Integrated vs. Separates on a Budget

Integrated, after that the next step is separates but you'll need more budget for that. 

Second the integrated idea. $3000.00 will get a lot better integrated than seperates,IMHO.

Belles Aria preamp and amp $3500 new

No question - Integrated at that budget.  Take a look at Raven Audio.

Thanks guys!

Any more recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Klimt

Take a serious look at the Quicksilver Integrated as well as the Belles Aria Integrated.

Bel Canto C5i also, can be had for cheap as the new 6i is out.

I Robot.

Integrated here as well.   You can buy something really nice used for that budget 

Given the budget amount, the best sound is likely integrated. Then If you want to improve to the next level of sound quality you can add a individual component… like first preamp, the m amp, then streamer.. or something like that.., if you want to go to the next level.

I bought a used McIntosh Integrated amp (MA6500) in pristine condition from Audio Classics 2 years ago for $2500. It’s definitely worth checking their website periodically. 

@klimt,

Maybe look at the Schiit Freya + preamp and Vidar amp. Total cost :$1700, or a Ragnarok integrated amplifier $1500.

If you have efficient speakers ( 90+ ), check out the VINCENT HYBRID, SV 200.....(25 WPC x 8 ohms, 35 x 4). It may surprise you......definitely surprised me.

CHEERS.....

Integrated on a budget every time these days.  Check out Cambridge Evo all in one and be done.  

A used Parasound A21+ and a new Topping pre90 ($600) will get you to $3K. It is a very good combo. I have my A21+ for sale but I think I will trade it in to a dealer on Wednesday (USAudiomart). There are even cheaper A21+ on sale on that site.

The Topping pre90 does not work with all amps but does work great with the A21+ and Benchmark AHB2. Stereophile will review the pre90 in February, which is a bit shocking for such a low-cost item. I use the pre90 with a pair of AHB2's. It is an excellent system if you like neutrality. The A21+ is much warmer and an excellent amp for the price.

Slightly over budget, but worth the extra.

You should list these things before any realistic recommendation! 

1. What speakers are you using?

2. What size is your room?

3. Do you want tubes or SS?

4. New or used?

5. What features do you need?

I agree you should go for an integrated unit. The only challenge is deciding which brand to purchase because there are many good ones out there at or close to your budget.

Parasound Halo Integrated Hint6

Thanks Guys!  You're awesome!

I actually posted this in another thread.   I'd really like a good pre amp and streaming capability while staying under budget, if possible.

I've been wanting to upgrade my system for a long time now.

My system currently consists of a pair of B&W 630's, an old Denon 50 watt reciever (DRA-550) from the mid 80's,  and a Marantz 5004 cd player.  I'm pretty happy with all three.

I'm looking to get into vinyl and The Project Debut Carbon turntable was recommended.  I listened to it but wasn't amazed by it. So I sent it back.

I then called my local audio store and the salesman said that if the system sounds good with cds but not with the turntable then the weak link is probably the phono pre amp.

So, he recommended the NAD C388 integrated amp which has the added benefit of more power (150 watts per channel) and bluetooth as well (something I definitely want).  He did qualify it by saying that reciever/amp technology hasn't changed much over the years.

He also recommended an upgrade of the turntable cartridge to the Sumiko Rainier.

Just thinking out loud.  I'd be open to adding a bluetooth and a new phono preamp to the Denon, but I'm not sure if that would be better.

PS. Someone mentioned that the NAD had a cooler sound, but I definitely prefer a warmer sound.  HTH

I think it's time to upgrade the Denon. It has a nice sound, but I'm looking for something better.

TIA

Another vote for Parasound Halo integrated

You should list these things before any realistic recommendation! 

