I recently decided to sell my Raganlj 2 in favor of a Unico Primo integrated ($1999, until 1.2 then it reverts to $2499. Today I got a Vincent SV237 to audition for $2795.
So far I really like the Vincent. Tube in the preamp stage. Has a built in DAC although I doubt it competes with my Gungnir. Tone controls you can switch out. I really like this. I have several speakers and that will come in handy to dial each in. The build quality is excellent but the sucker weighs 45 pounds! Deisgned in German and made in... where se? China. The Primo is made in Italy. The Primo is a little toppy but you can manage it with tube rolling. A Sovtek, or Gold Lion 12ax7 beats the factory tube. Also like a NOS RCA 12ax7. Nod goes to the Vincent.
I can only speak to my experience as I’m in the same budget range. I am happy with a $950 Freya+ and a little tube rolling I have not heard the Vidar at $700 but a pair of Aegir class A amps with 80 WPC would cost you $1600. Throw in a good interconnect XLR and you hit your $3k limit. You will not be disappointed in the sound. I tried a Unico Primo integrated with a single 1AX7 in the preamp state. Good amp but a little too lively for me. $2K until 1.2.202 then goes back to $2500.
One that I’m interested in that people see to like is the Vincent SV-237 at $2705. Tubes in the preamp and a reputation for being on the warm fuller side of things. Not that well review but I liked on Upcale Audios web site and it has five stars.
I think the build quality on the Vincent and Unico are a step above the Schiit. For what it’s worth. I own also own a Schiit Ragnok and it’s a good solid integrated. Solid hitter at $1500. Probably better than some selling for at least $500 more just to keep a lid on the hyperbole.
I always believe the sound path should be as shortest as possible. Therefore, no preamp is necessay. What you need are a powerful, high current, clean sounding amp, a well-versed, articulate DAC and a streamer if you desire.
NC 2250 has a sweet, warm sounding and it will pair well with the B&W speakers that tend to be bright. I had its little brother NC2150 and the older model A23. A23 is articulate on top but lack a bit punch on the low end relative to NC2150. NC2150 is more toner balanced with a weighty low end. I think the NC2250 won't disappoint you. $3k is tight on the high end gear and the Parasound NC series is high-end gear without a intimidating factor.
I noted in your comments you desire a warranty if used. That is not usually the case unless from some dealers in demo units. I think generally a $2-3k integrated will be superior to $1500 or so each separates. There may be some exceptions but you will need to include cabling which adds more expense and you take the risk of needing to find synergy...not always apparent. Parasound makes good performing, high value gear and there is a NIB Hint6 here on the Gon. I would be all over that at $2400, with warranty, $600 below retail. I would also check out Audio Advisor online and shipping out of MI. They offer good brands and returns. I have bought various items from them over 20 years. I recently heard both the Rogue CM and Sphinx v3 and was impressed for the cost. I dont see the CM as a tube sounding amp and there is the heat output issue. It would not work for me in HI but that would be the only reason I would not buy one. It sounds very good. Heard the earlier HINT a number of years ago and was impressed but bought instead the Marantz PM8005, now 8006. It was vergy good sounding, had good power, made in Japan, 3 year warranty and could bypass or use tone controls, also enabled 2 sets of speakers. It has perfromed well for the last 5 years in a main system and now an office. The suggestion of the new Marantz 7000 is a good one for a goo entry level quality amp with dac and streamer. I have had good luck over 40 years with various Marantz pieces and even with other good high end brands in sysems I still find this brand delivers. BTW, Wally Underwood has an excellent NIB Marantz PM KI amp for $2400 vs 4k retail. I saw it on his site tonight. That would be a great amp AND a steal. Good Luck.
I'm a big fan of the Marantz PM7000N. It's the most flexible, best sounding, reliable integrated amp available for $1200. Factory rated at 80w/ch into 4 ohms, it drive most demanding speakers like my KEF LS-50s and Magnepan 1.7s easily. It also a streamer, and has above average DAC and phono preamps as well as both preamp and subwoofer outputs.
While I can't fault the Chronus Magnum III in its analog performance, it has no digital capability whatsoever, so a streamer and DAC are still required to meet the modern definition of an integrated amp. And at 4X the cost of the Marantz.
With that leftover change in your budget, you could step up to the $1000 class turntables like a Rega Planar 3 or Mo-Fi Studio Deck. And still have money left for a decent set of headphones or to take a chunk out of a speaker upgrade.
