More watts or better power ?

Have you done a room frequency analysis with a reference mic and then adjusted the EQ to get the vibe you desire?

Hi Op,
I don't usually post here, but from reading through this thread your amp act as a voltage source, outputting 14 volts. Assuming that at dynamic peaks you are using 100 watts total, that would mean that your speaker cable has to handle 2 amps per channel. At a 30 foot run, in order to maintain voltage within 1% loss, you would need #8 awg cable for your speakers. Smaller cable will cause significant voltage drops at higher current loads limiting the dynamics of the amp. You've got great stuff, try either a shorter run, or beef up your wire gauge on your speaker cable.
Best Regards,
Mike

If you’ve a small room what is it do you feel your 50 watt Class A amp isn’t providing? I’m in a small 10 x 15’ room. I’m driving Martin Logan Summits with a 45 watt tube amp. I’ve grateful to find bliss in a small room. 

I agree with a-lot of the comments good input. I have to focus on two things. Great speakers for your room or small office. You will notice a remarkable difference with more power ie 200 wRMS plus.
It does sound that you have the upgrade itch. I have found that once you have the right amount of power everything else falls into place.
IMO your amp sounds great with more efficient speakers. 89db +

The very best sounding amps I've heard are all low in output.  But, these amps are not appropriate for many speakers and in situations where high volume is a requirement and/or the room is extremely large.  So there is a minimum amount of power that is needed, and that minimum is situational.  

It is hard to say whether the 50 watts you have is sufficient.  All else being equal, more power will at least afford you more headroom for the brief peaks when playing very loudly.  That may or may not be a sufficient basis to upgrade to higher power.  But, often there is a sonic price to more power.  I once heard a comparison between a 50 watt Rowland amp and a very similar Rowland amp that was much more powerful.  I actually preferred the sound of the lower powered amp, and the speakers used in the comparison where supposedly a power/current hog.  I don't know why this was the case--it could be that using a larger number of output transistors adversely affects the sound, it could be that some transistor amps don't sound as good when they are just loafing at a small fraction of their capability--but this showed me that more is not necessarily better.

All of my current amps are low-powered tube units (6.5 watts/channel being the brawniest), but, I have appropriately efficient speakers and I prize good low-volume performance over ability to shake the room.

I disagree with the generalization that more power is better. My Marantz 1060 at 30 wpc sounds better than most amps with 100, 200, 300 etc. It is all about the sound. It drives my outdoor speakers and they can obtain concert level sound with excellent fidelity.

As you are exploring the SVS option, take a look at the B&W PV1D. I just added a DB3D to my Magicos and the result is nothing short of spectacular.

I wonder if given how good your system is now, a good power regenerator might not make sense. I got the same PS Audio email and as I recall one of their power regenerators has an offer on it. I personally bought a P5, their smallest unit, and noticed a blacker background and more articulate sound, which I attribute to lower noise. I’ve built some DIY Pass equipment and know his power supplies are great, but think there’s still an argument for clean power. Painless to try. You can just return it if you don’t like it.

Power power power!!! Watts are the result of power and work in concert of each other. It is like horse power and torque one works great if you want to pull a stump out of the ground and the other if you are racing in a straight line. 

Your amp plays loud enough so keep it.  Subs crossed at 80 Hz or so will take more load off the Xa25.  The speakers will sound better with less IM distortion.

Don Sachs and Supratech make excellent tube preamps if you want to try one.

Speaker isolatIon is another thing to consider if not done.

I love the XA25. I own one.  If it already plays loud enough.....

So.  Cross the subs at 80 to 100 Hz.  Then you for sure have enough power.  The drivers in your speakers will vibrate less at lower volumes clearing up the sound, less IM distortion.  And the subs will increase dynamics.

Also, unless I missed it do you have your speakers isolated? I want to try this as well.  Supposed to clean up several things.  Soundstage for one.

If you want to try a different pre amp, a Don Sachs or Supratek are high quality for 2 to 3 k.

+1 for Silversmith Fidelium speaker cables. They are not expensive and probably the best available at any price. A no brainer.
Then as good a cartridge as you can afford. Source is critical.
If your amp is not clipping, you will not benefit from more power.
It is always tempting to get a bigger amp but not needed.
You seem to have a very nice system especially for a small room.
The Fidelium SC have a trial period but you will not send them back.
And the cartridge is where the sound is coming from.

