Is it ever enough?

Harvey Rosenberg, of New York Audio Labs fame, addressed our audio club years ago. He talked quite a bit about the significance of music to mankind from the beginning of time to modern times....from communicating with the Gods, to mating rituals, to just relaxing after work. Then he went on to talk about how we each have a unique sensitivity to the fidelity level of music playback systems and recorded music in general. Sort of a "miminum requirements" level that it takes before we can actually experience music playback in a similarly way that we experience actual music. Some can achieve that level with an am car radio....others need panel speakers and elaborate playback systems to be convinced. Most audio buffs seek an uncommon fidelity level to be satisfied, which is what sets us apart from someone happy listening to music on their phone.

My system reached that critical level years ago, and has even improved a fair amount since then, but let’s face it.....some recordings suck, and no matter how good your system is, a poorly recorded track isn’t gonna cut it. The vast majority of the time I get sucked into the performance when listening, but every once in a while, I get up and change the album because it was more of an annoyance than a pleasure....no system will cure that.

The thread title says it all.
Are you ever satisfied? Will you ever stop tinkering?

Nah......
Will I make a lot of expensive mistakes along the way? Yep.
Is it worth it, though, when it just.......hits?

Yeah.

It all matters, and when it works well, it sounds great. It’s a synergy thing.

I am blessed.


And so are you. Happy Listening!

I've assembled a LOT of systems. Generally I'm happy if I feel I'm getting everything that particular set of loudspeakers can give. Placement and component changes may be near unending until I reach the point where I think further changes will be unfruitful. But the end of tinkering happens quickly and I get back to listening to music. That is key for me. If I can play my music satisfactorily, I'm good.  

As knotscott sez.

Knotscott said it all. It wouldn’t be a hobby if we didn’t like messing around with it for better or worse.

Typical human beings like to *do* as well as *enjoy.* 
"Tinkering" is a perfect word -- it's like "sauntering" or "rambling." It's an activity which produces enjoyment via interaction.
There is an old trope about "audiophilia nervosa" which always gets hauled out in order to diagnosis the "sick" audiophile.
But often, they're not sick at all; they just want to interact with their technology. 
The notion that the audiophile just just tweak until things are perfect and then stop doing anything is almost as perverse as the idea of Heaven -- which as David Byrne sang, is a place "where nothing ever happens." 

Hopefully “it” is never enough.

To me it’s about the journey. When it is enough, then my journey is over. I do however believe that more folks on the forum want to reach the destination, so hopefully they get to a place where it’s enough.

I pray I never get to the perfect system.

My main hobby used to be mountain biking. Until A unfortunate accident four years ago turn me into a quadriplegic. Audio has replaced mountain biking for me.
 When you look at mountain biking as a hobby you have the equipment, which would be the bike and you’re either riding the bike or tinkering with the bike. Having audio as a hobby, you have the equipment, which would be the stereo and you’re either listening to the stereo….or…? There’s really no need to tinker with the equipment. It’s kind of what’s missing about the hobby of audio. You don’t need to tinker with the equipment but that doesn’t stop guys from doing it.

  personally I think that’s what makes guys go crazy about cables, power cords, fuses,bi-wire, interconnects, etc. it’s and easy and cheap way to interact with your equipment. There’s a whole industry within audio that feeds on the need  people have to interact with their stereo. Millions of dollars change hands every year for the tiniest of changes that a product may or may not make in a guys system. it’s easier to spend a few hundred here and there to feed that inner beast then it is to save thousands to buy a new piece of equipment. After being in this forum the past few years I’ve viewed call different sizes of beasts That need to be fed. How big is your inner beast?

Thank you, Ray.For me, your post was moving and thoughtful and insightful. I wonder how many other forum members are in a life circumstances in which audio is much more important to them than it is to me, despite my feeling as though it’s a big priority in my life.

When I make changes intending them as a remedy for something deficient, I don’t always know if that emerges from an inability to be satisfied and happy with what I have, or as a legitimate process of improvement.

