sound.  Very nice to listen to, but it is somewhat laid back when compared to more dynamic amps.

The BHK 250 will likely be able to give you slightly stronger deep bass strength, with it being a 250 watt per channel Class AB amp with good size power supplies.  The BHK is a cleaner and more neutral sounding amp than the Pass XA25, but it is still mild sounding (most likely due to the stock Genelex Gold Lion tubes).  It's likely that you can get this amp to sound more exciting with PSVANE or Electro-Harmonix input tubes.

I'm not sure that you would really notice or care about the slight increase in deep bass strength, since it's a 6" bookshelf speaker, but I could be wrong.  Going from XA25 to BHK 250 is really about a sonic signature change.

You say you have a small house and the system is in a bedroom, so I'm going to assume a smallish bedroom.  You have a lot of equipment in a small room.  Can you provide a picture?  Why not tidy things up an get an integrated amp with built-in digital and phono?  To match your current setup it's going to be expensive, something like CH, Gryphon or ASR.  Think about it.

And because I have to run my speaker cables down into the basement and then up on the other side of the room (20' - 25') I have not invested in high end speaker cables.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

For the money your best single investment would be shorten the cable runs and use a lot better cable.  You can do what your doing just fine.

The difference in SQ between 1/2  meter and 8 meters is really not that noticeable with so so cable. BUT with any type of GOOD cable, it's a big difference.

1/2 meter of copper zip cord vs 8 meters of high quality woven 24 conductor, (silver over copper, OCC copper clad) cable. I KNOW there is a big difference in sound quality.

One step closer and a lot less money is 1 - 3 meter high quality speaker cable vs the 8 meters of cable you're using..

I always thought I can't stand seeing cabling running everywhere. After the eye opening experience 40 years ago, I change my mind. I used good cables and short runs because I had to at the time.. Working on the house.  From then on everything under 10 feet, unless it was a bass bandpass or a sub.. It's the difference in mid fi vs hi fi yet the same exact gear...

I chose to move the gear and planned that way from then on.. Crazy thing that is what led to a 10,000lb (24"x18"x18ft) slab at one end of a bedroom, that is just now being converted 39 years later to one of two sound room this one with built traps and 3 foot cable runs. That would have cost me 10k now. It was 250.00 back them. 2-3 yards of concrete and rebar.

HT cable length, who cares? It's a sound effect deal anyways.. 

Regards

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipMrkGumpa2q7ASwUsVyri9wAEshcoOYyv2_9liw

Ok, so the shirts over the components is my wife covering the blinking lights at night.... not a total slob. 

Thanks Oldhvymech, I posted a picture above. I can't run the cables in front of the doorway. But I do agree, maybe spend the money and get 25' of better quality speaker cable. 

Thanks Ghosthouse, looks like a good read 

There is a good article with Pass Nov 1 2018 issue of Stereophile in the Jim Austin article. If you Google Nelson Pass on power conditioning you should reach it. It's basically already done in his equipment.

Mark, if you plug your subwoofer into a preamp output it will relieve some of the bass load from the Pass.
Set the crossover and the sub will supplement the bass and provide low-end extension.

Jonto, thanks more good reading
Lowrider, thanks I have the unbalanced out to the amp, and then the balanced out to the sub.

I have found that you can never have too much power.  I would look into one of Nelson’s more powerful amps.  I wouldn’t waste money on different cables, the change will be subtle at best. Nelson Pass advises against using a power conditioner with his amps. He has already addressed it in the build of his amps.  I would move up to a 150wpc in the Pass line.  By staying with the same brand, the synergy shouldn’t change.  

Replace your DAC.  That is the biggest limiting factor in your system.

Happy Listening.

The only reason to upgrade the amplifier is if you do not have enough volume level for the speakers otherwise you will be wasting your money buying better power cords/ speaker wire/ power conditioning will only improve the power you have they will not increase it. if you are happy with the sound and the volume this is the way to go, but if you notice volume limitations a bigger amplifier will help for sure but then you will probably reach the limit of the small speakers quickly, which means a larger pair of speakers. It all means that the problem of upgrading is complex and expensive, but if you buy a good used amplifier and speakers you can save a lot of money.

Bigkidz, you don't like the Yiggi ? :)
I have not done enough research on DACs to make the upgrade. Maybe over the winter I'll start. At this point I don't know what makes a good DAC, a good DAC.  I know you can by a thumb drive DAC for $69 and then you can multiply that by 100.........

Thanks Speakermaster, I'm not having issues at higher volumes, I can play it as loud as I can stand for a short time and still have no loss.

