If you don’t like B&W, you should avoid tweeter types other than silk and ribbons, both flat and folded. The Wilsons you like use soft domes, IIRC. IME, in an otherwise well voiced speaker, these tend to be free from harshness and listening fatigue, source material permitting, of course. YMMV. I haven’t heard them, but the Rosso Fiorentini Elba 2 fits your profile quite well. A review I read suggests they would give you what you want at $6k the pair. https://www.audiothesis.com/product-page/rosso-fiorentino-elba
Of course, the speakers I have owned for over 10 years are also worth auditioning. My Ohm Walsh 2000s have a moderately small footprint, soft dome tweeters, and sound much fuller and warmer than B&W speakers, IMHO. They are $3800 the pair, USA made, and come with a 120 day return option. You will never confuse them with Wilsons, but for the price come closer than anything else I have heard. And I do like the Wilson house sound.
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Thank you all for your considered and polite input.
I thought that I would provide some additional input so that each of you could understand my struggles.
I am a 65 year old professor who loves to attend live (mostly rock) concerts. My wife of 28 years is 1 year younger. When we have compared notes, we have realized that back in the late 1960's and thereafter we had (independently) attended the same concerts. She and I like the same music. My 21 year old daughter also likes our music but, of course, she has her own music as well.
We have a Bryston (separates) and JM Labs (Focal) system that we put into the house about 23 years ago. Due to the birth of our daughter and a couple of terriers, we basically stopped listening to the system. In addition, the system at our current age sounds too bright and harsh in the mid to high frequencies. So we have decided to trade in/sell the system.
So, as you all are aware, today there is a dearth of dealers where you can listen and demo equipment. And if you can find one, they have only limited equipment to demo. And even if you can find one who has a lot to listen to, they write you off if you have too many questions.
So I started down the rabbit (black) hole of internet research. Reviews,etc. I tried to start with the speakers. Then went to integrated amps. I had tentatively settled on Mcintosh's ma 8950. Autoformers, 200 wpc, Dac 2, tone controls, etc. But I got to listen to the Hegel H190 and H390 which I though were very smooth and neutral--but no sound controls and, in the case of the H390, no headphone jack/amp. The headphones are a must.
So, I am getting very depressed at the process. But here are my current thoughts as to possibilities.
Power: Hegel or Mac (my wife and I love the blue meters)--integrated but could go to separates (possibly with a tube pre (C22 or C2700) and SS power (mc2700) Mcintosh).
Speakers: Revel F208
Monitor Audio (have not heard)
Kef R3 or Reference 1
Vandersteen (have not heard and may be too wide)
Wilson SabrinaX
Paradigm Persona B
Maggies--I don't like
Aerial Acoustics (have not heard but like their story)
Harbeth, Spendor and Proac (have not heard and do not know what the "British sound" is like)
Don't like Klisch, Focal, B&W or almost all JBL's
If my wife would permit, I would get the ma8950 and the SabrinaX and a Roon Nucleus and put it all in the living room (23' X 19') and be done. But that is not an inexpensive system and since the living room is in the center of the house and, due to COVID, we both work from home at least 5 days a week, we may not be able to play it very loud.
Here is a YouTube link to a live performance that we recently discovered. (You all are probably familiar with it but what can I tell you, we just discovered this artist). If you listen to it from 2:45 on (after his intro), you will get an idea of what we are looking for--mostly smooth, melodic, loud electric with good guitar details, good drum snaps and lots of echo and digital delay effects especially on the vocals. We are looking to create that through our new system with a large soundstage.
I know that this is a lot of information but any input is welcome and will help to take me out of my paralysis by analysis mode and lift my spirits immeasurably.. Thank you very much.
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OP. I can't speak of Focal as I haven't spent much time with them. B&W speakers are definitely NOT fatiguing! If they are to you then I'd guess there is an issue with your room. You really need to listen to a set of speakers in a well set up system and then decide. Good luck. Joe
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If you are buying a new system, why that amp? Suggest you re-think the amp and go for the Maggies. Your room will be great with them, but as noted, you need power. I suggest you spend your $9000 for used ARC tube separates, but that's just my experience. You can get a good used ARC preamp for $1500 or so and put the rest to as high a power ARC used tube amp(s) as you can find. With tubes, 150 a side should be fine in your room with Maggies. If not, you can always add more later. Either way, you get WHAT YOU PUT IN with Maggies, so they reproduce the source. I don't know about streaming, so I will leave that to others.
