Power conditioning for multiple dedicated circuits

Underwood Hifi has different sizes of the Core Power from 2400 watts to 3 or 600. Each has different amount of outlets

Thanks, artemus....that is exactly what I was looking for.  I will give them a call and get their recommendations.  

I ran 4 new lines to my music room. There are two wall receptacles where I removed the tab on each to have each outlet on the duplex a dedicated circuit. I have my amp, preamp and phono stage plugged into 3 and a monster power center plugged into the 4th to cover all other items(subwoofer, DAC, streamer, turntable power supply).

I ran 4 new lines to my music room.

As in four individual lines that do not share a common conduit or cable.
Example: Four 2 conductor with ground Romex cables?
Or two 3 conductor with ground Romex cables?

There are two wall receptacles where I removed the tab on each to have each outlet on the duplex a dedicated circuit.

Why did you pick that wiring method?

There are two wall receptacles where I removed the tab

’Tab’ as in only 1 tab per duplex receptacle outlet removed? The tab on the Hot contact side? Neutral side not removed. If yes, then you fed each duplex with a 3 wire 120/240V multiwire branch circuit? Two hot conductors, one shared neutral conductor, and one EGC (Equipment Grounding Conductor).
If yes, you do not have four 120V dedicated circuits. You have four separate 120V circuits. I would not recommend this wiring method for feeding audio equipment. Especially when the equipment will be connected together by wire interconnects.

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I would definitely look for vendors and products that allow a trial and return period- I'm not suggesting power conditioners don't work- in fact, they may work effectively in eliminating more than what you intended. I eventually got rid of all power conditioning when I had my system set up in NY where I lived for a long time.
When I moved to Texas, I had a large (10kVA) iso transformer installed which feeds a sub panel dedicated to the audio system. The iso-unit, built by Controlled Power in Michigan, does have some surge protection and that is complemented by whole house surge protection.
I predict that we will get at least one suggestion that you only need one line and that all components (at least the analog ones) run from that with a distribution box- a power strip without switches, lights or other bells and whistles, or a power conditioner that functions as a distribution box. That was in my experience more common in the UK systems which typically didn't use the high powered amps often found in big systems here in the States. This may eliminate grounding differences among different power lines, but if you use fancy audiophile power cords, you will have to arrange the system and power cords to reach that single point of power.
I listened to the system in Texas for a while without the iso set up waiting for the transformer to be wired and built. During that time the two "ends" were connected with a junction box where the iso-transformer would eventually go. This so-called "dirty" power was actually pretty clean, which I attribute to newer infrastructure where I am (in Austin) compared to what I was used to in NY (deteriorated infrastructure). The system sounded a little bright to my ears at first, but it required a fair amount of dialing in. 
I can see instances where someone is in an apartment or is suffering from less than optimal power where a conditioner improves things. But, be able to return any unit you try if it turns out that something sounds lost in the process. A lot of the cheaper power conditioners act like filters and eliminate more than just noise--
 I don't normally put up  provocative posts-- and I don't intend this to be read as such, but just my experience. 

Take a look at the range of Audience power conditioners.  They have what you're looking for. And are sold by multiple dealers, some I'm sure with return policies.

@jea48 I did the 2nd scenario you described.  I chose this because when I went to Lowes to pick up the Romex they had a bundle of 12/3 wire that was 1/2 price due to a return.  Therefore each duplex receptacle has 2 hot, 1 neutral and 1 ground.  I removed the hot wire's tab and wired to a double pole 40amp breaker so they each have their shared 20amp breaker but you cannot forget to switch one side off in the event of later work.  I did not research nor ask about this method so the only reason was simplicity.  What are the disadvantages?  I originally thought about using 10ga wire but got swayed by the wire on sale.  From your response I suppose sharing the ground and neutral disqualifies them from being dedicated.  What is the disadvantage for they way I have them wired?  

I think you've now protected your 12 wire circuits with a 40A breaker, which is a huge mistake.
That being said, wait for jea48 to answer.

