Installing dedicated 10 gauge lines

Did exactly this in 2 houses.  Two different electricians ran dual 10 gauge from the box to dual quads so I could separate tube/SS for ground loops or noisy power supplies.  Less than $800 both times without any holes in the sheet rock other than cutouts for outlets.  An electrician should be able to notch the sheetrock to jump over a stud if necessary, which is easy to patch. As for 10g vs 12g…while you are in there it isn’t much more expensive on a short run, and it isn’t going to sound worse.

In an empty house we were moving to I had two outlets, of 4 plugs each, installed of 20 amp wire. The room had a common wall with the garage, and the wire went to a breaker box in the garage far wall. So the wire only ran to the ceiling and down a wall to access the room at the floorboard. 
 

It cost me $400, but this was in 2010. And I hired an unemployed electrician who did the work. So it was a win/win. Hardly near $15k. 

I have been planning a dedicated AC line for some time and it should be installed within a couple of weeks. At first, I thought of using the man as a consultant who did M.Fremmer’s which was a major fix including a new meter box, new incoming outside line and junction, two outside grounding poles, etc. Since code in my area doesn’t allow anything outside to be changed, I decided on a more basic rework of my inside line.

For that, I bought 50’ of Oyaide high end cable and two Oyaide outlets with heavy faceplates. Just this was $4500. And my electrician will be able to run the wiring through the attic for about $800. Waits to be seen if I will still need my top line Shunyata conditioner. It is recommended that the amps go into the wall outlet.

I will see if the preamp is better to the wall or to the conditioner.

My current AC for the system is on the same line as the fridge. I expect that the new line will bring the whole system up to a new level. More present? Hope so.

WOW...  Lots of opinions here on power wiring etc...  I do agree that confiding in a good electrician especially one with re-modeling experience is a reasonable thing to do.  I re-modeled a retirement cottage last year and was easily able to install 10-gauge cryo'd Romex to Pangea outlets which accept the 10-gauge wire easily to a 20-amp breaker at the panel 30-ft away.  With no-load on that circuit, then powering up all of my equipment (including class-A amps) the voltage drop was ~1-volt no load to full equipment load.  My audiophile friend with roughly similar equipment and 14-gauge wiring with similar distance to the panel with full load experiences a ~3 - 4 volt drop.  So I feel that 12-gauge Romex would be fine unless you're going a good distance from the panel.  Then 10-gauge in my opinion would be better.  This was not a scientific experiment...  Just an observation on our parts with voltage-drop.  

Again, if you can measure your no load to full load voltage drop with existing wiring, you may not have any problem at all.  Using better quality outlets just makes the connections a lot more secure.  

Seriously, you could consider more efficient speakers (not everybody needs magnaplanars?) or a more efficient amplifier (what about class A/B instead of class Y?), instead of ripping out your walls to try to do all of this.  I mean, if your amplifier has a top-grade power supply and regulator, any minor voltage drop from the wall conduit should be erased by the conditioning circuits in the amplifier.

Not sure why people all seem to want a 10 gauge wire. You only need 12. Also If there is no room for a breaker, use a "piggy back" breaker. It is two breakers sandwiched together that only takes up the space of one breaker. Remove an existing breaker and install piggy back breaker. Be sure that piggy back breaker includes the amperage of the breaker removed. They come in 20A/15A, 20A/20A, and 15A/15A.

The absolute most that you need (unless you have something most unusual) is 1 (one) 20 amp circuit.  That requires 12ga with ground from your panel & a 20 amp breaker.  Use a hospital grade outlet.

From that single outlet use a 15 amp or 20 amp multi outlet strip to plug in all of your gear.  Note: The only grounded component should be your preamplifier.  Use cheater plugs for everything else.  Otherwise you will be chasing ground loops to no end.  If you don't have a preamp then you will have to experiment.

One 20A line is certainly an option. And 12g is fine for short runs from the service panel. But to recommend grounding one component and using cheater-plugs all around is irresponsible.

And the theory for using one dedicated line is to prevent ground-loops. With all components tied to the common grounding buss bar there should be equal ground potential (impedance) unless one of the components is not using a proper grounding scheme.

FWIW, I just had a 60 amp 240 V circuit installed for my Tesla Level 2 charging station which required a run of copper that alone cost $380 for materials and the wiring came to less than $2K.

So you may want to look at electricians that specialize in EV charging.