    Thanks for all the input people, this entire thread was prompted by an email from PS Audio. Because I have been a customer in the past, they were offering a nice discount on some of their products. I was looking at taking advantage of this, but per the general consensus, you guys have talked me off the ledge.

    Like I said, the system sounds very good, so maybe to enjoy the smaller tweaks and adjustments of systems is a better plan of attack. I'll be looking at power components, and maybe some new speaker cables.

I'll bet it sounds very good. And since the sub is hooked up, you must be hearing some well balanced music. From the
comments you've made, you shouldn't be worried about power output anymore.

I'd vote for better dac and or nice silver interconnects. They will allow you to really see the potential in the bigger components, in my opinion. 

Mark that hi-fi rig is impressive. I’ve never heard PS Audio BHK in person but many recommend very highly and the designer is something of an audio legend I understand?

50 watts of tube power can be a lot with big power supplies storing massive joules of energy.

Your front end components / amps are excellent, and you have a very good DAC in the Schitt Yggdrisil.

You ask, what would be a better investment (most bang for the buck) into the system as it is now, considering being in the bedroom of a small house. You suggest replacing the XA25 with a higher watt amp, or a power conditioner (PS Audio Power Plant II?) Or possibly upgrade the Minima Amator (which are sounding very good) to another set of speakers.

You said the speakers sound very good. What is the sound, as it is, lacking? What do you wish it had more of?

do you feel your power is dirty? If not then investing in small footprint full range speakers instead of a conditioner would probably be a better investment. If they are 88db - 90db efficient for the smaller space 50watts should drive those will no problems at all. As it is a bedroom that may be smaller, then mini-monitors are more practical of course. If your speaker cables and interconnects are sounding good I see not reason to spend the extra dollars there yet. Although i have found the right speaker wires and interconnects to help improve detail retrieval and create a bigger more balanced sound.

More power definitely, NO question.

The Pass amp is way more powerful than its rating. It is 25 watts class A but it then switches to class AB and is good for over 70 watts.

We need to get some facts straight here… the XA25 shoots WAY above its ratings, as is typical of Pass Class A amps. The class a’s run very high biased mostly pure class A to the clipping point. Here are the actual measurements for that amp…

“Pass Labs specifies the XA25's output power as 25Wpc into 8 ohms and 50Wpc into 4 ohms (both equivalent to 14dBW). However, as you can see in figs. 4 and 5, the amplifier exceeded its specified power output at the clipping point, which we define as when the THD+noise equals 1%. At that THD+N percentage the XA25 delivered 80Wpc into 8 ohms (19dBW) and 130Wpc into 4 ohms (18.1dBW). It appears from the shape of the traces in these graphs that Pass specifies the XA25's power as when the THD+N is close to 0.01%”

The amp is not an issue with your speakers. Look into other areas, cables, room, placement etc, as others have mentioned.

A used PS Audio P5 regenerator made a huge difference to my system, but our power is awful.  Usually when I look, incoming AC is about 17% total harmonic distortion, and outgoing is about 1.5%.  The wife and sons noticed a difference.

What a crock of sh*t!  If you follow all this advice, you'd: replace pre-amp, amp, speakers, speaker cable, interconnects, add a power conditioner/regenerator, DAC, ... Would you be any happier?  Would you enjoy your listening sessions any more?  If you do make any changes, make them one at a time, giving yourself sufficient time in between changes to understand the differences you have achieved.  Fun hobby, but sometimes we stress unnecessarily!

marktheshark OP
PS Audio BHK Preamp to a Pass Labs XA25, Class A, Sonus Faber Minima Amator II
What would be a better investment (most bang for the buck)

Sell both of these and get an Integrated 120w Gryphon Diablo 120 it has the Class-A sound of the XA25 but with heap more wattage and grunt (current) also.

https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/integrated-amplifiers/diablo-120/

https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/integrated-amplifiers/gryphon-diablo-300-integrated-amplifier/

Cheers George

I think your Amp is probably a good match and if you like your speakers don't change them, they are going to define the sound of your system more than anything else. There are 2 places I'd consider an upgrade in your system. I'd definitely add some power treatmenr. I purchased a PS Audio power plant as was absolutely blown away by the difference. I got a power plant premier on the used market for 800 or so. Great investment. And then I see you have a digital and analog front end. Which do you use more? If the answer is analog, I might step up the turntable. It's a great high end entry unit but if you went with the next in their line like a performance DC, tracer arm, and maybe a Hana ML1200 you'd really be stepping it up. 

First, your setup is not midfi !!!
it is a quality small high-end system.
Biggest change for you would probably be a better tube pre amp, or maybe check out more speakers in your room, your power amp is very good.

Very nice collection you have. Unless you need more volume, nonononono

Unless that stylus is worn, the only thing I would be tempted to do is find a sub (or pair of small subs).