Audiophilia nervosa? We all have it.
Powered subwoofers and external crossovers to reduce the bass load on the Amators might be worth trying.
You have great stuff, by the way.
Have fun!

There’s been lots written but here are my two adds: one more factual guidance, the other my opinion based on hearing various Sonus Fabers.

1. re: power vs quality - more power is only beneficial if you are exceeding the VOLTAGE limit of the amp. The Pass labs stuff can deliver plenty of current for its modest voltage (about 14 volts rms) under normal dynamic conditions (where one uses on average ~ 10-% of rated power due to music’s peak: average ratio) . If you are beginning to clip - get more power. Else. move on IMO. Note my answer assumes that money is limited and you can only spend your budget once: so money spent on an amp, for instance, is not spent on speakers.  Hint: i think you ought to look at speakers - whether i be subwoofers or a thoroughly different speaker. Yet that may not match your personal likes.

2. re: the speakers - it would be helpful to know the problem you are trying to solve. They will never have much bass - the laws of [physics are not on thier side, yet many speakers that solve that problem violate the laws of decorating. Only you know.

That said, when i have heard the Sonus Fabers they always sound somewhat bright and harsh from the upper mids up. This is, IMO, common in many components that seek "detail". It does not sound like music to me. Don;t get me wrong, they are very good speakers, but IMO nowhere near the quality of your preamp and amp (having only heard *ABOUT* the BHK, but knowing Nelson’s stuff).

Yet that may no be your objective at all. Step #1 if finding a solution is knowing the problem!

G

I would think a larger size amp would be like buying a new car and opting for the model with greater HP.  A larger size amp would work les hard and I wonder if this in turn would produce better sound.  I have always thought the larger the amp the better.  However, it would have to have the type of sound you are trying to obtain.

Not sure if you have a pair of subwoofers.  When I added my REL S2 subs, I was able to reproduce more bass at lower listening volumes.

Get a much larger amp and sell the XA25 to me.

If I read your OP correctly your sole reason for asking is that the rated amp power is at the low end of the recommended range for your speakers.  Sorry…forget that and just enjoy the music.  You have an excellent system, well chosen to provide a quality listening experience in your small bedroom.  And yes, if you have to tinker, get some high quality jacketed CL rated speaker wire.  Transparent HP122 or similar.  You’ll have to crimp and solder terminals after you pull it through the basement though.

It sounds like you have the itch to upgrade not because you need to but you kind of want to. With that, it is more pressure testing each component and finding the weakest link in the chain.  You have a great system that is better than many so you can stand pat.  

And incidentally, what is the old saying about opinions?

To me, lack of a conditioner is first.  I legit think that will help reduce your noise floor and expand your soundstage.  Doesn't need to be crazy expensive to get the big benefit.   A Panamax or Furman will get you there while some of the higher end units will deliver incremental benefit.  I would spend less than $2K if I were you.  And incidentally, just because your amp won't benefit from a conditioner, doesn't mean your other components won't.  DACs and phono stages may not be high current, but the circuits are delicate and small variations can impact sound.  

Second, your DAC is very good for the money but, improvement can be had.  I think stepping up to a better DAC will give you a leap forward in terms of resolution and image.  I have a few customers who have that DAC and side-by-side comparisons with others have delivered surprising results.  

Third, cables are worth considering.  They can be borrowed for a test. ICs, power cables and speaker cables can make a difference.  Which has the biggest impact will vary from system to system.  In my main system, I upgraded from a modest pair of Kimber Kable speaker cables to Audioquest Robin Hood and it was like I got a new component.  It was huge.  In my other system, the same exchange made basically no difference.  The swap from Kimber Tonik to Audioquest Water was big.  Switch from Water to Fire was minimal.  You get my point. 

I have heard some extraordinary changes because of cables.  Both good and bad.  I get a lot of cable trades and some very expensive cables have had shockingly bad impacts on my system and some modest priced cables have been surprisingly good.  Borrow some and see if you like it.  Keep an open mind in both directions.  Expensive does not mean better.  

Your preamp, amp and your speakers are all very good.  I can recommend better but I am not sure you will get a big gain without spending, and I don't mean the $3-4K it would take to trade up to a PS Audio BHK 250.  Simply adding power can help with many speakers, but I am thinking that is not the case with those speakers.  I would focus on quality and PS Audio, Pass and Sonus Faber are very high quality. 