Before you do any of this determine if you really need to.  Get a good quality multimeter (Fluke) and set at a suitable scale/resolution to determine if you have any voltage drop while using your equipment.  Your amp will certainly be your highest current draw AND the current draw will go up when you push the amp to high volumes especially if you have inefficient speakers.  There is really not much point in turning it up to volumes that you would never listen, but if you want a good indicator - turn it up.  A good amp with a good power supply and plenty of capacitor storage will handle the transients - that's part of their job.  You don't need to have split second resolution, but if you see the voltage slowly dropping even a couple or few volts then you might be affecting the amps performance and a remedy might make sense. Sometimes a new, high amperage subpanel close by can be a better and easier fix especially if your main panel is a distance away.  If the wire turns out to be too lite at least the electrician won't have far if the sub-panel is near by.      

Totally unnecessary to run 10 GA Romex to your hi-fi room.  The absolute most that you need (unless you have something most unusual) is 1 (one) 20 amp circuit.  That requires 12ga with ground from your panel & a 20 amp breaker.  Use a hospital grade outlet.

From that single outlet use a 15 amp or 20 amp multi outlet strip to plug in all of your gear.  Note: The only grounded component should be your preamplifier.  Use cheater plugs for everything else.  Otherwise you will be chasing ground loops to no end.  If you don't have a preamp then you will have to experiment.

It may suffice to use a power regenerator on your current outlet of choice if you are willing to spend the money for one.

I did add a high gage dedicated line and didn't hear a difference. As you have a relatively quiet load unless you have a significant distance of travel I doubt you will hear much either. Voltage drop is your enemy related to distance. There are tables to show you this and mine was 100 ft which drops a bit.

Did it myself for a couple of hundred. Inspector cared more about a child proof receptacles and the distance between wire attachment points. Was sort of snarky with me putting in the heavier wire but justified himself by saying, well I guess that is all you had. He was more impressed with the LED recessed lighting I added to around the room near the room edge.

I then added a regenerator, not a power conditioner and it was night and day. My advice would be skip the dedicated circuit if it is going to cost more than a few hundred, and invest in a regenerator which just plugs in the wall. It will normalize your voltage, no drop, patches up the tops of your sine waves, and fills in for any quick current transients. Will be such an improvement that even my wife hears the difference

You may want to assess what you have such as how many outlets are between the box and the outlets you will use and is there anything else on the line. I had an electrican friend assist me and run a dedicated line. Later I moved my 2 channel system downstairs. I did not run a dedicated line. The line had three outlets daisy chained between box and two channel rig. I replaced all outlets and used side screws rather than back stabs. Quite happy with the result of the compromise and have no intention of running a dedicated line. I also ran ethernet when I did the initial dedicated line. If you decide to run a dedicated line, consider running ethernet at same time.

If you were to do a blind test, could you really hear enough difference to warrant the expense.  It would be interesting to be able to put a toggle switch between the two lines and to pick either A or B without knowing which one is which and without question pick the new line.  

Under $3k.

I just put in 2 dedicated 10ga lines...$2200.

Put in a 240v 8ga circuit all the way to the garage and added a subpanel...$2400

I

Has anyone heard of first trying running the wire out in the open first to test the results before burying behind walls ? I may test this in the future before spending the time going through the trouble of routing inside the walls.

There are lots of ways to skin a cat but without knowing what type of house you have and where you need the plug(s) to go, one can't give you a price without checking out things first. You can price materials from Lowes or Home Depot and I would never get a license from the city or county if you know what you are doing. It can open up a new set of problems. Don't get ripped off. You might be able to ask somebody shopping at an electrical wholesale place if they can recommend someone to come out and give a price and time frame. Good luck.

 Nervous they will be proven as fools.

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way. I guess it makes you mad when your friends don't want to play? Maybe "they will be proven as fools".

But you're right, your EXTRA smart, super duper smart, calling others fools because you're no fun to play with anyways!!

I can honestly say YOU two have removed all doubt. Where the heck is MC when you need him. Good Lord. Do you two walk backward everywhere you go? OR just on the forums.. DON'T get mad. Just blow your nose and be happy. :-)

rodman99999 they are all yours.. :-)

What you require should not cost over $3000. I agree with others to call an electrician and get an estimate. An experienced electrician has seen it all in residential situations. They don't want to break apart walls, they look for areas in the house where existing electrical wiring is. They will run new wire from the service panel and will follow the path of previous wiring or they will take measurements then drill holes or make cuts to fish the wires up through the house. 

If there's an obstacle, they might cut a section of drywall and modify a stud to get to the destination. 

10 and 12 gauge Romex will require 20amp breakers and outlets. Figure out which components are on each line and the total amperage. You may be able to use 12awg and 20A. Just a heads up, expect the electrician to tell you not to use 10awg, it's harder work for him. If that's what you need, then insist on it and buy it yourself at Home Depot.