1. What speakers are you using? B&W DM630's

2. What size is your room? Not sure. 12 x 17 l love the room. Makes a huge difference.

3. Do you want tubes or SS?  I prefer a warmer sound not sure if SS can be that.

4. New or used? Used is ok if it still has a warranty.

5. What features do you need?  A good preamp and streaming capability. Definitely want these. Again, TIA

Take a look at the Rogue Cronus Magnum III in that price range. Decent enough internal phono (especially if you're just now getting into vinyl).  Used ones pop up fairly often too.

I'm an integrated guy, so another vote for integrated.

I don't know your  speakers, but I'm wondering if 3k is a large amp investment relative to your current speaker investment (3x?).

If you are pat with the B&Ws for the foreseeable future, I wonder if you couldn't be quite happy with a lower investment in the amp, with more budget for doing things like sorting out the vinyl.

Thanks again everyone!

Klimt

Lots of good advice. You should also add Black Ice Audio, formerly Jolida, to your audition list. IMHO, the current best value in tube audio.

I will buy a used Parasound A21 $1200 and Parasound P6 used $800-1000

but most importantly it depends on your speakers 

How so lordrootman?

One thing Lordrootman is probably wondering about efficiency. Correct me if I'm wrong -- It looks like your speakers are claimed at 91db.  Given that manufacturers routinely overclaim on this, they are probably less efficient than that, meaning they are relatively low efficiency.

Nothing wrong with that, but it does mean you will most likely need an amp with a bit more power.

For example, a 3k budget gets you in tickling distance of a used Pass INT-30A (or perhaps a demo 25A).  It's a lovely piece (I had one for several years), which could be the heart of an aspirational system for many years.  But at 30 wpc, it won't be the best match with your current speakers (unless they are considerably more efficient than I thought), and will seriously constrain future speaker choices.

So for you, something like Parasound (or perhaps Hegel?), with more juice, would probably be a better choice, even though you'll be hard pressed to match the sweetness of the Pass.

In addition to the Halo, Parasound now has the "new classic," which seems to go for 1300, which would be a good pricepoint to hit.

jdoris

Thanks for the info.  Could you post a link for the Parasound 'new classic'.

TIA

Also,  I think I read somewhere that the Parasound does not have a pre amp.  Could you recommend a good, but relatively cheap one?

And I definitely want streaming capability which ( I think) the Parasound doesn't have. 

Another recommendation would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again.

Yes, according to Google the speakers have a 91db efficiency.

My mistake. Doesn't have a phono amp.
 

Whoops!

The Parasound  New Classic integrated has an inboard dac, while the Halo (Parasound makes both integrated and separates under "Halo" & "New Classic") seems not to.

The entry level Hegel, the H95, supports streaming like AirPlay, as I think does the rest of the line.  Looks like it goes for 2000 new. As you go up the line, the wpc increases from the 95's 60, which might be nice for your 91db speakers, depending on your listening habits.  Lots of press on Hegel, see what you think.

Thanks jd!

Forgive me if you answered this, but which integrated amp do you recommend that has enough power and the features I"m looking for?

Also, that's in my budget.

What do you think of the NAD c388?

under my budget

I live in Suffolk County NY.  Anyone know of some good places to demo the gear?

AudioDen's showroom is under construction.   I'd normally go there.

TIA

Your speakers are worth around $ 500 so it’s overkill to match it with a 3K amp, integrated or not ... your Denon is probably a good match for them ... you can get another amp but I doubt you’ll hear a 3K difference because of your speaker’s limit ... and if you do get another amp, I’m pretty sure that you’ll want to change your speakers too ... and since it makes more sense to match an amp to a speaker then vice versa, I suggest you start looking for another pair of speakers and only then try to get a better amp ... speakers’ choice is very important because you buit your system around it... my 2¢...

allaindexe, 

I hear what your saying, but I'm very happy with my speakers.  You might be right about the 3K difference though. The salesman at my local audio store said amp technology has not changed since the mid 80's.

TIA

TBS

As I mentioned I'm looking to get back into Vinyl and want to get a new turntable.

I'm considering this entry level table : Pro-Ject-Debut-Carbon-EVO.