It's all in about Vp = SQ/Sum(C1 ... Cn) * K. Value Perceived equals Sound Quality divided by the sum of your component costs * K, where K is the qualitative enjoyment factor. K is what allows someone to rationally drop an additional zero or two on the price of their system. Quantitatively, a $100,000 system isn't going to sound 10X better than a $10,000 system, so a qualitative factor accounts for that. Negotiating the value of K is also the foundation of achieving acceptable SAF (Spousal Accepance Factor) levels.
I realize this is outside your budget… but it might be something to go listen to and see if you think the stretch would be worth it. The new Audio Research I/50 integrated. A friend of mine has listened to it and it is great sounding (I really like their higher powered integrateds). This has a very similar sonic character. Buying new you can usually get help on spreading out the cost over time… like zero interest. Might be something to consider. I am a big Audio Research fan.
Just get a 2 channel power amp and use your Denon as a pre for 2 channel. You will be surprised how the dedicated amp helps your 2 channel come alive. You can also get a phono sound stage that can improve your vinyl and connect a dedicated DAC streamer for digital. I bought a Emotiva BAS-A2 (160 Watts per channel) for my Yamaha A-840 and it sounds great with my Tekton Lore Be's for 2 channel. It also lets you use the Audyssey setup and remote features from your Denon.
Get the Yamaha A-S1200 integrated. The looks and sound of it are unmatched for 3k. If you want to tinker around with a separate preamp on a future budget, you can run it directly to it’s poweramp section.
big_greg's thoughtful post is very well taken (though I'd not want to draw any inferences from the SQ from my Yammy HT receiver ;))
Certainly, a wide range of implementations could work very well at your price-point.
It does sound like this is early days for you, klimt,; if so, the first and best advice is don't hurry. First, shopping and learning is fun, and second, you'll save yourself grief.
(Eg., Fairly early on, I sold a nice preamp, because PS Audio said you could get better sound just running the volume control on their then brand new Perfect Wave DAC (thanks Paul!). I did this without listening (maybe I used the pre to finance the DAC). Turned out most ANY preamp sounded better in my system than the digital volume in the Perfect Wave, including the ancient ADCOM that had gathered dust in my garage for years.)
Second, keep doing what you're doing, and talk to folks. COVID makes it's it a bit more challenging, but if things open up, try to get to one of the Spring shows, where you can hear lots of stuff, and talk to lots of helpful folks.
And if you haven't already, do a "Any Audiophiles in [My Area]?" post. Not only did this help a ton with my system, and lead to a lot of great listening, I've had two good friends for the past 15 years.
Easy! Sugden A21se signature class A integrated @ $3250...there is NONE better at that price, sorry....I should know, as I buy and sell equipment like there is no tomorrow, and thus far, my Sugden is not going anywhere....it is a keeper.
Out of one side of our audiophile mouths we talk about how bad home theater receivers and processors are because of all the things jammed into them, but then we rave about how great it is to have an amplifier, preamp, headphone amp, and phono stage in an integrated. Hmm.
There's no one size fits all "right" or "wrong" answer to this question.
Separates typically give you more flexibility. They usually have more input/output options. If you decide there's a weak link in your system (you need more power, you need a phono stage with more gain or loading options than the one in your preamp, the headphone amp doesn't have enough power for your new cans, etc.), you may be faced with replacing your integrated or adding another component that duplicates one of the components in your integrated.
On the other hand, an integrated may have all the features / functionality you need and require less space. You don't have to get anything more than the amp / preamp in the integrated and can add other items as needed.
I have 2 systems with separates and two with integrated amps. I use what I want/need that works best in the space I have and gives me the features/functionality I want/need in that space.
Whichever option works best in your space and meets your needs is the "best".
Honestly, it sounds like you're in the early part of the learning curve. You would probably benefit from finding a couple of dealers near you that have good reviews and spending some time describing your listening environment, what you currently have, and what you want and getting some recommendations. Your questions are pretty broad and you would benefit more from an extended conversation that a few posts on a message board.
I suppose it depends. One can always start with a pair of solid good sounding, but moderately priced IC’s. Nordost Red Dawn works great in my setup, in part due to the Manleys’ and EAR’s inherently full sound. Not too pricey used. I continue to think it can be done at around the $3K, or very close to it if one is patient and does due diligence. As far as “pods, fuses”, etc. Sure, but who says that one necessarily has to go down that route? I’m a tweaker, but while my system does sound better with well chosen tweaks, it still sounds great without any of them.