Whatever you decide, good listening!
Cheers!
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you may want to check out the Raven Corvus Monitors, beautifully done and terrific sound at every type of music, clear voicing, great detail, never fatiguing
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Have you checked out PBN. There line has a huge spectrum.
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@wast314
your add’l info is quite helpful... always good to see folks coming here for advice provide ample useful input so we can be more informed to try to help you properly
a few additional thoughts -
1. life is short, if wilson sabrina x’s are it for you, you should go for it... why have regrets?
2. not sure how much of your speaker choice is driven by visuals, cosmetics and/or speaker set up constraints, or is it pretty much all about the sound? if the latter, please do not underestimate magnepans, while they look how they do, and demand to be out into the room they play in, they are absolutely superb when done right and provide a magical balance of live presence without attendant treble harshness
3. seems like you are bascailly quite sensitive to modern sizzly treble but still want the visceral impact of a live performance in the rest of the range, along with tonal correctness at good volumes - given this, i do agree with your notion of getting electronics that have tone controls, or the modern version of such, being digital signal processing/equalization - this will allow you to use speakers that are more alive sounding, but shelve down the treble
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OP be patience , at times it takes lots of speaker Audition to really choose the right one for you and your wife.You also need to be open minded on your selections? If looks is important to you, there are many musical speakers that will suite your preference, but not your eyes .I have collections of Speakers the ugly one are the one that really suite my sound preference, the nice looking one are for my eyes and a bit for my ears Iam also 65 yrs old like you. I’ve been in this hobby for at least 30 now. If you like Wilson speakers. Albertportis is a Agon member , who has lots of Wilson inventories. PM him. He is from Chicago.
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With the additional info you provided I’d highly recommend stretching a bit for the Joseph Audio Perspectives and a Hegel integrated — with the $$$ you save by not buying the Mac that should make the stretch a lot easier. I heard the Perspectives with Hegel at a show and the sound was fantastic and everything you’re looking for, and I’d recommend the Hegel over the Mac for the same reason. Plus the Perspectives are very attractive and would look great in your living room.
Another option I’d highly recommend are the new Usher ML-801 speakers that have the benefit of being closer to your stated budget than the JAs if that’s an issue. Haven’t heard them yet, but I’m familiar with the Usher house sound and am confident they too would be right up your alley (I still do think their Dancer Mini Two DMD is also an outstanding option as it’s gorgeous and uses their top diamond tweeter along with being considerably less expensive and well under your budget). Here’s a good review — always a good sign when the reviewer buys the review sample (he upgraded from the Dancer Mini 2 DMD BTW)…
https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/usher-audio-ml-801/
Hope this helps, and best of luck in your quest.
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Thanks for the additional input.
Ok, I have to be honest, if not approached correctly, getting the right sound is going to be forever elusive. Given your interests and some comments on speakers are confusing.
Before you go any further I recommend stopping and slowing down. Do not buy an amp before the speakers. You want to choose speakers first then choose your electronics to support and get the right sound out of them.
I recommend you and your wife use this opportunity to go to a city with two or three high end stores for a weekend. Make reservations at the stores for a couple hour or more listening sessions. Explain in detail the sound you think you want. It is great to listen to systems more expensive than want to buy… because you want to be able to say… “that system, that is the kind of sound I want”. This will help you understand what you want and most likely identify your speaker brand. Then you need to choose for your room size etc.
After the speakers, then you want to choose your amp. You could easily overspend… or get the wrong character amp… and end up with the wrong sound.
By the way, I love the look of MacIntosh equipment. I have gone in repeatedly over the decades with the intent of buying a component. Within thirty seconds, I go “nope not for me”. Even a couple years ago my dealer said… “they changed their sound… it is more detailed , try it.” Thirty seconds… not a chance. For me.
On the other hand folks that love rock highly gravitate to MacIntosh / B&W… sometimes JBL. You see my confusion.
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You're right to stay away from B&W and Focal. I also think you can do better than Wilson.
As for auditioning, it depends on where you live, but brands you should listen to with deeper market penetration (more stores carry them) are Vandersteen and Sonus Faber.