Perfect example of why the First Audiophile Commandment is Know Thyself. This probably more than anything else accounts for why I am so happy with my system and all my components over the last 12-15 years. It only took me about 25 years to figure out. But the good news is most of those 25 years were spent not knowing the First Commandment. So now I got that going for me.

https://youtu.be/X48G7Y0VWW4?t=62

Okay not Total Consciousness but what am I the Dalai Lama?

What else would ya be doing ?

Swinging a perfectly balanced double on a bird

Working in telepathy with a bird dog who forgives your miss, to a point

Dialing in camber for a tenth

Barrel tasting for sport, and a tweak

Putting eight big kings in the box by 8 am and pointing Das Boot at you halibut hole waypoint 26 nm away…

Rolling tube dampers into your 85A2 tubes, because you can

Searching out a Zevon Compton promo pressing hot stamper, because a buddy turned you on to it…

Treadmill, saltmine, or THE reason for life…your call 100%

You can sleep when you are dead

What are you talking about?

@ebm the endless pursuit of better across myriad interests. Even brevity, you could work on that…get it down to two words…

I think personality has something to do with it as well. Some are the “set and forget” types and others the “tinkers”. It can be audio, cars, bikes, whatever. Those of us that are tinkerers, tinker with everything we have. Some one said it above, a direct interaction with our “stuff”. Sometimes, the pursuit is betterment, but other times, it’s just because we can. For those that are the “set and forget” type, I’m jealous. My life would be WAY less expensive!

Excellent question. I made the mistake of trying to improve some speakers I own. Now 5 months into it I realize I need to go back
to where I was and sh-t can the time and money I am into this
upgrade. My own fault for the way it turned out. But in the future
when everything is sounding great, I need to learn to say 'Done'.

I am saving up now for something I probably do not need...!!!

Earlier in the year I thought I would build my own bi-wire speaker cable set from amp to speaker. I had some adequate cable and bought some sheathing to cover them plus a set of gold plated spade lugs. In the end they made no difference at all. I ended up going back to my old ones and eventually bought a nice new set from Morrow. Oh well it kept me busy for several days. 

There is value in the pursuit, the tinkering, but I look forward to a day when I will be content; I'm just not sure I'll get there.

Yup, if the recording sucks, or a particular pressing sucks, I don’t care how much you spend on your system...it will still suck...no truer words were ever spoken...people in this hobby need to eventually come to terms with their income/budget...eventually, it starts to become a bit insane as far as what you are spending, and constantly trading up. I’ve come to terms, and feel that what I presently own will suffice. However, I am still not ruling out that brand new Linn Sondek TT...maybe some day...😁

FD,,, exactly.
 I think that contentedness can be approached externally through attempting to provide particular circumstances, which is hard to manage and often  transient, or it can be a function of internal attitude, which can evolve to be able to be more content independent of circumstances.

Perhaps a two-pronged approach gives us the best chance.

i’m at that end game point in my system building journey......and am about to retire in a year or so. so it’s asset allocation time. do i want to continue to have as much in my hifi commitment (including my separate hifi building), or do i cash in some hifi chips and switch my focus to other pass-times?

i have worked 6 days a week for almost 50 years.....hifi was my life balance i could do every day to recover. but without my work stress will hifi continue to occupy my time enough to pull it's weight in my life balance?

sure; i could still make small system changes to what i have, but it would be sideways moves to do just to keep my fires burning......and my hifi muscles loose.

check back in 12-18 months and we will see.

it might have been ’enough’. :-)

and my ’enough’ i think is plenty.

I have plenty of recordings that "suck" but the music is incredible. Most of them are just a product of their times. It is like looking at an antique. Take the trim off a stunning Philadelphia high boy and you will see the most awful dovetailing. It was viewed differently back then. 

Audio is a maze. You head down a path and run into a dead end. You turn around, take a different route and bump your nose again. Over time you learn what paths lead to a dead end and eventually find a right path. Hopefully, along the way you learn how things work and how to do manipulate the technology to your purpose. 

