McIntosh -- good for show, not for sound, says dealer

So which is better amps, Mac or Bryston? No one seems able or willing to answer this simple question.

I don't get the Mac hate either. I don't have Mac but I don't bash it or bash other audio companies. So what if someone likes Mac? Some folks like Hegel, others don't. If you're happy with your Mac, that's all that matters. He's only expressing his personal opinion. And what's up with that hair!?

"To me the looks good versus sounds good thing is pretty stupid."

Right you are triodelover1499.

I try not to make things too complicated and just use common sense. McIntosh has been very successful for a really long time and it continues to be. Resale value is excellent. It would be silly think their products don’t have appeal. People like nice things and aren’t stupid, but people like different things, some want looks, some what sound, some want status, some want what they want when they were growing up and didn't have money. But how can we argue that alot of people like McIntosh alot and have for a long time. To me the looks good versus sounds good thing is pretty stupid.

@hilde45: Insightful post as are many other in this thread.

What's refreshing about this conversation is the civility by all, and the amount of non-posters/researchers I like to refer to us as, myself included, that have come out to participate and support what has been in the past an unfair and unsubstantiated bash tactic on a company for which we should all be acknowledging a job well done if we are truly honest in our evaluation.

From the McIntosh critics, I requested detailed perspective to seek to understand their position since my experience is starkly contrary to the overall generic positions contributed. Other than one fairly detailed post, I don't think we received any detail of significance. So I'll initiate the ask again, what McIntosh product was it that did not provide satisfaction for you and why? What solution did you come to that enabled you to gain that satisfaction? 

@jjss49 

fascinating to me what transpires on this thread, not sure if this is what @hilde45 intended with his op

I didn't know how people would react. Here is how I see things. As the article I posted weeks ago show (from a well research Japanese business journal article), the forces which cause hifi equipment to succeed or fail are based on a number of factors. They don't all need to be named, but the two relevant for this thread are (a) forum discussions and (b) reviewers (now including YouTube).

When I seen reviews on YouTube which make strong claims (to thousands of people --3.8k in just two days), I sometimes like to see what others with a stake in the hobby think about those claims. In the course of this, facts are sometimes corrected, bad reasoning is highlighted, and hidden motivations are ferreted out. Sometimes people just say they agree with the review for x, y, or z reasons.

Reviewers, dealers, makers are all in these forum discussions, too. They pay attention because they know that comments sometimes matter. Comments build or tear down products or even brands. 

Seeing so many people with experience and knowledge come to defend McIntosh is an interesting result. For the hobbyist out there considering McIntosh and searching for comments, they can now find both this thread and the YouTube video in question. This thread adds to the conversation and perhaps helps someone make a decision.

If this was just about "opinion," no one would care, no one would post. The issue is not "freedom of opinion" (banal phrase) but the "truth or falsity of claims." Sometimes those claims are about taste -- but we argue about taste all the time. Clearly, there's something at stake, and something we use to stand up our claims.

I've often thought of trading my 8900 in for a Hegel H390. I like the 8900 but prefer less of a warm sound which the 8900 does a good job of without tubes. I've also been watching the Michi line.

This is a more apt comparison. That said, I know a Lexus is not for everyone either! :)

Instead of Rolex or Harley Davidson, why not compare McIntosh to Lexus.

Like Lexus, McIntosh has:

1. Excellent longevity and good looks.

2. Top Tier resale value and brand recognition.

3. Competitive performance in each segment.

4. One of the highest rated customer satisfaction and ownership experiences.

5. Owners either trade for another Lexus, or keep it in the family and buy another.

I've noticed in the previous posts that if a McIntosh owner shares their likes, it's detailed and specific including models and supporting thoughts. However, the critics don't offer "the why" details to support their position other than generic blanket statements with no proof of ownership other than owned and didn't like, moved on, etc. Not that their position is not valid, but where's the what and why that we would like to read and learn about?

Speaking of blanket statements............haha

Ridiculous 

He could have made a fortune if he would have stuck with Denafrips.....I'd like to hear Alvin Lee's side of the story....a more than highly respected member of the audio hi-fi community if you have ever dealt with him.

another thing this thread proves and reminds us of are the limitations of ’handy analogies’... rolex's, harleys, lexus' ...  ugh...

such are coarse, highly inexact tools for assisting the unknowing with only a very cursory understanding...

This dude needs to get a haircut and stop smoking that funny stuff.He knows nothing. I forgot more then this guy will ever know listen to him at your own risk.What system does he have that makes him the expert.