Thank you for your reasoned and civil comment and question, jdoris. As is often the case here a simple and honest question from someone with a little experience in the hobby and a modicum of intelligence illicits a response that takes matters down a negative and heavy handed path. Especially since the thrust of my original comment should have been very clear to anyone not predisposed to heavy handedness and excessive ego. Let me try again:
First, I am not an equipment churner. I could offer more details about my approach to the hobby, but for purposes of this thread I will keep it to the matter at hand. I have owned and used a pair of Manley Reference 200/100 mono blocs for many years. Fantastic tube amps switchable between 200W tetrode and 100W triode. I’ve had the opportunity to compare mine to comparable current production Manley monos and others in the $10,000 range. Are the new Manley’s better than mine. Yeah, sure, a little…..maybe, depending on one’s tastes. If I were to sell my amps, I think that given their age, I would be lucky to get around $2000 for them. Same idea of diminished value for my tube preamps.
I have no doubt that there are some fine sounding integrateds made currently. I’ve heard systems built around integrateds and I would never dispute that there are NEW $3K integrateds that sound much better than, perhaps all NEW, $3K pre/amp combos. The convenience of integrateds is obvious and I’ve actually been very intrigued by the Jadis integrateds, having had experience with their amplifiers. However, a current $3K integrated better than my Manley’s and EAR preamp; or, other comparable high quality separates? Sonically and power wise? Both which can probably be had used for about the same price as a NEW $3K integrated. (I think it’s silly to get into the typical audio-jock disputes about whether something costs or is worth a couple of hundred $ more or less than something else and in which one’s opinion has to “walk all over” someone else’s).
Can the $3K integrated drive my Stax F-81 electrostatics (very inefficient) to give me the best, most natural sounding midrange that I have heard? Based on my sensibilities, of course. Or, my Maggies, to create the unbelievable soundstage that I hear? As just a couple of examples of what they can do. I suppose it’s possible, especially considering other aspects of the system and I’m open to the possibility. Actually, I hope that I’m wrong, but I kinda doubt it. That was my point and why I was surprised that the option of exceptional USED older separates had not been mentioned.
I was staying away from the separates/integrateds debate, but since the thread has gone there:
Years ago, I moved from separates to integrateds. One of my audiophile mentors suggested I go integrated, and I was a bit miffed, wondering if he was suggesting I was not a "real audiophile."
But he was right -- for me. I agree with many of the points millercarbon makes -- if not his abiding disdain for civility ;) -- regards things like cabling and rack space.
I'd add that for me non-sonic considerations favor integrateds: a cleaner, less complex visual on the rack, and less troubleshooting and less to go wrong. I don't seriously fool with my system much (except for dealing with the ever-fickle Roon!).
Of course, I understand the opposite perspective, favoring a visually imposing rack, with lots to tinker with.
I'm definitely curious to hear the case for separates over integrateds, at the same price point. I've heard the arguments about less channel cross-talk for monoblocks, but them seems less relevant for separates with 1 box for power, as I assume are discussing here.
Klimt The Bluesound Node has an acceptable DAC built in so it has both digital and analog outputs.
The analog outputs would work with your Denon.
When/if you get a new integrated that has a DAC in it, you can use the digital outputs on the Node to utilize a better DAC.
BTW, I replaced Emotiva separates with a Parasound New Classic 200 Integrated amp and haven't looked back. I'm enjoying it's many features and excellent sound quality. It has a better DAC than my Node so I use the digital outputs and it has a phono stage that supports mm and MC cartridges. At $1300 it doesn't quite compare with the $3000 integrated, but it leaves you some cash for a turntable, cartridge and some better cables.
That’s certainly a comparison that I would like to hear. Anyway, that is why I asked the question. It was not an assertion of any kind since as I said before, I have not kept up with the integrated market. Nor do I feel the need to as I’m perfectly happy with my separates. Instead of answering an “honest question”, you lecture. You certainly have a way about you, Miller.
It's an accurate quote, cut and paste. But whatever. Either way, you just made my case- comparing 3k worth of amp and preamp to 3k worth of integrated, forgetting the money needed for the interconnect required to use them.
And yes, a $3k Raven Nighthawk will walk all over that, no matter what interconnect you magically get for free and forget to mention.
Miller, you are taking my comment out of context and missing the thrust of my comment. My comment/question was clearly in reference to how USED separates such as the linked Rowland Coherence One preamp and a Bryston 4B amplifier, both highly regarded and classic separates, might compare sonically to a new $3K integrated. As linked, the pair can be had used for well under $3K.
I am surprised at the unanimity of the preference for integrated.
I am surprised anyone seriously thinks separates can outperform an integrated without spending far more on the separates than the integrated. Shocked, almost, but for knowing so many never did the research.
As a kid of 13-14 back in the 70’s obsessed with getting the most from my meager paper route money I read everything I could get my hands on. Right away: the most expensive parts by far are the box, faceplate, and knobs. Even a little kid can understand the faceplate contributes precisely zero to sound quality. Anyone recommending separates is therefore recommending spending twice as much on faceplates and boxes that get you nothing in return.