Another way of going about this would be to consider the home trial/free return route. Take a look at the offerings of Crutchfield, Music Direct and Audio Advisor.
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I highly recommend the Volti Razz. I ordered a pair (to replace my Harbeth 30.2s and REL sub) after hearing them at the 2021 Capital Audio show. Loved my Harbeth’s but love the Volta’s more. Great soundstage, clean sound with wonderful bass. Paired with Rogue Stereo 100 power amp and Prima Luna EVO 300 preamp. I listen mostly to streamed music fro Bluesound Node running through a Chord Qutest DAC. Razz may be my final pair of speakers. I think they play way above their weight (no pun intended because they are hefty). Good luck
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no mention of the so called BBC speakers? If B&W are too bright, Sterling or Harbeth or Rogers might be right
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I would suggest the Rockport Atria. When I was upgrading my speakers I listened to the Sabrina’s as well. For me the Rockports were just more musical and natural. I liked to them so much I bit the bullet and bouts Aviors
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Fyne speakers might be a good choice, but be sure to go for the F700 series or the SP models in the 500 series. They are made in Scotland and have great sound—92 db sensitivity and great imaging and sound stage. I have the F702s driven by Rogue Audio RP-1 tube preamp and Benchmark AHB power amp.
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I've gotta +1 for Spatial Audio Labs. I have X5s. It takes no power to drive them beautifully - I am using a 2a3 SET amp. A couple months ago I spent a few hours at the Pacific Audio Fest in Seattle. To my ears, NOTHING matched the Spatials in terms of top to bottom coherency and the illusion of floating the sound between the speakers.
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If the OP considers Vandersteen "possibly too wide" (see his post above) then a lot of these recommendations are not going to work.
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I have a Mac C47/ MC452 with the Aerial 7t’s and they are very nice. These speakers are a Stereophile class A item.
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By the way, I love the look of MacIntosh equipment. I have gone in repeatedly over the decades with the intent of buying a component. Within thirty seconds, I go “nope not for me”. Even a couple years ago my dealer said… “they changed their sound… it is more detailed , try it.” Thirty seconds… not a chance. For me.
@ghdprentice 100% my experience too. I just don’t get it at all. Working briefly for Magnolia I got to hear KEF Blades driven by Mac gear and they sounded like mush and nothing like what I know they’re capable of compared to hearing them at shows where they seemed completely open and transparent. Maybe it’s just me, but Mac just seems like the Emperor’s new clothes of audio.
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People generally recommend what they have or have had. Most put a lot of research into their purchases and have chosen accordingly; makes perfect sense. Few however get a chance to a/b/c several brands because shops, for the most part, only carry 3-5 major brands and stay in their lane. They'd have you choose between what they're deep in in the stockroom. Try shops that have the ability to show and demonstrate a wide variety of used or vintage pieces. Those shops have more than likely experience with MANY brands and models and can help steer you in an informed direction. You make the final choice but from an eclectic mix of brands, models, designs and vintages. Having said that, in my own personal experience, I think the Mac or Hegel will match up well with SF, KEF Reference, JM Reynaud and yes, Aerial Acoustics. Have yet to hear a set of SFs or AAs that I wasn't smitten with starting with Cremona Auditor M and Aerial 5T and working up. Thought the KEF Reference One to be such a massive departure from LS50 Metas. JM Renaud Bliss Silver/ Jubilee are fabulous as well. Very limited dealer network but guys in Western Mass are an excellent shop and have the full line. Everyone's got an opinion and know mine is starting mid point of your budget. You can run away with things from there. Anyway, given the info being shared by forum members, I'll agree with the assessments of Sonus Faber, Vandersteen, KEF, Ref 3a, Spendor, ProAc, etc being brands that should be in your crosshairs. GL! A lot of good solid info in these posts,...
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I love my Sabrina X’s. Fantastic speakers, powered by a Pass Labs 250.8 with an ARC REF6. I saw a used pair for $12K. They replaced my Focal Diablo Utopia III’s with a REL sub, which sounded very good with both my Pass and a PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premier HP. In fact, My Pass is back at the factory right now for a checkup and I am driving the Sabrina’s with the PrimaLuna . . . Not in the same league as the Pass Labs, but still sounds good!