@toddalin Yes the old Macs have soul and character like an old Harley.

I am a European bike buy and prefer my Ducks, Aprilia's and the Norton Commando 750 I restored. Might be why i have a Hungarian Integrated with a German TT and Swedish phono preamp and speakers.

I have always considered "Macs" to be the "Harley-Davidson" of audio, and anyone who knows "bikes" knows just what I mean. 😉

Thanks Master M. for pointing out the relationship between the user, their room AND their gear. 

The three are as important as having 120vac @ 60hz with new equipment. 

I have been able to make just about any preamp and power amp work if I first address a clean AC source and then with a room up approach. I don't tune like Master M with perfect personal volume (Helmholtz) tuning.

It is difficult to achieve for ME I'm not that patient and wouldn't be able to clean that type of system with MY pet situation. I do have 4 14" x 84" Sono tubes though. They are well on their way to taming a 25 X 40 shop.. Helmholtz.
3 bumps 60, 80 and 120hz are tough in a single tube. I'm close. It hasn't ruined the bass either. Those bumps can become deep dips with Helmholtz, it works BOTH ways. It's just mechanical in leu of full blown PEQ. A passive EQ is actually better for MY bass system. GEQ. My contours are added analog to the bass passively not digitally by altering the signal.

Sub/bass and then integrate the main speakers in.. I have used the same type of speakers 25+ years.. Small planars and ribbons.. The only thing I've changed in the last 6 years is the 60-80hz and below. GRs servo system.

I know I could use an MC240, C20 and a couple pairs of good class D to really set up top notch SQ in a tuned room. It's 50% of the sound pretty easy. 1300.00 for the original C20 and 240. I still have them. I use 12K Behringer for bass and GRs.

I'm with Master M as the years go by it cost LESS to get great sound not more. It does cost a lot of time though..

Regards

McIntosh makes nice stuff that lasts over decades. They are still in business. 

Matching with the right source, speakers, cables, helps make a difference. 

Some of their amps can sound nice, particularly for fans of the signature Mc sound. 

Agree.  Nice post.

fascinating to me what transpires on this thread, not sure if this is what @hilde45 intended with his op

there are mcintosh bashers whose bashing is repetitive, argumentative, unnecessary... but the defensive defenders can be just as obnoxious

reality is, there are so many good choices for hifi gear, it is a wonderfully vibrant marketplace... good sound and good looks need not be mutually exclusive, some want both, some want good stuff, good brand recognition, are not 10-10ths hifi herds, others are... why do we care how other people choose to spend their money, pursue their happiness if it is not our own? some of us like this brand, the looks, so what, so what if we don’t?

i feel so much of this stems from our base instincts... jealousy, envy, frustration with our own circumstances, shallow need for external validation of our own personal choices... we should rise above all of this...

just enjoy the music, the fact that we all have the wherewithall to enjoy this hobby, participate in this forum, this discussion, and we should wish each other good luck in finding one's own version of happiness within it...

Everyone is entitled to like what they like. But it’s better for everybody to keep any hate suppressed. Except for my hate of the OP’s "discuss."

No good can come from it.

Anyone else getting the feeling that this is becoming a nascar argument of Ford vs Chevy? 
sit back and enjoy the music anyway you can. Even if you are in your Ford and passing a Chevy!

@hilde45, peace!

@curiousjim, you said:

"ocdmikey is the same clown who lost out on distributing of Denafrips products and went on YouTube blasting the company and their products. Really appeared to be sour grapes."

Mikey didn’t loose Denafrips. He choose to drop them. His video clearly explains what happened. Denafrips didn’t honor the distribution agreement they had with Mikey. Also, they wanted Mikey to drop all of the other lines he represents and only carry them.

In the video Mikey explained that the way the Chinese company operates, there wasn’t any benefit to an American distributing company, only to the Chinese company. The price an end user pays is over priced due to where it’s manufactured.

Mikey told his side of the story of what happened. He said people can continue to buy the brand if they want. That’s not sour grapes. That’s explaining his decision to drop the brand and move on. If the company didn’t honor it’s agreement and then put unrealistic demands on Mikey as a provision of continuing to represent the brand, who could blame him for dropping them?

So, umm, lemme guess, 11Stereo is not a McIntosh dealer, but is a dealer for other brands at similar price points to Mac gear. FWIW, I have been using a C220 preamp for over a decade. Yes, I like it’s looks, but I bought it because of its flexible functionality. I did swap out the tubes and got better performance and lowered the noise floor. To my ears, in the context of my system, it sounds fantastic, and has the features I need, like a balance control with great range, and a tape loop. The MM phono section sounds wonderful, and needle drop digital copies of my LPs sound awesome. Overpriced? Not to my ears, although I did by used. YMMV.