Since this is a DOUBLE POLE 40 A breaker, each 12 gauge line gets it's own 20A breaker as you have already stated. Since this is a double pole breaker, that means that each 20 A side gets it's own phase as well. That is how your AC panel is set up. So far, I see this all to be an advantage, except for the shared ground and neutral. Not sure what limitations or problems that may cause, if any. 

I'm not suggesting power conditioners don't work- in fact, they may work effectively in eliminating more than what you intended.

True

Most of the ac mains "dirty power" found in our houses is caused by devices, equipment, and appliances, found in the home. Including the audio equipment itself.

As for dirty power put back out on the ac mains by the audio equipment, that is why more than one dedicated  branch circuit is used.  
YMMV.  

builder3454 posts  

08-08-2021  
 12:46pm  

I think you’ve now protected your 12 wire circuits with a 40A breaker, which is a huge mistake.

Correct. The breaker needs to be a 2 pole 20 amp breaker.

dhite71 OP147 posts

08-08-2021
12:23pm                         


@jea48
I did the 2nd scenario you described. I chose this because when I went to Lowes to pick up the Romex they had a bundle of 12/3 wire that was 1/2 price due to a return. Therefore each duplex receptacle has 2 hot, 1 neutral and 1 ground. I removed the hot wire’s tab and wired to a double pole 40amp breaker so they each have their shared 20amp breaker but you cannot forget to switch one side off in the event of later work. I did not research nor ask about this method so the only reason was simplicity. What are the disadvantages? I originally thought about using 10ga wire but got swayed by the wire on sale. From your response I suppose sharing the ground and neutral disqualifies them from being dedicated. What is the disadvantage for they way I have them wired?

I did the 2nd scenario you described. I chose this because when I went to Lowes to pick up the Romex they had a bundle of 12/3 wire that was 1/2 price due to a return.

It’s nuts what Romex is selling for now. You can buy 12/2 and 12/3 MC (Metal Clad) aluminum armor cable cheaper than Romex. Supply and demand!

Before I explain where, imo, you went wrong in the type of wiring and wiring methods you used please explain why you are looking at buying plug in power conditioners? Are trying correct something? Are you hearing something from the speakers of your system you don’t like? Did you hear it before you added the 4 new circuits?

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@jea48 I don’t have a problem that I am aware, but wanted to experiment in power conditioning. Many speak very highly and this would be new ground for me to explore.

I did not appreciate any change/improvement in sound before the new circuits either, but makes me feel better.  I also like being able to easily flip the 'music room' breaker whenever I leave the house for an overnight stay.

My apologies. I read right past the 40 A  and assumed the split  load myself. Yes, 20A is the correct size.

My non-technical contribution at this point- I have done a number of rooms over the years with dedicated circuits and they cannot, at least where I lived by code, be entirely separate from the main household electrical service. (If you live in a place where you can have entirely separate service entrances all the better but there are still limitations). That said, none of the systems, save the present one was immune from noise elsewhere on the lines in the house. Perhaps this is due to shared ground, maybe the answer is different for different kinds of noise-- for example, at the designer/manufacturer’s suggestion, I swapped the lithium battery packs in my line stage and noticed a feather or two of dust under the batteries which I removed- I had an intermittent burst of static occasionally that was driving me crazy.
Other noise, apart from tube rush or simply what you think you are hearing as background to program material, whether digital or analog, may not be as evident until you eliminate it. But, there’s the rub-- I haven’t heard the latest crop of power conditioners, and depending on what you are hearing (I’m not there), I don’t know if your power can be improved. If you have the ability to experiment with the right to return at minimal penalty, you have some freedom to see, including what each component is arguably contributing to what you are hearing by swapping conditioners in and out on different pieces. I never used them on amps-- (well, I did try them, but not for long). 
I have no competence to comment on the wiring issue, you are in good hands with @jea48 .
Once you get that sorted, I think the next important thing is to look at your system, make sure everything is working as it should and consider optimizing room position. This is less about spending money and more about learning and experimentation. Jim Smith’s book is often cited as a good starting point.
I can certainly hear differences over my system, and even small changes are discernible. Such changes may or may not be improvements in the lucidity of your musical experience. So don’t equate different with better until you have listened for a period across a range of music.
That’s all I got.

