Censorship of the arts within the private (as opposed to governmental/government funded public) realm is just bad news 99% of the time, IMO. If the ‘Stones want to self-censor on this, I suppose it’s their right and it’d be a whole other animal indeed if this were a case of the song being performed on any part of any taxpayer’s tax-dime (????). Same issues dealt with in recent years in the visual arts (Eric Fischl, Andres Serrano, et al…).
The worst censorship is self-censorship. Because if someone else shuts you up at least you still think what you think. In self censoring you no longer allow yourself to even think about certain things. Then there is when they manipulate people into censoring each other. Happens around here all the time. People who already have lost the ability to think for themselves try and impose their lack of free independent thought on others. They are what Stalin used to call "useful idiots" those who have internalized the party line to the point they actually help it along. Like saying this isn’t an example of cancel culture when obviously it totally is.
The Stones are old fogeys! They haven't made a good record since 1994's Voodoo Lounge! Now here's a song they did way back in 1972 on Goat's Head Soup - STAR STAR!
"I’m trying to figure out with the sisters quite where the beef is," Richards said. "Didn’t they understand this was a song about the horrors of slavery? But they’re trying to bury it. At the moment I don’t want to get into conflicts with all of this."
millercarbon-
The worst censorship is self-censorship. Because if someone else shuts you up at least you still think what you think. In self censoring you no longer allow yourself to even think about certain things. Then there is when they manipulate people into censoring each other. Happens around here all the time. People who already have lost the ability to think for themselves try and impose their lack of free independent thought on others. They are what Stalin used to call "useful idiots" those who have internalized the party line to the point they actually help it along. Like saying this isn’t an example of cancel culture when obviously it totally is.
ghastly-
Are you for, against or indifferent to the lyrics of Brown Sugar or just taking the opportunity to state a general position against censorship?
How typically disingenuous of you. If you have anything on topic to contribute by all means please do.
The decision just isn't...Rock & Roll, which the Stones represent.
There is an entire catalog filled with songs that can be interpreted as "unfit" with today's mindset.
Maybe the Stones will eventually be reduced to playing JUST the music and Mick will just silently prance around the stage and do his Mick poses? They will be without Charlie, so it's not authentic Stones, anyhow.
The way I look at it, when you spend your money you get to make a choice. To be part of the problem or part of the solution. Be it sports, what airline to fly, what equipment to buy, films to see or not see and yes even music. If PC is your thing, so be it. If not, so be it. I do not try to change the world or other peoples beliefs, but I vote with my pocketbook every day. Unplugged from cable years ago. Saw the Stones Living Colour tour in 89 @ NCSU stadium. Was excellent. Brown Sugar was the 3rd to last song followed by Satisfaction then Jumpin Jack Flash. Epic show.
I was just trying to figure out which side of the topic you were coming down on but you are so quick to come out swinging. So let me ask again, but more clearly this time: Are you a fan or foe of the song. Were you slamming Keith Richards and criticizing the Rolling Stones for choosing to remove the song from the rotation or criticizing his comments about them choosing to do so.
Man, why are you so sure that everyone is itching for a fight. Geez. When you evoke Stalin...was that against the Stones? Against those to whom they responded by removing the song?
It's a truly great song, but they have been playing it for 50 years. At some point it's time to stop and I'm not even sure the reason is important. Artists evolve and the real fans evolve with them. They've never done "Jig-Saw Puzzle" in concert, maybe it's time?
Brown Sugar, I honestly never really knew the full lyrics until now. The way I see it, the lyrics are not even germane. Not even in the least.
What is germane, the one salient point, the Stones had a song so bloody famously popular it was not only a standard for decades but one of their signature songs they would save for the very end. Kind of like Springsteen Jungleland. Which they stop playing, Why? Because it is no longer popular? People don't want to hear it? They just plain got tired of playing it?
None of those. Which we do not have to guess at either. Because we have Keith Richards himself saying he is trying to figure out why they're trying to bury it. Bury it. See? And even he is afraid to get into it.
Most certainly I am NOT slamming Keith Richards. In this climate I applaud him for even having the guts to mention it at all.
Honestly, I am glad for this thread. Now having read the lyrics the song is a lot more edgy and gritty and real than I knew. In 3 minutes it paints a picture of the past worthy of Tarantino.
Sorry if I jumped down your throat. But a couple things to keep in mind.
One, I am as a student of history keenly aware of just where this sort of thing leads. It leads to millions dead. Every. Single. Time. And two, we got people here so MDS they come back again and again under new user names, mail creepy post cards to my wife, try and get me fired from my job. Lots more here, they may not actually do it, but they think that it happens is just fine and dandy. They are in my mind not all that different than the ones who think it is just fine and dandy to censor and re-write history. If you are not either one of those by all means now is the time to let me know.