It took reading all the way down the first page of this thread before someone mentioned value (thanks henry53). There can be no doubt that McIntosh products are very well built, last a long time, and for most people, sound just fine. If you don't care about money, by all means buy McIntosh. But if you do care about money and value, McIntosh products are very expensive for what you get. Since I'm always concerned about value, McIntosh products are a non-starter for me, but that in no way means they're bad performing products.

Like others reading this thread, I don’t post very often. But since I’m using an MC352 to drive Quad ESL63s, I’ll say that my rig sounds amazing to me (and others who hear it). The Mac, to my ears, doesn’t sound like anything. It’s like looking into a pool of clear water. The goal for my rig is to sound like nothing at all. This is the closest I’ve ever gotten. Will grant that maybe I don’t have the depth of experience with other brands (or budget) of others on this forum. 

Got a good deal on my Mac used, but still paid a premium for it. But that’s what branding is all about, right?  It looks good, but I think ALL audio gear looks cool. 
 

… and to the guy with JBL 4350s, Cool!  I listened to a pair of 4330s for a long time…

@vuch  I agree. Peace.

McIntosh has arguably the best brand in Audio. Decades of quality products (a few turds), great service, and a unique style. Is it state of the art? No, but that's not what they're trying to do.

You can argue that you don't like the sound of McIntosh gear. "House Sound" and all that. Some people like it, some don't.

You cannot argue that McIntosh gear is expensive. That's just shortsighted foolishness. The biggest cost of this hobby is the cost of depreciation. As a rule, electronics depreciate exceptionally fast. As long as you take care of it, you are risking very very little when you buy Mc gear, especially if you buy used. Every piece of Mc gear I have bought was essentially "free", I bought it, enjoyed it for a number of years and quickly sold it for what I paid or more.

come on, guys...some of you object to specs/measurements, saying what is important is the sound.  Others of you object to individuals subjective opinion of sound when it doesnt agree with yours...it seems to me Mike has expressed HIS OPINION, and repeatedly says it is his opinion, can we not just leave it at that?  I kinda like the guy, as he doesnt come off as some snooty dude who is rich....BUT his opinion is his opinion, no more than that...he does bring up some valid points about the visual impact of certain brands, and I do agree with some of that....

@itsjustme..You say.."Blanket statements miss more relevant points" and follow it up with "Some of their newer designs are inferior".....a blanket statement.

Mac amps tend to have low damping so speakers that need alot of damping might not sound good. All about component matching. My mc462 sounds fantastic on my tektons... let the haters begin. LOL.

Of course if you want to reproduce recorded music accurately, there are pretty much unlimited other choices, but hey, if looks is your thing and not music, well, go for it!

Cheers!

Congrats richopp, another stupid post...

He better not mess with my JBL 4350's. 

I recently demoed McIntosh + Wilson Alexia, vs Rockport + Gryphon Diablo, vs  SF Olympia III + Musical Fidelity.

To my ears, the McIntosh + Wilson combo was the least appealing.

That said the McIntosh amps were the only amplifiers prominently displayed. 

Blanket statements pro and con miss more relevant points, such as "not all Mc is created equal". Their legacy tube designs are beautifully made, and typically warm (someone said "wet blanket") :-)  Its rarely state of the art, but it is solid, backed by a solid company, etc.

Some of their newer designs, including the SS ones and hybrids, are, IMO, quite inferior. for DACs, well, its not their thing (again IMO, YMMV).

All products are trade-offs.

I think the real problem here is that Mikey is losing income every month because he's a Jeff Roland dealer and Not a McIntosh dealer. The beautiful and lush MAC 352 @$6500 US is a sweet spot in the MAC line.....Much more attractive and better overall sounding with it's tube pre and SS amp. And it's a beautiful piece of equipment. To each his own but bashing another brand when you represent a direct competitor is not a smart thing to do. Most on this thread see thru the "veil".

But his next move is to start herding people into the camp of looks (effectively calling them non-audiophiles) by dint of brand association. It becomes an "us" vs. "them" strategy that names names. That kind of tribalism -- he calls his fans/customers a "tribe" -- is reminiscent of the worst instincts we have. It turns us against one another in politics, religion, orientation, and more. Don’t we have enough of that?

@hilde45, I apologize for using the "C" word! That's where my mind went after reading your comment. 

