I have a jolida 1501 integrated amp with maranta cd5005 and signet sl260 speakers nht sub. That’s my setup with your budget! I’m satisfied with the sound for what I paid. One day will make the move for higher end!
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Sorry Klimt, I do not have informed opinions about contemporary "Swiss army knife" integrateds -- my Pass is "just" an amp -- although I have enjoyed a friend's Hegel (I would want to get clear on service support from them, though). I tend to agree with those that think a 3k investment is high, given your current speakers, and you could make a nice match for considerably less. But I also think that if you stay in the hobby, it is a certainty that your current speakers will not be your last, and it is not unreasonable to invest in an amp you can grow into over time. Thought of that way, you should probably get a higher power unit, to have more speaker choices in the future. One thing I wonder about with integrateds incorporating lots of digital functionality like streaming: do they have a long useful life, or do they become obsolete fairly quickly?
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@klimt For a cheap but good phono amp, I'd look at the Schiit Mani and the iFi Zen. I've owned both, and they were very enjoyable. |
Thanks Guys!
smrex, could you post a link to purchase the Schiit Mani? It's not avail on Crutchfield , amazon or music direct. It has been recommended to me in the past. I'd buy used from audiogon but I can't seem to find it anywhere. I've got alot of good vinyl and am looking to put it to good use. 👍
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You have been given much good advice. You can use the Bluesound internal DAC into your Denon. Possibly upgrade to a stand alone DAC later. The Mani is a good one purchased direct from Schiit with 15 day return, $129. Based on forum threads an upgrade to the power supply makes a significant improvement. I have a Music Hall phonostage I could loan you for a month or so to try out the TT. PM me. |
I used to have a Nad amp from the late 80s. When it broke I changed to a Rega Brio which was a bit better. Still with my old speakers. I planned to upgrade my speakers but started to think about moving and did not know which speakers that would work. Then I found a great deal on a used Schiit Ragnarok 2 integrated and bought it. It was the best upgrade I have made! The sound improved a lot even with the old speakers. So you can get better sound by changing the amp, even with old speakers. I do recommend the Ragnarok. You probably want the fully loaded version since it has both dac and riaa built-in. Just get a Raspberry Pi or another streamer and you’re covered. [Edit] The price is around $2k. |
Thanks again guys! I have a really dumb question. Why are tube amplifiers with low wattage (ex. 20 watts per channel) generally as good or better than SS amps with higher wattage (100+watts per channel). How are they able to power my B&W's for example? I guess not all watts are created equal. I've always wondered about this an haven't heard an explanation that makes sense to me TIA |
Watts are a proxy for current. So, they may not correctly reflect their performance.
Additionally, there is the old adage that tube watts are more powerful than equivalent than solid state watts… We should avoid discussing this… too many variables and theories to be valuable, and old tales. 91db is pretty good sensitivity. Does this does not put into the need massive power class to drive. But will likely start endless discussions of the impedance of the speakers. There are a number of tube integrated amps of 50watts or greater that will power these well provided you are not into head banging levels of volume. Used I would think you could snag something really good. |
Parasound Hint could be a very nice keeper but it's class A/B which means it gets pretty warm when playing music, a plus in winter. HOWEVER...
The Technics SU G700 is 21st century tech and extremely well engineered: plus GaN technology is 21st century, and wow there's one FS at USAudiomart for $1595
you need to scroll down as Agons latest software "upgrade" puts links into huge invisible boxes
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Personally, I would view the "not all watts are equal" mantra with caution. I'd bet against a 20wpc tube integrated working as well as 100 watts solid state (or tube, for that matter) for your 91db speakers, all else equal. In fact, I wouldn't go near 20 watts for your speakers, no matter how "unequal" they were claimed to be (complications noted by ghdprentice noted). That said, there are tube amps with more juice in your budget. Rogue has already been mentioned, and gets great press. I just bought a 60 wpc Jolida/Black Ice used here that sounds lovely, and something like that could be had for way under your budget (see Walter at Underwood for these). But my sense is many of the tube amps will not have all the functionality you want. If you are willing to consider a "just an amp" (an approach I'm attracted to), I'd throw Pass SS stuff in the mix with the toobers.
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IMHO integrated amps are the way to go regardless of budget unless for some reason you need dual mono blocks for power or some other reason. Otherwise, the simplicity in terms of cabling and the distortion introduced by the interconnect between the preamp and amp is not worth it, not to mention the space and cost saving of having fewer boxes. It seems most all high end amp makers offer integrated amps of exceptional quality. Phono stage is another issue. For some reason, the amp manufacturers are not emphasizing that if offering it at all, especially for a MC option. Definitely get a separate phono stage if you can afford it and care about vinyl. |
Seems to me that there are many more integrated amplifiers with built in DACs than phonostages. Since you are going to try out the Mani (which I believe would be a good mate to your TT) and are considering the purchase of the Node which has an onboard DAC, I believe you should look into a line level integrated lacking a phonostage or DAC. Thus focusing your money on amplifcation.