Well, a little late now, but you would have been better off running 220V lines and putting a transformer in the room. You would have lower voltage drop from the length of the cables, and better noise isolation thanks to the transformer.

If you must go this route, I recommend Furman strips or conditioners with LiFT and SMP, or Tripp Lite Isobar Ultra as affordable ways to reduce noise.

Eric, I always had an interest in doing just what you recommend here. In fact, I believe that the Richard gray Company used to make what was called the 'Power Station'. You give it 220AC, it uses a step down transformer, and produces 120AC balanced power IIRC. Of course it was massive and too expensive for me, but it did catch my eye.
 Long ago, I was able to run 2 separate 120 lines out of phase with each other, using some equipment on one line and other equipment on the other. That is why this thread appealed to me with the ganged breaker doing the same thing. Can't say whether or not it is an actual benefit to it, but want to believe that there some out of the box possibilities to be groomed from it.

I have been thinking more about my 12/3 wire configured for two separate circuits.  There is a single neutral and ground wire going back to the panel.  

Does this matter when all neutral and ground wires in a house are going back to their same respective bus bar?  The neutral and ground bus bars are even connected within the panel.  

I would like to understand how two of each returning the panel compare to a single run.

Richard Gray's power stations were resonant filter tanks, widely available for 110 VAC but I'm sure they made at least 1 version that was 220 to 110.

I believe Equitech makes a number of suitable models today.

There are a lot of companies that offer multiple types and sizes of conditioners from single to 16 outlets on a single conditioner, but i would look at audio magic for a whole system conditioner for at least your front end components because it will way outperform the monster power.

If using a dedicated line I found out 2 things from a Audiophile electrician silver 20 amp contacts can be ordered as well as 40 
industrial , and use 4 wire  awg 10 that is what I have 2 grounds,one common ,the other a insulated isolated ground.
and outlets heavy duty copper, gold plated outlets I found the Pangea outlets at $50 each a true bargain ,
and Puritan makes a much better line conditioner then most ,Audio archon sells them ,night and day better then this plain Torroidal  type so called line conditioners ,I had  the top 1800 ultra
from Underwood  the AQniagra 3000 much better ,and the Puritan 
much better still but more $$ also .

If I understand your hookup, should you pull 15 amps on each outlet, there will be 30 amps flowing thru that Long Single neutral wire. 
Or, say pulling 5 amps on circuit 1 and 20 amps on circuit 2.  The 20 audio modulating amps on that long neutral line will reflect a voltage drop that is shared with circuit 1.
I would also remove the neutral gang tab off of the outlet and install that 2nd neutral wire.  I paid for it.  It's there.  Use it.

@kingsleuy  I used 12/3 Romex.  There is not a 2nd neutral wire.

Using Amps = Watts/Volts

On one of the receptacles there is my main amp(max 500 watts) and the preamp(max 130 watts).  This comes out to 5.3 amps.

dhite71 OP149 posts

08-08-2021
6:23pm

I have been thinking more about my 12/3 wire configured for two separate circuits. There is a single neutral and ground wire going back to the panel.

Does this matter when all neutral and ground wires in a house are going back to their same respective bus bar? The neutral and ground bus bars are even connected within the panel.

I would like to understand how two of each returning the panel compare to a single run.

@ dhite71 OP ,

You said in an earlier post you did not hear any differences in the before and after installing the 4 new circuits. As a rule that is not what what audiophiles say. Usually they say their system sounded better and well worth the cost of having a dedicated circuit(s) installed.
And then sometimes there will be a post saying that multiple branch circuits caused hum and buzzing from their audio system. Usually the latter is caused from the wrong type of wiring was used and or the wrong wiring installation  method(s) was used.


As a rule if the connected load is not all that big, therein say less than 20 amps, it is recommended all dedicated circuits be fed from the same Line, (L), leg, from the electrical panel for audio and or video equipment that is connected together by unbalanced wire interconnects.