Incidentally, no, I don't think your system is mid-fi.   If you want to spend $10K+ for any of those components, yes, you will see some gains.  There may be some diamonds to be found a lower prices but not obvious ones that are better to me.  

Hope this helps and good luck

my experience with wattage is speaker amp matching.  While waiting for new speakers, tried my esoteric class a amp with paradigm speakers.they have excellent bass response using small bass drivers.  With the esoteric the current must have shunted to the midrange and tweeters and was awful.  With my new Fyne which have larger
cone drivers the sq is beyond description.  Same sensitivity and resistance but clearly different electrical behaviors.  

You might try the monitor audio platinum 100 Gen 2
,I believe they are a better than the 
sonas Faber.

I see those speakers have a rear port. not knowing where your speakers are relative to walls/corners, they may be making more bass, but smearing things a speck.

While trying a sub, you might temporarily block the ports, just to learn something, it takes patience and time with familiar music.

the speakers will not be trying to make low bass after the crossover for the sub, so they will sound different anyway, so I would only mess with the ports AFTER I found a sub that I might keep.

My office, my old velodyne servo 1200 sub fell apart. I tried a single inexpensive sub, got lucky: not to add bass as much as to keep things from feeling a bit thin. Volume just enough, not aware of it unless I turn it off. That’s all you need to make a small system sound beyond small.

If you ever go for another preamp/integrated, I advise having pre-out main in. then you can send the primary need for power to the sub’s amp. both the amp and the speakers get a break.

Mark, your terrific system is something to envy. My young man systems in high end were a lot bumpier than that.
You're feeling something’s missing and from everything you say, the parts are all good. You might not be a believer in cables and wires, neither was I, however, a dealer friend loaned me a higher set of Van den Hull speaker cables and an expensive digital cable that I don’t remember because I was one of these non-cable believers and the sound of my then well-worn system, all of a sudden, gave me funny feelings in my chest. Maybe you have a dealer friend who has some ridiculous cables that you can try. You might be surprised.

Very nice collection you have. Unless you need more volume, nonononono

Unless that stylus is worn, the only thing I would be tempted to do is find a sub (or pair of small subs).

Who aligned the cartridge? Do you have alignment skills and tools? If not, research, learning and a few tools would lead to a nice achievement.

How big is the room? Listening position to appreciate imaging? 

Tubes: a simple tube tester is a nice thing to have.

First, your setup is not midfi !!!
it is a quality small high-end system.
Biggest change for you would probably be a better tube pre amp, or maybe check out more speakers in your room, your power amp is very good.

I think your Amp is probably a good match and if you like your speakers don't change them, they are going to define the sound of your system more than anything else. There are 2 places I'd consider an upgrade in your system. I'd definitely add some power treatmenr. I purchased a PS Audio power plant as was absolutely blown away by the difference. I got a power plant premier on the used market for 800 or so. Great investment. And then I see you have a digital and analog front end. Which do you use more? If the answer is analog, I might step up the turntable. It's a great high end entry unit but if you went with the next in their line like a performance DC, tracer arm, and maybe a Hana ML1200 you'd really be stepping it up. 

marktheshark OP
PS Audio BHK Preamp to a Pass Labs XA25, Class A, Sonus Faber Minima Amator II
What would be a better investment (most bang for the buck)

Sell both of these and get an Integrated 120w Gryphon Diablo 120 it has the Class-A sound of the XA25 but with heap more wattage and grunt (current) also.

https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/integrated-amplifiers/diablo-120/

https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/integrated-amplifiers/gryphon-diablo-300-integrated-amplifier/

Cheers George

What a crock of sh*t!  If you follow all this advice, you'd: replace pre-amp, amp, speakers, speaker cable, interconnects, add a power conditioner/regenerator, DAC, ... Would you be any happier?  Would you enjoy your listening sessions any more?  If you do make any changes, make them one at a time, giving yourself sufficient time in between changes to understand the differences you have achieved.  Fun hobby, but sometimes we stress unnecessarily!

A used PS Audio P5 regenerator made a huge difference to my system, but our power is awful.  Usually when I look, incoming AC is about 17% total harmonic distortion, and outgoing is about 1.5%.  The wife and sons noticed a difference.