@mrskeptic     Love it!  You are utterly and totally correct.   You may join my club.

But a blind testing rig could be created in a large lab.

The power cable and fuse guys and all the other snake oil people hate blind testing because it proves that wire is wire and juice is juice.  They are NEVER prepared to subject themselves to blind testing, saying that it 'makes them nervous'.  Quite right it does.  Nervous they will be proven as fools.

Just listen after dark -RFI will be reduced to an insignificant level once the sun goes below the horizon.

Given how much different power cords can change sound for better or worse, I think it would make sense to at least try to ensure that your circuit is not shared with other electrically noisy digital devices, including things like media streamers.  Not to mention other things you can do as others have mentioned.  But, I suppose you are @mrskeptic for a reason :)

Seems like a lot of work and expense for what may or may not provide any change. How would one go about blind testing such a setup (which is the only reliable way to check such things)?

Call your local fire department and ask if there’s a firefighter that does electrical work on the side.  Can almost guarantee there’s at least one, handiest people I’ve ever met, price is usually right, too.

@nyev 

i used 10-2 gauge cable steel sheath. You want to use steel not aluminum. Atkore makes a great product. Not sure if you will need the isolated ground or not. I did not. Atkore 10-2 ran about 750 dollars for 250 feet. Quality cable is important, as much as the dedicated line itself. Don’t want the Romex quality stuff and also you don’t want to bend it either. Hopefully you can keep the integrity of the cable intact. Of course this only works if you have the power in breaker box for an additional 20 amp. I think all in the job was about 3k including the 750 dollar cable. 

Calling an electrician is the best advice. They will assess what can and can't be done  within your budget. Also, it's not written in stone you have to go behind the walls. Surface mounted conduits such as WireMold can bring power to almost anywhere. The conduits are fed from a wall box and run on the walls above  base molding to surface mounted outlet boxes -- and come in a variety of colors and styles to make them less obtrusive. Just Google it and go to the images. 

Thanks Erik for the tips especially regarding 240V. I would not have thought of that.

You are welcome.

Don’t forget to add a whole house surge suppressor while you are in there though, especially if you are in lightning prone areas.

Also consider using unique, locking, 240V plug and socket so it never gets misidentified.

Lunch break. Thanks be to the lunch wagon, I'm starved

OK! I didn't say anything this morning, is conduit an option?

YOU can buy pre bent conduit and add a nice looking large (er) external route. The nice thing about that is you can pull extra wire at the same time or at a later date with little issue at all. There is also flex armor. That is real popular where sheetrock isn't used but below 8ft the cables have to be covered. Sheetrock, ridged conduit or flex guard.

The biggest thing is good copper and tight connection. 10 to 1 if you checked your main every securement in it would need to be retightened.. 

OK lunch is over and time to bill this wonderful customer. He is such a nice person I think I'll raise my rates via a text message while I'm here. I'm sure he would explode. Only if I'm lucky.. I've never heard a person scream that much at workers.

I understand Spanish better than I speak it. He sure has a  potty mouth. 

If your breaker box has no empty slots, then aren't you also going to have to put in a new bigger one of those, and wire everything into it?

I did it myself.  I was able to use a circuit that was installed in my laundry room years ago for an electric dryer (I installed that too).  Yes, it will be expensive if you hire it done.  

Looking at other options, at least you can try to find a circuit with nothing else on it.  Make sure it is not a GCFI protected circuit as that will probably include all the bathrooms and garage (that was the outlet behind my stereo when I investigated).  

If you are lucky, some areas install 12 ga wire for 15 amp circuit (not here in CA).  You can upgrade your outlets to elimitate that poor connection.

And some amps are more tolerant to low current reserves than others.  I don't know how to pick them but I know some are.  15 amps and a 14 gauge wire is more than enough for any amp ON THE AVERAGE.  The reason you need large wires is to have current readily available for changes/transients especially bass.   Some amps have power supplies that better accommodate this.  It isn't always amp size.  I have a 10 wpc amp that is very sensitive to power cord size in it's ability to provide good bass.

Jerry

Unfortunately there is no crawlspace, between my room and the ground floor,  and no attic as there are vaulted ceilings with spray foam insulation.