Who aligned the cartridge? Do you have alignment skills and tools? If not, research, learning and a few tools would lead to a nice achievement.

How big is the room? Listening position to appreciate imaging? 

Tubes: a simple tube tester is a nice thing to have.

Mark, your terrific system is something to envy. My young man systems in high end were a lot bumpier than that.
You're feeling something’s missing and from everything you say, the parts are all good. You might not be a believer in cables and wires, neither was I, however, a dealer friend loaned me a higher set of Van den Hull speaker cables and an expensive digital cable that I don’t remember because I was one of these non-cable believers and the sound of my then well-worn system, all of a sudden, gave me funny feelings in my chest. Maybe you have a dealer friend who has some ridiculous cables that you can try. You might be surprised.

I see those speakers have a rear port. not knowing where your speakers are relative to walls/corners, they may be making more bass, but smearing things a speck.

While trying a sub, you might temporarily block the ports, just to learn something, it takes patience and time with familiar music.

the speakers will not be trying to make low bass after the crossover for the sub, so they will sound different anyway, so I would only mess with the ports AFTER I found a sub that I might keep.

My office, my old velodyne servo 1200 sub fell apart. I tried a single inexpensive sub, got lucky: not to add bass as much as to keep things from feeling a bit thin. Volume just enough, not aware of it unless I turn it off. That’s all you need to make a small system sound beyond small.

If you ever go for another preamp/integrated, I advise having pre-out main in. then you can send the primary need for power to the sub’s amp. both the amp and the speakers get a break.

You might try the monitor audio platinum 100 Gen 2
,I believe they are a better than the 
sonas Faber.

my experience with wattage is speaker amp matching.  While waiting for new speakers, tried my esoteric class a amp with paradigm speakers.they have excellent bass response using small bass drivers.  With the esoteric the current must have shunted to the midrange and tweeters and was awful.  With my new Fyne which have larger
cone drivers the sq is beyond description.  Same sensitivity and resistance but clearly different electrical behaviors.  

It sounds like you have the itch to upgrade not because you need to but you kind of want to. With that, it is more pressure testing each component and finding the weakest link in the chain.  You have a great system that is better than many so you can stand pat.  

And incidentally, what is the old saying about opinions?

To me, lack of a conditioner is first.  I legit think that will help reduce your noise floor and expand your soundstage.  Doesn't need to be crazy expensive to get the big benefit.   A Panamax or Furman will get you there while some of the higher end units will deliver incremental benefit.  I would spend less than $2K if I were you.  And incidentally, just because your amp won't benefit from a conditioner, doesn't mean your other components won't.  DACs and phono stages may not be high current, but the circuits are delicate and small variations can impact sound.  

Second, your DAC is very good for the money but, improvement can be had.  I think stepping up to a better DAC will give you a leap forward in terms of resolution and image.  I have a few customers who have that DAC and side-by-side comparisons with others have delivered surprising results.  

Third, cables are worth considering.  They can be borrowed for a test. ICs, power cables and speaker cables can make a difference.  Which has the biggest impact will vary from system to system.  In my main system, I upgraded from a modest pair of Kimber Kable speaker cables to Audioquest Robin Hood and it was like I got a new component.  It was huge.  In my other system, the same exchange made basically no difference.  The swap from Kimber Tonik to Audioquest Water was big.  Switch from Water to Fire was minimal.  You get my point. 

I have heard some extraordinary changes because of cables.  Both good and bad.  I get a lot of cable trades and some very expensive cables have had shockingly bad impacts on my system and some modest priced cables have been surprisingly good.  Borrow some and see if you like it.  Keep an open mind in both directions.  Expensive does not mean better.  

Your preamp, amp and your speakers are all very good.  I can recommend better but I am not sure you will get a big gain without spending, and I don't mean the $3-4K it would take to trade up to a PS Audio BHK 250.  Simply adding power can help with many speakers, but I am thinking that is not the case with those speakers.  I would focus on quality and PS Audio, Pass and Sonus Faber are very high quality. 

Incidentally, no, I don't think your system is mid-fi.   If you want to spend $10K+ for any of those components, yes, you will see some gains.  There may be some diamonds to be found a lower prices but not obvious ones that are better to me.  

Hope this helps and good luck

If I read your OP correctly your sole reason for asking is that the rated amp power is at the low end of the recommended range for your speakers.  Sorry…forget that and just enjoy the music.  You have an excellent system, well chosen to provide a quality listening experience in your small bedroom.  And yes, if you have to tinker, get some high quality jacketed CL rated speaker wire.  Transparent HP122 or similar.  You’ll have to crimp and solder terminals after you pull it through the basement though.