(Jmho, it also depends on the design of the audio equipment power supply and how the designer connected the B- and signal ground to the metal chassis of the equipment.
The quality of the power transformer used in the equipment can make a big difference. How well does it control capacitance coupling from the primary winding to the secondary winding(s).

//

In most cases the total combined audio equipment ac mains 120V power load is 10 amps continuous or less. The reason given for installing more than one dedicated branch circuit is to decouple the power supplies of the equipment from one another. Especially digital equipment from analog. Something else may be to keep a SMPS(s) away from non SMPS equipment power supplies. With just one branch circuit with everything just plugged into a common power strip there is not any decoupling.
(FWIW, some power conditioners install filtering to isolate receptacle outlets from one another).


With the 3 wire 120/240V multiwire branch circuit, (MWBC), only the unbalanced load, current, of the two 120v circuits to neutral loads return on the shared neutral conductor back to the source. Example, if there is 4 amps on one circuit to shared neutral and 2 amps on the other circuit to shared neutral only 2 amps will return on the neutral conductor to the source. The balanced 120V L1 to neutral and 120V L2 to neutral loads are in series with one another. The two balanced loads are being fed by 240V. (120V respectively measured across each plug/receptacle outlet) That means any digital hash fed back out on the ac Line of the power supply of digital equipment, that is fed from one ac Line, will be in series with a preamp or power amp that is fed from the other ac Line.


Here is a video for you to watch. The guy does a pretty good job of explaining how the secondary winding of a single phase split winding transformer works. (Same way the Utility Power Transformer that feeds your house works).
Look at the wiring on the split phase secondary winding of the transformer as being a 3 wire 120/240V MWBC. Light bulbs represent your audio equipment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVamt9IdQd8

//

Even two individual installed 120V dedicated branch circuits that are connected to breakers on opposite Lines, legs, can cause noise problems when unbalanced wire interconnects are used to connect equipment together.
(One branch circuit connected to a single pole breaker on L1 and the other branch circuit connected to a single pole breaker on L2).


Here is an old quote from a White Paper by ExactPower. (The Web Link is no longer any good.

"Less than 300 microamps of ground loop current can cause hum as it flows in an unbalanced audio interconnect cable. However, harmonics of 60Hz that are generated from lighting dimmers or switch-mode power supplies sound like Buzzz mixed with a bit of Hummm and are more easily coupled by even smaller currents. Harmonics can add together when equipment is powered from different phases, so clearly there is an advantage to specifying same-phase electrical service to power the electronics systems in most cases....

Any leakage currents on the safety ground wires of split single phase load circuits fed by different phase legs will add together due to the 240V potential difference....

Power conditioners do not solve any of these common problems: Cross phase coupling (doubles hums & buzzes) .... What actually does solve them: Same phase power.
http://www.exactpower.com/elite/assets/pdfs/theTRUTH.pdf


"Any leakage currents on the safety ground wires of split single phase load circuits fed by different phase legs will add together due to the 240V potential difference.... "


240V potential difference? Voltage measured from one receptacle Hot contact to the other receptacle Hot contact, of each split wired duplex receptacle, fed by a 3 wire 120/240V MWBC.


Jmho this is at play as well.

(Jmho, it also depends on the design of the audio equipment power supply and how the designer connected the B- and signal ground to the metal chassis of the equipment.
The quality of the power transformer used in the equipment can make a big difference. How well does it control capacitance coupling from the primary winding to the secondary winding(s).

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jea48,

  Thanks so much for the explanation of using different phases of power in an audio system. Now that I have read it, the introduction of different power phases actually increases the chances for different types of noise. In my case, I am currently using one phase only to feed a BPT product which has 6 different secondary windings, each shielded internally in the transformer. I am satisfied with the result.
  