FWIW my system is also in a room with cathedral ceiling. Yet I still have an attic in which I can run wires to 3 walls of that room.  I can even get it into the 4th wall, at least on each end with a minimum of Sheetrock work. So all is not lost, IMO. As @builder3  has said, the electricians have more experience than I do in pulling wires. And after seeing the job, they may be able to do this somewhat easy. We are working blind here so I don't know without seeing a print. Get an electrician who has remodeling experience to take a look.

nyev, do I understand that your audio room is on a 2nd floor? If so, is the wall you want the new outlets in an interior wall?

Electricians are good at fishing wires into walls, either from in the crawl space, if you have one, or your attic. Or surface mounted conduit on an exterior wall, there are a lot of possibilities. Removing drywall from the panel to your new dedicated outlets would be about the poorest option, unless the two are in adjacent rooms. Ask around where you live, get a name or two of a good electrician. For electrical advice, ignore 90% of what’s posted here at Audiogon. A few folks will burn your house down, others will only electrocute you, lol.

Thanks for the advice All. Unfortunately there is no crawlspace, between my room and the ground floor,  and no attic as there are vaulted ceilings with spray foam insulation. There is no access from the ground floor as it is completely finished…

Thanks Erik for the tips especially regarding 240V. I would not have thought of that.

For the Diablo, consider having it adjusted to run with 240V and running 12/2 Romex instead of 10/2. Using 240V / 20A circuit the Diablo 300 will require a 6.3A fuse, which leaves a big ratio between circuit capacity and amp needs of about 3:1.  This ratio is actually a bit better than you'd get with 10/2 at 120V:  30 Amps possible / 12A needed, so closer to 2:1

In addition, running 240V the voltage drop will be halved for the same distance given the Diablo 300. A much stiffer situation.

Best,

Erik

I am a retired lifelong carpenter/ building Contractor. I also ran my own line in my house after it was built. As @winoguy17 says, You can go through the crawlspace (if you have one) If Not then go through the the attic. There will be no need to cut Sheetrock except the hole for the remodel box. If you have a 2 story house and trying to put this on the 1st floor in a home without a crawlspace, it can still be done without much cutting of Sheetrock. This will take a lot of measurements and planning and is not for the typical DIYer.

Depending on where you live and how strict the codes are, an electrician should be able to do this for maybe $750-$1k. The later situation I spoke of will be more $$$, maybe double that price. One caveat is that this cannot be done in exterior walls due to the insulation without removing Sheetrock. Of course , the price then increases to double or more. Again, its all dependent on where you live and the bureaucracy & codes. Also some city codes are very cumbersome and this too raises the price.

Also, I agree with @helmholtzsoul concerning the 12g wiring. Most outlets will not accept 10 g  and you would have to junction it over to 12 g anyway. Good luck

 Depending on your house you may be able to feed from the basement and not get involved with hacking up walls. $15K sounds ridiculous....

Thanks. I’m a DIY guy for certain things only.  This doesn’t sound like one of those things!  $3k IS steep to have it done, but it’s not $15K steep!

First things first. Code in my area is #12 for a 20amp circuit. I see a lot of people pull larger gage cable. Larger cable and a 20 amp breaker is still a 20 amp circuit.

I have a 30 amp 220/240, 2 dedicated 20 amp 12/2/g and a 15 14/2/g in my front room. Any room I set up is set up the same way. I use 220/240 ac wall units. I just rewired a room 30 years after I built it the same way. It cost me under 300.00 dollars for materials (at the time) to add two 50 amp sub panels and materials for 3 rooms. It was all copper Romex.

It took me a weekend of moving furniture to the middle of the room, covering it and getting to the point of touching up the texture on the cut dry wall. I left it until the following weekend, taped off the room and repainted.

I had 5 days of partial labor because, the work and taping the wall is one day, topping is another day, texture is another day, tape and primer is another day and then paint is another day. The first day is the only full day. So 8+2+2+2+2. A contractor will use primer/paint and hot mud to cut it to 2 days.. Then you can move the furniture back..

The answer is 16 hours for "a room" 2 weekends. A contractor that charges more than 1K a day for one man is kinda steep in my book. I use UNION electricians from the hall. OK 1.5K a day prices went up.. :-)

Materials 2-300.00 for a single room (NOW). Make sure it’s copper not aluminum with copper clad. No cryo treatment for wall cable, silly thing to do anyway for house wire. If you want to play with cabling after a couple 125a 5352A Hubbell receptacle are installed, HAVE FUN.

Permits: ?? 125.00 - 200.00 for the inspections..

2-3k is HIGH to me, but I’ve seldom had it done. I’m a DIY person. 300.00 for materials and a video goes a long ways.

Time for work.. I have to see where I’m driving too. 2 more years.. I’m DONE..😁