I would appreciate some help with this, which has happened to me in the last few days. I listed an item on a site, not Audiogon but another one, and got an offer within a few days. The offer was lower than asking price, but reasonable, so I accepted. All of this happened with an exchange of emails. The buyer wanted to send me a deposit which was about 1/4th of the total sales price, and that amounted to a few thousand dollars. He said he would send the rest when the item was shipped. I thought this was a little strange, but agreed to it -- today I received his deposit via Paypal Friends and Family. Somehow I wish now that the money transfer hadn't happened. But the good news is, I have not yet sent him the items.
The guy has very little purchase history on the site that was used to contact me.
He says he has a Freight Forwarder and and will have someone pick up the items. All of this seems suspicious to me. I fear that perhaps I have been paid with a stolen credit card number, for example. Of maybe there is another angle here that I cannot perceive. Has anyone else been through a process like this? I think he is a scammer but don't know for sure.
My policy is to never do a friends and family PayPal transaction with anyone I don’t personally know and when using PayPal will ship only to a PayPal verified address.
Best advise is do nothing. If a stolen card, the transaction will be reversed and the scammer, most likely, moved on. Then report suspected fraud to PayPal and USAM. If contacted by the supposed buyer, explain the payment was reversed (bank verified) and that you decided that you will only do a legitimate PayPal sale transaction, shipped to a PayPal verified address.
Call the bank that issued the card that you received the payment from and inquire if it is a stolen card. Try calling your bank to get the issuing bank's phone number, or ask them if they can advise you how to obtain the number.
As note by dgluke, it is possible for funds to settle from a stolen card and be reversed at a later date. You want as much information as you can possibly get.
I think Barjohn has the best suggestions above for protection.
From the original post I am not sure why everyone thinks its a scam. The guy sent money via pay pal why is that suspicious ? I have been using Pay Pal for years . Sending it through friends and family saves the commission but the buyer loses protection which is the only thing thats strange. I wouldnt say for sure its scam. I also wouldnt say for sure its a stolen CC on pay pal as I am not sure its that easy. That being said I wouldnt send my expensive gear out with only a down payment . Do the full transaction through Pay Pal and you have protection but get the whole thing paid. He too as the buyer has protection by paying all through paypal
Freight forwarder means nothing if the guy is abroad. Not sure why that is a red flag to some. I have done millions of dollars through freight forwarding companies in my lifetime in technology. If the guy is not abroad no forwarder would be needed.
Get paid one way or the other in full before releasing any product
Until you have the funds irrevocably in hand, never release your goods. But if you have a "bad feeling" about a transaction, back away form it.
That said, I've sold to buyers who use freight forwarders with no issue. Their use generally implies the goods are headed overseas. The forwarder completes all the export docs, occasionally the import docs as well, and arranges shipping. Freight forwarders get paid to provide this service. Having exported equipment, I'd rather pay someone to take care of all this.
Worth repeating: until you have the funds irrevocably in hand, never release your goods.
If anyone says you ship first and only after shipping confirmation (or pick up) then you get paid balance amount- that is a red flag. I have paid deposits or partial payment initially to secure the sale- that is ok but any mention of shipping before payment is a scammer at work. Shipping should be after you receive payment or at time of pick up (local transaction).
Actually if one were to think on this idea of a scam or being ripped off or being susceptible to propaganda or psychological operations campaign(s) directed at a target audience we have to accept we all are fooled to different degrees. It is up to each of us to figure this out. Even something as simple as advertisement. How often have you watched or listened to a commercial for a product or service that offered something much better than you got? That's what advertising is intended to do.
Playing you for a fool. The only thing you can do, is nothing. If you respond to a single inquiry, you’ll play into his hand. This will all go away on its own. When the illegal funds are found, they will disappear from your bank account. If you send any money back to the buyer before that, that money will be the scam you are trying to figure out. Just wait it out. Do nothing. Don’t click on a response from the buyer, the shipping company or any escrow service in your inbox.
The business I used to work for ran in to this sort of thing all the time. Any payment method that is not perfectly normal is almost certainly a scam. Any shipping pickup that they arrange must absolutely have full payment before pickup.
A simple solution is to tell the seller that any freight company coming to pick up the item must pay 100% of the amount in cash and you will refund his deposit via PayPal. No cash, no sale.
Other things you can do is offer to ship to his verified PayPal address. If he doesn't have a PayPal account but is using PayPal for payment that is another red flag. You have no protection when payment is via friends & family. I would rather lose 3% or 3.5% (Whatever PayPal is charging) by issuing an invoice and being paid on the invoice and have recourse than lose it all. Then only agree to ship to a verified PayPal address with buyer paying shipping and PayPal fees.
The reason they want to send their shipper to your door is that you would have no recourse to 'stop shipment' and initiate a 'return to sender's base' if it all goes fraudulent in the middle of it being shipped.
If they initiate shipping, it is entirely out of your hands the moment the shipping company arrives and it is in their hands. Even if you found out it is fraudulent and the shipping company is still in your driveway, you are beat.