Hello,
Puritan PSM156 is really amazing. It has 6 outlets. The 1512 has 12 outlets. Truly amazing sound. They have less expensive models like the 104d which has 4 outlets. I think once you get this wiring sorted you should demo one. It will be $1160 with a power cord. You should go to the PSM136 for $1600 which comes with the power cord, has 2 more outlets and a almost 3x the filters. If in the Chicagoland area this is the company I bought from. https://holmaudio.com/
They let you try before you buy. I believe in Atlanta, GA this company caries the line:
https://www.11stereo.com/
The next time you go to an audio show check out this product line. It is really good. 

I had a 30A dedicated line installed...30A breaker, 10g wire and a PI Audio UberPuerto outlet. Plugged into that is a 14 outlet PI Audio UberBuss with a 32A Neutrik connector. All outlets independant. Some standard, some for noisy digital components. 
Power Factor Correction of 1. 40+ amp output for unlimited power...

All of my components will be plugged into the UberBuss. Talk to Dave Elledge about the UberBuss in your system.

I also have 2 20A dedicated lines for any additional outlets if necessary.

I would be remiss if I did not mention if an Electrical Contractor/Electrician was hired to install four 120V branch circuits he/she would not install MWBC (s). The reason is the NEC requires all new 15A and 20A branch circuits supplying outlets, per 210.12 (A), shall be AFCI protected. The problem with using a MWBC the 2 pole breaker will nuisance trip for no apparent reason because of the shared neutral.

Example of a 2 pole 15A or 20A AFCI breaker:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-20-Amp-2-Pole-Combination-Arc-Fault-Circuit-Breaker-QO220CAF...


NEC (National Electrical Code)

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupter Protection.
Arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided as required in 210.12 (A), (B), (C), and (D).

(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by any of the means described in 210.12(A)(1) through (6).

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To add to my last post. If a duplex receptacle is split and the two receptacles will each be fed by a separate branch circuit NEC 210.7 shall apply. (It doesn’t matter if one is fed from L1 and the other from L2 or both circuits are fed from two breakers that are fed from the same Line (L), leg.

210.7 Multiple Branch Circuits. Where two or more branch circuits supply devices or equipment on the same yoke or mounting strap, a means to simultaneously disconnect the ungrounded supply conductors shall be provided at the point at which the branch circuits originate.

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Shunyata Research makes the Hydra Alpha 12, has 6 separate zones and is capable of delivering 20 amps of current 

I hope you ran all four outlets to the same leg on your electrical panel. If not, do it.  You will be pleasantly surprised, and all it takes is to switch the breaker around. It is not even necessary to  remove any wires.  Just pop them out and re-arrange them.

danvignau911 posts

08-13-2021
7:02am

I hope you ran all four outlets to the same leg on your electrical panel. If not, do it. You will be pleasantly surprised, and all it takes is to switch the breaker around. It is not even necessary to remove any wires. Just pop them out and re-arrange them.

@ danvignau

The OP installed two 120/240V 3 wire MWBC (Multiwire Branch Circuits).
Each MWBC has 2 hot conductors and 1 shared neutral conductor. With a shared neutral the two hot conductors cannot be fed from the same leg. Doing so would double the current, amps, on the neutral conductor.

The OP therefore must fed each hot conductor of each MWBC from both legs.

Only the unbalanced load of the MWBC returns on the shared neutral conductor to source. The balanced 120V load of L1 to neutral and L2 to neutral are in series with one another and are being fed by 240V. The remaining unbalanced load returns on the neutral conductor to the source.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVamt9IdQd8

Caveat Emptor.

Walter's Core Power Diamond Xtreme cable 15amp was cheap and useless. 

He made a wildly hyped-up 90% - 95% performance comparison guess to Nordost's Valhalla 2 power cable.  He refused a refund and grasped for store credit less 15% restocking fee.  PayPal independently heard us and quickly fully refunded me.

Walter then falsely claimed to Audiogon he'd won an appeal with PayPal. He sent Audiogon a supposed PayPal logo'd appeal confirmation, but oops, he had the wrong transaction number. 

Audiogon chose to delete polite negative feedback, despite an offer for a live 3-way call to PayPal and the proof of three PayPal account screenshot photos.  One might possibly ask is the main priority to keep sales rolling unhindered by the truth of a customer's experience?

Caveat Emptor.