I started young. I got my first record player at the age of 4. My father had a great system in it's day making my own players sound like sh-t. So, I started down the path of improvement. I built my first Dynakit at the age of 13. Using a soldering iron was a necessity as I could not afford anything but kits. I had to earn the money to buy everything. Used equipment was the rule otherwise. It has been a long evolutionary process with several long periods of stasis (children are expensive.) I have always had an upgrade path in mind and I am on a roll again. Technology moves on and I am an early adopter. There is always room for improvement and I do not expect to stop any time soon. The kids are on their own and my wife and I do not have a very expensive lifestyle.  There is money to burn and I plan on burning it. 

Mike... best of luck.
Adopting an attitude embodying curiosity and interest in how things unfold is fun, isn't it?

I'm DONE!

Well, perhaps a better Mono Stylus based on listening to Miles Davis Sketches of Spain the other night. I realized, modern mono lps are worthy of more than elliptical.

I'm 75 in 2 years, I'll have to cook up some desire by then, shouldn't be hard.

Oh yeah, there's an unsightly hole in my rack from getting rid of the Oppo 105, something needs to fill it.

Elliot... maybe a nice ceramic Buddha with a few post-its proclaiming his take on Desire would do the trick. (:

What a great thread. I feel like I’m listening to comments at an alcoholics anonymous meeting. I’ve been in those church basementsfor 25 years and there’s more  that audio files and alcoholics share in common than they don’t. Lol

I think the need to tinker is an important part of your quality of life!

The secret IMHO however is to build instead of buy.  Get your hands dirty.  Play with parts.  Solder something.  Glue a speaker together.  You'll be able to tinker a great deal more and get hands on experience.

Best,

Erik

It's a passion, it's a way of life, it's an illness.

I haven't figured out how to "critical listen" without comparison. With comparison comes judgement and with judgement comes change.  No mater how good it is, it can always be better.  My current system is good enough but not perfect and never will be but I'll get closer,  There may not be a single current component left but It'll get closer.  Some day I'll be able to tell whether the guy covered his mouth when he coughed in the audience. 
Thank you lord for an understanding wife.

Ray, I agree. Perhaps it’s because the topic is personal and non-empirical, and therefore doesn’t foster contentiousness. After all, who has an objective reply that they want to stand behind and get others to believe also?

Mike - congrats on thinking about retirement, it’s a transition. I spend wayyyyy more time on music and giving back than gear. I have had a lot of stability in my core reference system. The churn and itch is in another system.

Best to you

Jim

@knotscott,

Ah, the one and only Harvey Rosenberg, or to give him his full title:

Dr. Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg  Guildmeister, The Triode Guild  Thermionic Techno-shaman.

Perhaps the most original writer on audio we have yet seen, and the doyen of the audiophile tinkerers worldwide. However in his case the experimenting was never without a clear purpose or aim.

Harvey had strongly held opinions about audio and he stuck to them.

Harvey probably also did more for the cause of the Tannoy Dual Concentrics in the modern era than anyone else.

Who else but Harvey would dare to mod a Tannoy Westminster?


https://www.meta-gizmo.org/index.html

I do in fact have ceramic buddha sitting just in front of system.While I try to remain ever mindful of negative aspects of desire, audiophile fever brings upgrade hallucinations.

It's a journey not a destination

Perfection and excellence are a pursuit and rarely achieved

All excellent systems have a weakest link, it may be a darn good weakest link but it's still the current shortcoming in the overall landscape

Personally speaking, never being done is part of the appeal for me

Not to mention, tis the nature of technology, better and new things are being brought to market faster and with greater frequency than ever

It's incumbent upon us to evolve at a reasonable rate or get left behind

Just don't let the next step impose on getting maximum enjoyment and pleasure with your current set up

Enjoy the journey

@erik_squires ...*s*  Precisely.

Listening to a pair of speakers that I've 'heavily modified' to 'be, or not to be'...and they 'are', is gratifying.

Having such actually sound pleasant, and respond in the manner hoped for is, as noted 'round 'n about, priceless.