I think the Denon's phono stage needs to be upgraded.  I'd also would like the option to stream.

TIA

Thanks though.  I really appreciate everyone's help.

Schiit Ragnarak may be good leaving you money for other nicities. I think it’s about $1500. Most have given it good reviews. 60W @ 8ohms should be enough to run your speakers.

The Parasound should sound good with the B&W as well.  More power with a warmer sound.

I couldn’t find the impedance curves for this speaker but I would find out before you go with a tube setup. Some B&W have crazy impedance graphs.

Maybe you could afford a sub with money left over.

untill the late 80's, phono stages in receivers and integrated amp we're pretty good because hifi manufacturers wanted people to buy their products and people would test these with a turntable... so my take is that the denon's phono stage is good enough for now... you could simply buy a cheap turntable and a DAC which has the streaming option... AL

I’d say it somewhat depends on whether you see yourself continuing to upgrade in the future, or if you’ve lived with the Denon for years and just want something better. If this is a one-time upgrade, then something like the Parasound integrated would be an excellent choice. It has a built-in phono stage and DAC, as well as two outputs to add subs if you ever decide to do that. You can find them used for under your budget and then spend a bit more on a turntable.

However, if (like almost all of us :)) you want to continue to seek better sound in the future, then separates make a lot of sense because you can upgrade the preamp or the amp as you continue on your hifi journey. You can certainly get great sound from separates at around $3,000. For example, the Aric Audio Unlimited II is $1350 new, and it’s an exceptional tubed preamp. You can pair that with something like a Parasound A23+ ($1699 new), and you’ll have a great system (sorry, I went $49 over your budget). And you can often find the A23+ used or discounted as a demo/open box at places like Audio Advisor. And there are plenty of very capable ss amps from reputable manufacturers that come up used here on Audiogon and at places like The Music Room that are well under your budget.

You can enjoy a setup like the Aric/Parasound for many years. And if (when) you get the upgrade bug, you have a lot of options to explore in either amps (tube amps, class d amps) or preamps.

Hope this helps, and enjoy the hunt for new gear.

Cheers, Scott

The Belles Aria integrated can be found used for around $1300.  It sounds very sweet.  Beautiful sounding little amp.  It supposedly has a decent phone pre as well.  I’d pair it with a streamer (maybe bluesound node) and a good dac (budget $800-$1000 for the dac.

I had a Belles Aria and loved it. I now have a Kinki EX-M1, which I love as well.

Another option that I recommend often is a pair of LS50 wireless 2 (meta version) and a pair of matching Rel subs.  For around $5k its hard to beat

Thanks guys!

Can I hook up the bluesound node streamer with my Denon with out an added DAC?

If a DAC is needed could you recommend a good albeit relatively cheap one.

Forgive my ignorance.

Klimt

I am not disputing any of the recommendations made in any way since I have not kept up with the integrated market. However, I am surprised at the unanimity of the preference for integrated. Took a quick look at the used pre and power amps listed here. Honest question: are you guys suggesting that the mentioned integrateds are a better sounding option than, for instance, these classics (no affiliation):

BTW - This is a one time upgrade.

+1 on the Rogue Cronus Magnum.  I have the II and I believe the phono pre is improved on the III.  I am using a separate phono stage because I already had one, but it was pretty good in the Magnum II.  It has plenty of power to drive Ohm Walsh 5000’s, 87db, louder than I want to listen.

I have run speakers that most would be considered to be outclassed by my electronics for a couple of decades. Your interest in an integrated is appropriate and will get the most out of your speakers. Should you ever decide to upgrade, then you know you can upgrade your speakers and have an amp to support them.

As far as your salesman saying “The salesman at my local audio store said amp technology has not changed since the mid 80’s” The is categorically misleading and patently false. The performance levels since the 80’s has changed profoundly. This is the kind of statement to come from a salesman where I would politely as for the manager and see if the manager actually knows anything about audio.