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The Rockport Avior ii would do very well in the size room you have. Amazing speakers!
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NSMT 100's! They have a silk dome tweeter so you don't get the Klipsch/B&W/FOCAL sound on the highs and they are amazing at imaging, depth and tone. They have a powered woofer so the amp only pushes the mid and tweeter. 93db efficient. I have owned Klipsch, focal, buckhardt and Zu's and these are end game speakers. Made in USA. Here is Tea Jay's review link. I have no affiliation at all with NSMT or any dealer so this is my honest listening expereience. I have the black front model with cherry sides. Amazing speakers. Using a pass labs XA25 amp.
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They might be hard to audition, but if you're near enough to one of their listening rooms, give Legacy Audio a try. Just the best I've ever hear. Any of their models, just depends on how much you have to spend. I own the Classic HDs. Clear, non-fatiguing, accurate, efficient. And nice to look at.
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What’s your plan for streaming and where are you located?
I’d say Revel Performa F228Be or used Studio2 ?
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And the old Legacy speakers such as the Signature IIIs are made for any type of music and easy to drive with smaller amps, even a 17 watt Sherwood receiver from the 1970s (how I auditioned them). Used on high end gear, they are on par with $10K to $20K speakers. I haven't heard the latest version but used, they sell for $1500 to $2300. Great, deep, tight bass, open sound with rear ambiance tweeter, tonally colorful, not bright or veiled. They are medium sized towers weigh 135 lbs.
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I'll add to the Vandersteen Treo recommendations. I'm not sure what the OP's reference to being too wide actually means but they are bottom ported off the bass driver and can be positioned relatively close to the wall or corners if needed. Dimensionally I don't believe they have a much larger footprint than many of the other floor or stand mount speakers.
My system is in a small 13' x 14' room and sound great with all trypes of music and at low, mid and high volume levels.
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This... Von Schweikert VR-5!
For sale on A-Gon also...
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All great recommendations I think. I’d also give serious consideration to PranaFidelity’s Dhara line. Give Steven Norber at Prana a call. He’s a true gentleman and is a wealth of info. If all you do is just a call, it’ll still be worth your while.
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Undoubtedly, you would be happy with Legacy speakers. I own a pair of Legacy Focus SE’s, and the are exactly what you are looking for. Full range, wonderful ribbon tweeters (top end is smooth, but extended), beautiful midrange, and bottom end that is extended and fast. They image like small monitors (but you’ll have to work with placement (which is true of any speaker). Now this is a pretty large speaker, and if it’s too large for you and your wife, I’d look at other speakers in the Legacy line up…perhaps the Legacy Calibre? Good luck!
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@bgross -Thought the KEF Reference One to be such a massive departure from LS50 Metas. Could you explain how they are different sounding and pleasing or not?
@lucky_doggg7 Yes, They are $18,000 asking price for a formerly $27,000 speaker from a great manufacturer. The last edition VR5 and typically great VS speaker. But the Legacy Sig IIIs and Focus are "cheap" in price relative to their oh so musical performance. I am holding out for a higher end VS speaker to replace my Focus than the VR5s, especially at that price.
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While I'm a huge hegel fan we still have to make sure whatever speakers you get will play good together. With my Kef blades the Hegel is exceptional, with my previous persona 7f I'd heard the speakers sound better with a pathos logos mk2.
British sound isn't what it used to be, but I think the 3 you listed and maybe meridian still fit the description, fat midrange, smooth treble.
I've been buying the speakers I read good things about when I can find them used at or near what I can resell them for and I've learned a lot about how my room sounds and its helped me interpret reviews.
If I was in the market without the ability of an audition right now it would be the Yamaha NS 5000. 12" woofers and all drivers use the same material,
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K-horn and triode power all the way !!!
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@wast314
You have a list of excellent speakers at their price points, and I'll +1 for both Rockport and Joseph Audio.
Beryllium tweeters, like in the Focal, are often reported sounding bright. The B&W 800s tweeters also have a couple of Stereophile measured hot spikes in their frequencies.
I was in the same boat, researching 6yrs to build my audio analog+digital chains from scratch. Speaker preferences are highly subjective, it's best to audition for yourself.
Your favoring the Wilson SabrinaX seems to indicate you like detail, accuracy, neutrality without sounding clinical (lifeless), and the amount of bass energy you're satisfied with.