. This is why when buying expensive gear I look local so if there is a problem it will get resolved face to face. I will close with this old chestnut better safe than sorry.
Beware, this is a classic scam. It is not about the product to be purchased. It is about a “refund “ of the deposit. The deposit funds are not valid. The “buyer “ will either someone to pick up the item before payment is made, or with false payment and take away the item. They prey on making you feel guilty for questioning the transaction.
Or, after you question the transaction with them , they say just refund the “deposit “ . The reality is the “deposit “ isn’t real. Stolen credit card probably, maybe even a cashiers check. If you refund the funds , they get the money, stolen card or not.
I worked in the jewelry industry for over 40 years and I can’t even begin to tell you how many times this was tried on me or my employees . The new guys would fall for it every time.
The reality is , if a buyer wants to purchase an item they pay for it all with verifiable funds. As a buyer, I don’t mind a little caution as this problem can work both ways. I recently had a seller of a car try to scam me for payment without seeing the car. It’s in the warehouse, it’s at my sons in another state, and my all time favorite “I’m listing this for a friend”.
Not to cry wolf, in our area we have had a lot of people trying to buy with counterfeit cash!!! The top bill is real, the rest is bad. One poor girl got scammed out of a car because she didn’t check.
Anyway, know this if I want to buy, I’m real. My funds are real. I am cautious and careful with my funds.
My recommendation is to keep the funds and product until all the funds are verified before delivery. If the buyer gets angry, just explain the caution. If it’s real they won’t mind. If it’s not, they still get angry, but so what you still have your product.
I have sold items on Craigslist for many years. This scheme reminded me when a couple of years ago, I was selling an audio rack that I no longer used. It was a 5 shelf thing very sturdy. I got a response the first day. The buyer said to take the listing down as it was sold. I was asking $150 and he was sending me $175 and he would have his freight company contact me for pickup. I was thinking freight company for a $150 audio rack. No way. I said no thanks. It had to be a stolen credit card scheme.
Whether it is a scam or not, who in their right mind would agree to sell an expensive item online for only a fourth of the money up front? Life is too short to put yourself through such anguish. Lesson learned.
Classic scam. Whenever the words "freight forwarder" shows up, you know it is the classic stolen credit card scam. Buyer uses stolen credit card, you send item, actual credit card owner disputes charge, money gets reversed, you’re out the item. It’s one of the oldest scams in the book. That one has been going on well before the internet even existed. Although we haven’t seen it for a while at our small business, we used to get the occasional phone call of someone wanting to purchase an item over the phone; often times from another country, and the minute they mention the freight forwarder BS we knew it was a fake. If the credit card is declined they’ll cheerfully give you another, and another if necessary until they get one that goes through. By the time the credit card owner finds out, your item is long gone, never to be seen again, (by you at least). In this case, it adds insult to injury that the scammer didn’t even bother to "pay" the full amount.
If you contacted an online seller such as Upscale Audio or Schiit and asked how much of a deposit do you need for an order to be shipped, what do you think they'll tell you?
You weren't smart to accept it, and it has to be a scam first of all because of the partial payment...first red flag, and second, he says he'll arrange for freight to pick it up. I don't think that's possible. If you have a freight company pick up an item, they want it to be packed and on a pallet when they arrive for pickup. How would he arrange that?
It’s 1000% a scam, they do this on craigslist all the time. They want your item and they will have their people arrange shipping or pickup or whatever, it’s a fraud scam to rip you off for sure... They run these operations out of India and other places
It may be a scam, and it may not. I have sent thousands of $ friends and family after I convinced myself the seller was up and up. But if I am even a little bit unsure, I take actions to protect myself.
I suggest telling him the truth:
"I am uncomfortable shipping this item until I have been fully paid. If you don't want to do the deal, that is ok. I will refund your deposit. But I can not ship until I have full payment."
He will probably argue. Stick to your guns. Be ready to walk away. If he suggests something even more convoluted, refuse. The more complicated it gets, the more likely it is a scam.
There is no problem refunding the paypal payment. Paypal works by reversing the payment, It isn't a way to launder money. Now if you initiate a new payment to him instead of refunding his, that is a different story.
If the hairs on the back of your neck are standing up, get out. Red flags all over this one.
Cancel the transaction. Wait to refund until funds have fully settled, or until PayPal agrees they will cover you if buyer used a stollen card (and not take funds from your general account to cover bad funds due to buyer malfeasance).
Iam buying a troubadour audio mirror dac at audio mart , slowly the mode of payment keeps on changing,according to the seller choice like payment thru PayPal family or fiends? I did not pursue the deal, something inside of me is telling me don’t do it.
The answer was from Paypal was to just refund the deposit. If he went to his bank to claim he had not received the item, Paypal would support me by informing the bank that in fact his money had returned.
I have asked him to call me, still not sure that it is illegitimate. But guess what, no call yet! Thanks to everyone who tried to help.
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