We need to get some facts straight here… the XA25 shoots WAY above its ratings, as is typical of Pass Class A amps. The class a’s run very high biased mostly pure class A to the clipping point. Here are the actual measurements for that amp…

“Pass Labs specifies the XA25's output power as 25Wpc into 8 ohms and 50Wpc into 4 ohms (both equivalent to 14dBW). However, as you can see in figs. 4 and 5, the amplifier exceeded its specified power output at the clipping point, which we define as when the THD+noise equals 1%. At that THD+N percentage the XA25 delivered 80Wpc into 8 ohms (19dBW) and 130Wpc into 4 ohms (18.1dBW). It appears from the shape of the traces in these graphs that Pass specifies the XA25's power as when the THD+N is close to 0.01%”

The amp is not an issue with your speakers. Look into other areas, cables, room, placement etc, as others have mentioned.

The Pass amp is way more powerful than its rating. It is 25 watts class A but it then switches to class AB and is good for over 70 watts.

More power definitely, NO question.

Mark that hi-fi rig is impressive. I’ve never heard PS Audio BHK in person but many recommend very highly and the designer is something of an audio legend I understand?

50 watts of tube power can be a lot with big power supplies storing massive joules of energy.

Your front end components / amps are excellent, and you have a very good DAC in the Schitt Yggdrisil.

You ask, what would be a better investment (most bang for the buck) into the system as it is now, considering being in the bedroom of a small house. You suggest replacing the XA25 with a higher watt amp, or a power conditioner (PS Audio Power Plant II?) Or possibly upgrade the Minima Amator (which are sounding very good) to another set of speakers.

You said the speakers sound very good. What is the sound, as it is, lacking? What do you wish it had more of?

do you feel your power is dirty? If not then investing in small footprint full range speakers instead of a conditioner would probably be a better investment. If they are 88db - 90db efficient for the smaller space 50watts should drive those will no problems at all. As it is a bedroom that may be smaller, then mini-monitors are more practical of course. If your speaker cables and interconnects are sounding good I see not reason to spend the extra dollars there yet. Although i have found the right speaker wires and interconnects to help improve detail retrieval and create a bigger more balanced sound.

I'd vote for better dac and or nice silver interconnects. They will allow you to really see the potential in the bigger components, in my opinion. 

I'll bet it sounds very good. And since the sub is hooked up, you must be hearing some well balanced music. From the
comments you've made, you shouldn't be worried about power output anymore.

    Thanks for all the input people, this entire thread was prompted by an email from PS Audio. Because I have been a customer in the past, they were offering a nice discount on some of their products. I was looking at taking advantage of this, but per the general consensus, you guys have talked me off the ledge.

    Like I said, the system sounds very good, so maybe to enjoy the smaller tweaks and adjustments of systems is a better plan of attack. I'll be looking at power components, and maybe some new speaker cables.

Thanks Speakermaster, I'm not having issues at higher volumes, I can play it as loud as I can stand for a short time and still have no loss.

Bigkidz, you don't like the Yiggi ? :)
I have not done enough research on DACs to make the upgrade. Maybe over the winter I'll start. At this point I don't know what makes a good DAC, a good DAC.  I know you can by a thumb drive DAC for $69 and then you can multiply that by 100.........

The only reason to upgrade the amplifier is if you do not have enough volume level for the speakers otherwise you will be wasting your money buying better power cords/ speaker wire/ power conditioning will only improve the power you have they will not increase it. if you are happy with the sound and the volume this is the way to go, but if you notice volume limitations a bigger amplifier will help for sure but then you will probably reach the limit of the small speakers quickly, which means a larger pair of speakers. It all means that the problem of upgrading is complex and expensive, but if you buy a good used amplifier and speakers you can save a lot of money.

Replace your DAC.  That is the biggest limiting factor in your system.

Happy Listening.

I have found that you can never have too much power.  I would look into one of Nelson’s more powerful amps.  I wouldn’t waste money on different cables, the change will be subtle at best. Nelson Pass advises against using a power conditioner with his amps. He has already addressed it in the build of his amps.  I would move up to a 150wpc in the Pass line.  By staying with the same brand, the synergy shouldn’t change.  

Jonto, thanks more good reading
Lowrider, thanks I have the unbalanced out to the amp, and then the balanced out to the sub.

Mark, if you plug your subwoofer into a preamp output it will relieve some of the bass load from the Pass.
Set the crossover and the sub will supplement the bass and provide low-end extension.

There is a good article with Pass Nov 1 2018 issue of Stereophile in the Jim Austin article. If you Google Nelson Pass on power conditioning you should reach it. It's basically already done in his equipment.