Regarding desperation, that's a state of mind that I wouldn't wish on anyone. I've been there many times in life before. My way to combat those feelings is to try to and be grateful and embrace humility. 

Mac looks beautiful, but the house sound, especially for their SS gear, is not accurate to my ears. I have never understood the devotion frankly. I remember the first time I heard the 2105 amplifier in the mid 70’s while shopping for an amp. I thought the bass was bloated and ill defined, the highs edgy, and the overall sound thin with a flat sense of space. Remains to this day the worst sounding high end amp I ever heard. That sound has continuously continued- bloated bass, thin presentation, poor sense of depth- ever sense. It’s the autoformers I guess. 

I purchased a McIntosh MA 6100 in 1978. I’m still using it in a third system in my record storage room. It sounds great.  I also bought a previously owned MA 6900 in 2007 from Audio Classics in Vestal NY.  It is a full featured integrated that keeps me smiling. A month ago the 6900 went into protection mode and stayed there.  Ryan at Audio Classics made a diagnosis over the phone saying that McIntosh would replace the capacitor in question free of charge.  It took a few days for them to get the part from McIntosh. I made an appointment  and they repaired the unit that day.  They also replaced all the light bulbs for a small fee.  I believe that is exceptional customer service from Audio Classics and McIntosh. I tried to arrange a visit to McIntosh but apparently they are not conducting tours during the pandemic.  What’s not to like.  Wish I also had a vintage McIntosh tube amp.

I have a pair of Mac 611 monoblocks driving B&W 802D's that sound wonderful.  They replaced eight parallel-series connected Harmon Kardon Citation II tube amps that output over 500 watts/channel at 0,1% THD into those same 'speakers.

Sound was excellent from the tube amps, too, but replacing $45 output tubes and 2.5 kW power consumption, not to mention lugging a 60-pound tube amp upstairs to my test bench at my age after every replacement necessitated the change.

I haven’t done a lot of serious listening McIntosh equipment. I did recently seriously audition the MA252 integrated. Worked great with a pair of Sonus Fabers. Not good at all with a pair of Harbechs. Okay with mine. My take, though, is that it was overpriced for the sound. But you get good, US service, and that's part of the price. 

A lot of this is about equipment matching. 

Reproduced sound is always a subjective matter of the listener and I don’t think Mikey gets that. I believe Mikey is more of a Mac hater than an audiophile. Don’t really share his views which is fine but Mikey really lost his credibility when you said you can buy a Mac for a 40% discount. Please post where, because I’m a buyer! The truth is McIntosh holds their resale value more than another brand and actually you’d be hard pressed to find a Mac at a 40% discount used. So judging from the masses I know there’s always going to be someone trying to knock off the king of the hill off the top or whatever reason but your reasoning borders on lame without any evidence except your thoughts. BTW I don’t really care what a Mac looks like but I don’t need a candle with my tube glow!

Turning people against one another is one way of looking at what he says. I look at it like that's his opinion. Saying he's turning people against one another feeds into permanent disagreement and division. That's your opinion of what's happening, it doesn't make it true. 

@vuch 

Point taken. So, it is my *argument* (not "opinion") that he is name-bashing in the video. He is over-generalizing in the video. It is an old "David vs. Goliath" trope. You buy it. I don't. You're working with him, I'm not. 

I don't own any of the gear he bashes. I don't work with him. I have no dog in this fight, but I see what he's up to. It's pretty obvious.

Oh, and I'm not "canceling" him. I'm calling him out for *what he actually says.* The charge of cancellation smacks of desperation when when it's used to sub in for a counterargument.

Mac stuff is really pretty.  So was the Sequerra Tuner and the Transcriptor TT.

Levinson stuff is also pretty, and it is hard to beat Bang and Olufsen for looks.

Of course if you want to reproduce recorded music accurately, there are pretty much unlimited other choices, but hey, if looks is your thing and not music, well, go for it!

Cheers!

It also comes down to personal choice also.

My room is optimized and I have owned several modern McIntosh integrated sand sold them, just was not for me from a sound or esthetic point.

The amps were well built just not my cup of tea.

Now comparing the brand to a Lexus I can see, predictable, sterile, and stable. Like a Honda motorcycle.
 

But it is still a great American Iconic Brand as is HD, Chevy, Cadillac, Cat and Boeing. 

I rarely post about my system because it is McIntosh and on this forum there are so many McIntosh bashers it is not worth the abuse. Hopefully we have bashed McIntosh enough for 2022. 