I may have invested more time than treasure in the pursuit, but the end result of listening to that which ones' 'tinkering' wrought beats the bejeez out of merely buying ones' way out with the 'next new thing'.  Or the side-step to swap Xd to Xr for the next new nuance.

It finally occurred to self that the response of offered components had outstripped my ability to hear nothing more than 'small differences' in recordings that suffered more from their resident qualities than my equipment had or has.

It may be considered a 'false ceiling', and the stone needs to have more pressure applied to squeeze that last bit from it.  And it could be noted that I'm more or less doing that, anyway.

It's OK to wave a white flag and step away from the fray.
It gives one the chance to retreat, regroup, and return to the field with different 'weapons'....;)

Good variable factors to us all, y'all. 👍

I have been going through this process where I started out thinking in one direction with equipment but then being intrigued by reading others’ experiences in other directions. The equipment I originally bought beginning in early 2020 now doesn’t jive so well with new pieces I would like to sample. As I am a buyer and not a seller, I don’t want to acquire too much equipment that will end up on a storage shelf because they don’t work with my evolving interest.

Example: I started out thinking my music would be digital, with radio as a steady backup for casual listening. I thought of records as old technology, with memories of all the crackles and pops of my youth. I never thought about tubes — weren’t those the things we gladly parted ways with when the miracle of solid state arrived?

So I got a SS amp and preamp, and a tuner, and some tower speakers, and a couple of subs. I had my 30 year old Pioneer CD changer that didn’t sound so bad. I’m set, right? Not exactly. I read here about the bliss of high quality phono music; that the crackles were due to my never knowing how to clean the records right. I’m not sure about this and don’t want to invest a lot of money if it turns out that records are garbage. I buy a $300 turntable and an $80 Spin Clean, and I’m furiously cleaning and playing records. Pretty good, but not sonic nirvana.

Then I read that a “decent” TT probably costs at least $2,000, and the same amount for a decent vacuum record cleaning machine that sucks gunk right out of the grooves! Really? And I read that my old CD changer is junk and that a need to buy a high quality CD . . preferably transport . . . and then I need to buy a dac to play it. So I do — I give my changer to a nephew and buy a CD transport that some people seem to like, and a small dac. I’m set, right? (Except for the crappy TT and record washer)

I keep hearing about the magic of the “tube sound”, and again I’m intrigued. I could spend thousands but decide to buy the $1000 Freya+. So I swap that in place of my SS preamp . . but now I need a phono stage to play my turntable! It just keeps happening like this, changing directions and now more equipment is needed to play with the new additions. And I still don’t have a dedicated streamer, though there is one in my Bluesound Vault 2i, but then that might not be good enough to obtain quality sounds.

And my Martin Logan towers probably are not good enough, but I don’t have room to properly position speakers anyway, and certainly not enough for the planars everyone raves about. Yeah, my listening room is just inadequate and I need to move to another house or build on to this one to have a dedicated listening room with all the necessary room treatments, the dedicated electrical lines and special audio-grade receptacles. But then my cables are crap and I need to spend thousands to upgrade them!

My head hurts. Maybe I was better off before?

This is a very common phenomena  in our hobby. There are always unintended consequences when we make a change in our systems. Most of our systems are in a state of flux  in actual components or in our minds.  For better or worse, that is the essence of many hobbies. Most audiophiles brains are both right and left activated, constantly shifting back and forth from the music to its reproduction… it’s all good!

@ erik_squires

The secret IMHO however is to build instead of buy. Get your hands dirty. Play with parts. Solder something. Glue a speaker together. You’ll be able to tinker a great deal more and get hands on experience.

I think you’re onto something, and is perhaps is one of the reasons I’m fairly satisfied. I built my speakers from scratch, rebuilt my amps, rebuilt my preamp, modified my TT, and even pieced together my own speaker wires.

DIY increases knowledge and appreciation for what you have, plus you might even have some luck tailoring things to your liking.  The budget goes a lot farther too.

It is easy to get to enough once you understand what makes the sound you want.  Every one has their own preferences.  So opinions are just that.  Get to understand what works for you and then you can be done.

For many the hunt is more rewarding than the kill.