Thanks Ghosthouse, looks like a good read 

Thanks Oldhvymech, I posted a picture above. I can't run the cables in front of the doorway. But I do agree, maybe spend the money and get 25' of better quality speaker cable. 

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipMrkGumpa2q7ASwUsVyri9wAEshcoOYyv2_9liw

Ok, so the shirts over the components is my wife covering the blinking lights at night.... not a total slob. 

And because I have to run my speaker cables down into the basement and then up on the other side of the room (20' - 25') I have not invested in high end speaker cables.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

For the money your best single investment would be shorten the cable runs and use a lot better cable.  You can do what your doing just fine.

The difference in SQ between 1/2  meter and 8 meters is really not that noticeable with so so cable. BUT with any type of GOOD cable, it's a big difference.

1/2 meter of copper zip cord vs 8 meters of high quality woven 24 conductor, (silver over copper, OCC copper clad) cable. I KNOW there is a big difference in sound quality.

One step closer and a lot less money is 1 - 3 meter high quality speaker cable vs the 8 meters of cable you're using..

I always thought I can't stand seeing cabling running everywhere. After the eye opening experience 40 years ago, I change my mind. I used good cables and short runs because I had to at the time.. Working on the house.  From then on everything under 10 feet, unless it was a bass bandpass or a sub.. It's the difference in mid fi vs hi fi yet the same exact gear...

I chose to move the gear and planned that way from then on.. Crazy thing that is what led to a 10,000lb (24"x18"x18ft) slab at one end of a bedroom, that is just now being converted 39 years later to one of two sound room this one with built traps and 3 foot cable runs. That would have cost me 10k now. It was 250.00 back them. 2-3 yards of concrete and rebar.

HT cable length, who cares? It's a sound effect deal anyways.. 

Regards

You say you have a small house and the system is in a bedroom, so I'm going to assume a smallish bedroom.  You have a lot of equipment in a small room.  Can you provide a picture?  Why not tidy things up an get an integrated amp with built-in digital and phono?  To match your current setup it's going to be expensive, something like CH, Gryphon or ASR.  Think about it.

Based on Stereophile measurements of the XA25, I would say that the amp is good for up to 30 watts per channel clean.  Anything above that will start to have distortion/clipping problems (not that you would really notice any difference between 25 and 30 watts, lol).

That being said, it takes a very beefy power supply and large heatsinks to run a stereo amp at 25 watts per channel "full Class A".  That amp is going to have extremely clean and full sound.  This Pass XA25 has a nice mellow full sound.  Very nice to listen to, but it is somewhat laid back when compared to more dynamic amps.

The BHK 250 will likely be able to give you slightly stronger deep bass strength, with it being a 250 watt per channel Class AB amp with good size power supplies.  The BHK is a cleaner and more neutral sounding amp than the Pass XA25, but it is still mild sounding (most likely due to the stock Genelex Gold Lion tubes).  It's likely that you can get this amp to sound more exciting with PSVANE or Electro-Harmonix input tubes.

I'm not sure that you would really notice or care about the slight increase in deep bass strength, since it's a 6" bookshelf speaker, but I could be wrong.  Going from XA25 to BHK 250 is really about a sonic signature change.

Mark, you don't need more watts, unless you notice a lack of low-end at your typical listening level. That's a sweet amp that produces high current which is what you really want in your system.

The only addition I would recommend is power conditioning/surge protection. You'll get lots of recommendations here, so you should state your budget. Only sources should go into a conditioner, since most are current-limiting. That means a high-current amp like yours can lose dynamics due to the filtering used to lower RFI/EMI and noise from the mains. The result of power conditioning is a lower noise-floor which will reveal more detail, better imaging, and air around instruments.
Anyway, a Pass Labs amp does not need a PC, it is designed to reject common noise.

I think this article will be helpful.  Certainly relevant to your discussion title.  
https://www.primaluna-usa.com/less-power-more-bass

If you in fact need to do anything at all, consider power quality over more wattage.

Tablejockey's comment is on the money.  I just did the experiment outlined in the article with a 35 watt amp driving 86 db sensitivity speakers.  Only takes 4 watts to arrive at a 92 db level. As it turns out, for me, 92 db constant white noise at 1 meter is WAAAY louder than how I listen even given my listening position is 3-4 meters (not 1) from the speakers.