It was not a lament of my part here... just an example to reveal that gear interest people not complex acoustic...

I used to have almost no answer in my thread :)

It is better that way....

Nobody has see my room the photos in my virtual page are years old already...It is way much more mad... It is an acoustic laboratory for me... I dont give a dam for esthetic i dont want to give one bucks first, sceond i want to created myself my own devices... They dont exist in the market anyway.... Acoustic is way more complex than what those who sell panels say it is...

It is the reason why i learned that acoustic matter way more than any relatively good piece of gear ,even if their sound colore and flavor are all different...Mc Intosh, Sansui or any relatively good amplifier will do even if i love my Sansui...A

Acoustic is not about flavor but about complete recreation of all acoustic characteristc of perceived sound....

Someone who own a dedicated controlled room dont want to upgrade....i will not.... Even if i know that my dream Amplifier will be better than my Sansui : Berning ZOTL...My ratio S.Q./price is already optimal ....

Then people must pick the amplifier they like and after that go into acoustic... Bashing other amplifier they dont like is children play... Especially when most people have never listen to their own system really and dont know his peak working  potential because their living  room is at best simply treated with few panels and in most case not even treated... Then with a non mechanically controlled room the system and the room dont play together at all synergetically FOR YOUR SPECIFIC EARS....

“In my new thread about acoustic almost no answer ...Why?”

@mahgister

You need to know your audience..does that ring a bell? Most folks here can’t rival or afford your level of dedication to room acoustics. I mean just look at your room, it should be a national treasure. There is something other worldly about the room and your exquisite work, have you contacted Guinness World Records?

@kingbarbuda, word.

@hilde45, Mikey doesn't script his videos. He doesn't monetize them either. He knows he's out there and is an acquired taste. I mean he calls himself OCD HiFi guy and makes fun of himself.

One thing that comes across very strongly is his passion for sonics. That's backed up by the system he's put together and his listening room. Geez, he converted his garage into a listening room! That's commitment! 

His passion extends to calling out iconic brands he feels once had amazing gear but have sold out to corporations that take the good name of a brand and start to sell gear designed to increase profits instead of staying true to quality made gear. He's been in the industry a long time and looks inside the box to see what kind of quality goes into a component. That's exactly what Kevin Deal does but Kevin dances around and gives hints on what brands he's talking about.

I think his beef with Magico is that they're very expensive. I know he said that he thinks they're made to look pretty. I didn't buy the A3's for looks. I thought my old Infinity RS4b's were a much better looking speaker. I bought the A3's for sonics.

Turning people against one another is one way of looking at what he says. I look at it like that's his opinion. Saying he's turning people against one another feeds into permanent disagreement and division. That's your opinion of what's happening, it doesn't make it true. I'm not willing to cancel him for his opinion or claim he's dividing people. Accepting that other people have differing opinions is how society can become healthier. Not accepting other peoples opinions and claiming they are divisive and flat out wrong is what's wrong with our society today and it seems to be getting worse. 

I have many good friends on the opposite side of the political and religious isle because I recognize that their opinions are different from mine but I still value their friendship because we have other passions that align. We just have to be respectful of each others strongly held opinions. When that happens everyone can get along and share the good information that each of us has.

“In my new thread about acoustic almost no answer ...Why?”

@mahgister

You need to know your audience..does that ring a bell? Most folks here can’t rival or afford your level of dedication to room acoustics. I mean just look at your room, it should be a national treasure. There is something other worldly about the room and your exquisite work, have you contacted Guinness World Records?

Thanks hilde for your kind words...

But remember something important also about what i called mechanical equalization... Which is different than the room treatment only...

Here the mechanical TUNING add something no room treatment is able to do alone, it bent the room to what the system is asking for, for your specific ears...

It is this ignorance about the complexities of acoustic that made people FOCUS on upgrade and piece of gear mainly to improve their experience...

Alas! Like i said the greatest solution is a dedicated room not a new amplifier if the amplifier you already own is basically good...

Then first you choose your flavored prefered system in a treated room...

Second you bent the room for it with mechanical equalization and guess what ? the S.Q. is over the roof for your ears with this system...

there is difference between any system but not so powerful to compared with an acoustic settings designed for his optimal working...

Here we speak of gear plenty of people answer...

In my new thread about acoustic almost no answer ...

Why?

Because acoustic is complex matter and it is more easy to buy gear....

You are right about some gear being not very good to begin with...

But most quality gear are basically good.... It is a taste question more than objective quality....

Then kNowing that the gear is secondary to acoustiic...