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I am surprised anyone seriously thinks separates can outperform an integrated without spending far more on the separates than the integrated. Shocked, almost, but for knowing so many never did the research. As a kid of 13-14 back in the 70’s obsessed with getting the most from my meager paper route money I read everything I could get my hands on. Right away: the most expensive parts by far are the box, faceplate, and knobs. Even a little kid can understand the faceplate contributes precisely zero to sound quality. Anyone recommending separates is therefore recommending spending twice as much on faceplates and boxes that get you nothing in return. This was back in the 70’s. Components then all had hard wired lamp cord power plugs and freebie patch cords. Nowadays we know the value of power cords and interconnects. Anyone recommending separates is recommending spending twice as much on these. Or buying half as good quality. Or, more often, ignoring this important component hoping no one will notice the glaring gap in their advice. This all is bad enough. Then there’s the problem of impedance matching. Integrated designers do this to perfection. Impedance mismatch problems don’t happen a lot with separates, but they do happen. They never happen with integrated. Then there’s fuses, pods, and space, none of which favors separates. On the other hand, just to be fair and balanced, separates do look impressive and help create the false impression of expertise among those who don’t really understand what is going on. Which is a lot of people. So I expect we will always have them. And people who want the most sound quality for their audiophile dollar will buy integrated. |
Miller, you are taking my comment out of context and missing the thrust of my comment. My comment/question was clearly in reference to how USED separates such as the linked Rowland Coherence One preamp and a Bryston 4B amplifier, both highly regarded and classic separates, might compare sonically to a new $3K integrated. As linked, the pair can be had used for well under $3K. |
It's an accurate quote, cut and paste. But whatever. Either way, you just made my case- comparing 3k worth of amp and preamp to 3k worth of integrated, forgetting the money needed for the interconnect required to use them. And yes, a $3k Raven Nighthawk will walk all over that, no matter what interconnect you magically get for free and forget to mention.
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That’s certainly a comparison that I would like to hear. Anyway, that is why I asked the question. It was not an assertion of any kind since as I said before, I have not kept up with the integrated market. Nor do I feel the need to as I’m perfectly happy with my separates. Instead of answering an “honest question”, you lecture. You certainly have a way about you, Miller. |
Klimt The Bluesound Node has an acceptable DAC built in so it has both digital and analog outputs. The analog outputs would work with your Denon. When/if you get a new integrated that has a DAC in it, you can use the digital outputs on the Node to utilize a better DAC. BTW, I replaced Emotiva separates with a Parasound New Classic 200 Integrated amp and haven't looked back. I'm enjoying it's many features and excellent sound quality. It has a better DAC than my Node so I use the digital outputs and it has a phono stage that supports mm and MC cartridges. At $1300 it doesn't quite compare with the $3000 integrated, but it leaves you some cash for a turntable, cartridge and some better cables. |
I was staying away from the separates/integrateds debate, but since the thread has gone there: Years ago, I moved from separates to integrateds. One of my audiophile mentors suggested I go integrated, and I was a bit miffed, wondering if he was suggesting I was not a "real audiophile." But he was right -- for me. I agree with many of the points millercarbon makes -- if not his abiding disdain for civility ;) -- regards things like cabling and rack space. I'd add that for me non-sonic considerations favor integrateds: a cleaner, less complex visual on the rack, and less troubleshooting and less to go wrong. I don't seriously fool with my system much (except for dealing with the ever-fickle Roon!). Of course, I understand the opposite perspective, favoring a visually imposing rack, with lots to tinker with. I'm definitely curious to hear the case for separates over integrateds, at the same price point. I've heard the arguments about less channel cross-talk for monoblocks, but them seems less relevant for separates with 1 box for power, as I assume are discussing here. Thoughts from frogman or anyone?
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Thank you for your reasoned and civil comment and question, jdoris. As is often the case here a simple and honest question from someone with a little experience in the hobby and a modicum of intelligence illicits a response that takes matters down a negative and heavy handed path. Especially since the thrust of my original comment should have been very clear to anyone not predisposed to heavy handedness and excessive ego. Let me try again: First, I am not an equipment churner. I could offer more details about my approach to the hobby, but for purposes of this thread I will keep it to the matter at hand. I have owned and used a pair of Manley Reference 200/100 mono blocs for many years. Fantastic tube amps switchable between 200W tetrode and 100W triode. I’ve had the opportunity to compare mine to comparable current production Manley monos and others in the $10,000 range. Are the new Manley’s better than mine. Yeah, sure, a little…..maybe, depending on one’s tastes. If I were to sell my amps, I think that given their age, I would be lucky to get around $2000 for them. Same idea of diminished value for my tube preamps. I have no doubt that there are some fine sounding integrateds made currently. I’ve heard systems built around integrateds and I would never dispute that there are NEW $3K integrateds that sound much better than, perhaps all NEW, $3K pre/amp combos. The convenience of integrateds is obvious and I’ve actually been very intrigued by the Jadis integrateds, having had experience with their amplifiers. However, a current $3K integrated better than my Manley’s and EAR preamp; or, other comparable high quality separates? Sonically and power wise? Both which can probably be had used for about the same price as a NEW $3K integrated. (I think it’s silly to get into the typical audio-jock disputes about whether something costs or is worth a couple of hundred $ more or less than something else and in which one’s opinion has to “walk all over” someone else’s). Can the $3K integrated drive my Stax F-81 electrostatics (very inefficient) to give me the best, most natural sounding midrange that I have heard? Based on my sensibilities, of course. Or, my Maggies, to create the unbelievable soundstage that I hear? As just a couple of examples of what they can do. I suppose it’s possible, especially considering other aspects of the system and I’m open to the possibility. Actually, I hope that I’m wrong, but I kinda doubt it. That was my point and why I was surprised that the option of exceptional USED older separates had not been mentioned. Thanks again. |