Without the opportunity to audition, probably the safest choice would be Monitor Audio's Silver, Gold, Platinum lines. They get a very large number of very positive reviews, and it would have been my choice at the $10k level. Take a look at both Stereophile's measurements for Monitor Audio Gold 300 loudspeaker and the Wilson Audio Specialties SabrinaX - both are frequency flat/neutral especially in the treble region.
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If you want get something that can reproduce music properly I recommend JBL4367 if you have the space.
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I don’t like to recommend brands because it sounds biased but your lost of speakers was underwhelming to me.
I think BBC speakers would be a good choice as well as Dynaudio. I tested and listened to about 10 different speakers a while ago, and none of them impressed me aside from Totems, in addition to the above. But it’s unique to everyone’s ears.
I agree with everyone who says "take your time" it will be fun to find the right components
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@wast314
I am interested to see what you buy. We have similar music tastes and your no list of speaker is the same/similar to me. I am likely going with a Benchmark DAC3 (has switching and volume control). The Benchmark amp (I can easily pick up a second). But, man the speakers are tough aren't they. I listed to the SabrinaX and it was amazing. Probably better then my room and ears can make use of for the money. It is hard to find demos without traveling. Please keep us updated as your look and listen so I can check out what you like.
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Listen to as many speakers as possible. I prefer silk dome tweeters - B&W, Focal and others can irritate my ears after long listening sessions. Devore Super Nines are speakers that really impressed me when hearing a Boulder integrated amp.
The speakers will then help you determine options for power. I’ve owned and enjoyed McIntosh and there are equally impressive tub e (ARC) and solid state options (I like Moon).
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OP I would suggest that the Bryston/Focal combo is going to be as harsh as it gets. I would change one thing at time, and see how you like the results. Luxman or Accuphase integrated will get you the meters you like with far better results. Luxman does have headphone jack also.
As for speakers if I was looking for a 180 degree shift from Focal in a bigger brand I would look at SF and Wilson, maybe Magico if budget allows. I would like to hear Harbeth in this scenario also.
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My two favorite affordable systems at AXPONA this year are highly recommended for the OP-
1) The new Luxman 507Z amplifier paired with Harbeth M30.2 XD speakers. Wow what a smooth luxurious high end sound !
2) For something with more snap the Audio Note system with Cobra integrated amp and AN-E D Hemp speakers was outstanding.
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Why upgrade your speakers when you can upgrade your entire system (amp/streamer/speakers/speaker wires) with all in one speakers like the Kef LS60-
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I would take a serious look at the Wilson SabrinaX. I heard them at the dealer and they sounded amazing.
There is a new in box pair advertised on US Audio Mart right now at a discount to list price. Maybe you should check those out?
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Agree with @bfleetwood. Ordered my own pair of Volti Razz a couple weeks ago. I cannot wait!
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I agree with @kota1 . I sampled the KEF LS60 and they're perfect for rock and and home theatre. They're very much a KEF speaker, i.e. no personality (no obvious coloration).
I just have a few nitpicks:
- The design. The LS60 looks a lot like a tower fan. It's not much to look at. The colors are weird and remind me of laundry detergent pods. It's a very modern appliance look, a Bosch logo wouldn't look out of place. They don't look like 7000€, they look like a run of the mill Bose home theatre kit with fancy tweeters. I just can't get over the overly industrial design when everything around us is fake wood, and synthetic fabrics/materials... Give me real wood veneer for the price and now we're talking. Kudos to KEF for standing out nevertheless. Perhaps you could make the LS60 look good next to a beautiful wooden bookshelf and plants to camouflage it. But I digress...
- The KEF LS50 Meta sounded 80% as good for a fraction of the cost. I'm sure the gap between the LS50 and LS60 will close completely if you add a KEF KC62 sub. Yeah it's exactly what you'd expect and it's clear and neutral. To the LS60's credit, it's a complete solution. You don't need to add stands, cables, an amplifier, a streamer with a DAC and a subwoofer and DSP... So an LS50 Meta with all of the fancy electronics and stands will cost almost as much as an LS60.
Ultimately, the LS60 is the easiest speaker in the world to live with. Non-fatiguing. easy to setup. Fullrange sound. It would be pure decadence to ask for more.
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