This was back in the 70’s. Components then all had hard wired lamp cord power plugs and freebie patch cords. Nowadays we know the value of power cords and interconnects. Anyone recommending separates is recommending spending twice as much on these. Or buying half as good quality. Or, more often, ignoring this important component hoping no one will notice the glaring gap in their advice.
This all is bad enough. Then there’s the problem of impedance matching. Integrated designers do this to perfection. Impedance mismatch problems don’t happen a lot with separates, but they do happen. They never happen with integrated.
Then there’s fuses, pods, and space, none of which favors separates.
On the other hand, just to be fair and balanced, separates do look impressive and help create the false impression of expertise among those who don’t really understand what is going on. Which is a lot of people. So I expect we will always have them.
And people who want the most sound quality for their audiophile dollar will buy integrated.
Seems to me that there are many more integrated amplifiers with built in DACs than phonostages. Since you are going to try out the Mani (which I believe would be a good mate to your TT) and are considering the purchase of the Node which has an onboard DAC, I believe you should look into a line level integrated lacking a phonostage or DAC. Thus focusing your money on amplifcation.
IMHO integrated amps are the way to go regardless of budget unless for some reason you need dual mono blocks for power or some other reason.
Otherwise, the simplicity in terms of cabling and the distortion introduced by the interconnect between the preamp and amp is not worth it, not to mention the space and cost saving of having fewer boxes.
It seems most all high end amp makers offer integrated amps of exceptional quality.
Phono stage is another issue. For some reason, the amp manufacturers are not emphasizing that if offering it at all, especially for a MC option. Definitely get a separate phono stage if you can afford it and care about vinyl.
Personally, I would view the "not all watts are equal" mantra with caution.
I'd bet against a 20wpc tube integrated working as well as 100 watts solid state (or tube, for that matter) for your 91db speakers, all else equal. In fact, I wouldn't go near 20 watts for your speakers, no matter how "unequal" they were claimed to be (complications noted by ghdprentice noted).
That said, there are tube amps with more juice in your budget. Rogue has already been mentioned, and gets great press. I just bought a 60 wpc Jolida/Black Ice used here that sounds lovely, and something like that could be had for way under your budget (see Walter at Underwood for these).
But my sense is many of the tube amps will not have all the functionality you want. If you are willing to consider a "just an amp" (an approach I'm attracted to), I'd throw Pass SS stuff in the mix with the toobers.
Parasound Hint could be a very nice keeper but it's class A/B which means it gets pretty warm when playing music, a plus in winter. HOWEVER...
The Technics SU G700 is 21st century tech and extremely well engineered: plus GaN technology is 21st century, and wow there's one FS at USAudiomart for $1595
you need to scroll down as Agons latest software "upgrade" puts links into huge invisible boxes
Watts are a proxy for current. So, they may not correctly reflect their performance.
Additionally, there is the old adage that tube watts are more powerful than equivalent than solid state watts… We should avoid discussing this… too many variables and theories to be valuable, and old tales.
91db is pretty good sensitivity. Does this does not put into the need massive power class to drive. But will likely start endless discussions of the impedance of the speakers.
There are a number of tube integrated amps of 50watts or greater that will power these well provided you are not into head banging levels of volume. Used I would think you could snag something really good.
I have a really dumb question. Why are tube amplifiers with low wattage (ex. 20 watts per channel) generally as good or better than SS amps with higher wattage (100+watts per channel). How are they able to power my B&W's for example? I guess not all watts are created equal. I've always wondered about this an haven't heard an explanation that makes sense to me
Luxman integrated or a flagship yamaha marantz in the sales... Luxman phono input also rivals most 500-700 phono stages so there is saving to be made with a good but simple integrated.
I used to have a Nad amp from the late 80s. When it broke I changed to a Rega Brio which was a bit better. Still with my old speakers. I planned to upgrade my speakers but started to think about moving and did not know which speakers that would work. Then I found a great deal on a used Schiit Ragnarok 2 integrated and bought it. It was the best upgrade I have made! The sound improved a lot even with the old speakers. So you can get better sound by changing the amp, even with old speakers.
I do recommend the Ragnarok. You probably want the fully loaded version since it has both dac and riaa built-in. Just get a Raspberry Pi or another streamer and you’re covered.
You have been given much good advice. You can use the Bluesound internal DAC into your Denon. Possibly upgrade to a stand alone DAC later. The Mani is a good one purchased direct from Schiit with 15 day return, $129. Based on forum threads an upgrade to the power supply makes a significant improvement. I have a Music Hall phonostage I could loan you for a month or so to try out the TT. PM me.
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