Progressivism is regressive. No one is safe because no one is perfect. We are being led back into the dark ages. Real students of history know history repeats itself and we have periods of enlightenment and then once again dark ages. We are in the dimming days. People want to turn their self determination over for safety; their economic potential over for assurances. In order for the masterminds to accomplish their Utopia everyone must comply and those who don't will be dealt with accordingly. They use racism to 'fight' racism, fascist tactics to fight Fascist. They erase history. Everything has to be judged by the Priests in The Temples of Syrinx. Nothing is safe except for friends of the Priests. Envy is a virtue. Theft by force of government is noble. Forced compliance is aspirational.
I am neither Miller. You may recall I was the one and only in the crazy, crazy thread who expressed sorrow that your job was affected. Same went for Yvi’s friend.
As Ive said to you before, you and I come down on opposite sides of some things but at no point is it ever personal nor with malice. Heck, you have tubes so at least I know you value tone. As a matter of fact, I despise bullies and would proudly contribute resources toward rooting out and exposing the coward who sent you or your wife terrible correspondence.
Busting chops on an audio forum in a friendly manner is one thing….what you describe as happening to you is pure BS.
How would the serial politically correct deal with Queen's Fat Bottomed Girls? Also for those old enough to remember a slightly more tolerant era and the furore the Beatles caused with Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. So nothings ever new.
+1 @jdane cancel culture is a myth also I've listened to plenty of songs lately and thought to myself you could never get away with that song today. Societal standards change over time, deal with it.
Do we really need to listen to yet another rewrite of history. There were slaves, they had a bad life the song tells that story. Who wants to hide such facts away, I agree with Keef.
It is a song, a great song, that was written by Richards and Jagger in the context of the times we lived in. No different than Francis Bacon painting or William Burroughs writing in the 1950's. Just because it doesn't align with today's moral agenda, it shouldn't be censored in any way.
It represents a snapshot of the social climate in 1971 and should be enjoyed for what it is. Not used as a pawn in the fight for moral righteousness.
Let's hear them do Midnight Rambler again in concert! One of my favorite Stones alblums is the live Get Yer YaYa's Out recorded at Madison Square Garden.
What "Brown Sugar" says is that the frame of mind of contemporary white men pursuing black women is not that different in kind or type than that of slave owners abusing their charges, and the singer doesn't necessarily exclude himself from this analysis. You must admit that this is hard teaching, and something you might not want to confess when the cops are around. Doubts about whether they can still pull it off at their advanced ages may have played a part in the decision as well.
The cancel culture is nothing new. They banned the Beatles for Lennon’s off the cuff remark about the Beatles being more popular than Jesus. But then they did continue to sell more records than anyone in the world and probably still do. It’s a sad state of affairs when musicians and comedians are silenced. After-all, they are not politicians. The times they are a changin.
While censorship of artists by tyrannous regimes is an abomination, there seems to be no evidence that this is explicit in the current predicament. It is however entirely credible that an implicit and undefined threat exists.
Some people don’t like the words cancel culture (with one poster even putting the words in apostrophes), or even denying the movement exists, so I am going to call this elusive tyranny the Elite. Many may be familiar with the Elite, despite not quite knowing who they are.
Every age has its puritans. But once artists begin tailoring their work in accordance with how well it may be received by the Elites who scream the loudest, their craft is bound to suffer.
As has been noted in no uncertain terms, there is something even much more dispiriting about artists who surrender their freedoms voluntarily when confronted by an undefined and implicit threat by the Elite.
It is a kind of death - it is not in the nature of artists to admit that they are curtailing their own manner of expression in the face of external influences, and in Richard’s words I can read him struggling against kowtowing to ideological expectations.
How dare those young scruffy men imitate poor mostly illiterate black blues singers of the United States! How dare they show a generation of white American privileged kids what amazing music they didn’t know existed right under their noses! If you just shake your head and silently shrug at these mentally unbalanced fascists deciding what is “ right” for everyone and don’t speak out and push back, then shame on you.
Guess they won't be doing 'Paint It Black' either.
Shame on all the woke (read w*nk) idiots who expect the past to be like the present. Go get a time machine, change the past and leave the rest of us alone.
Hello, There is no such thing as bad press. It doesn’t matter what color, race, or religion you are. All lives matter! I truly believe that. Can you imagine what it would cost them to get this kind of international press. Millions! Why is the song bad now, but not decades ago. They have been around for decades. This is self promotion. I have a great idea. Everyone stop listening to The Rolling Stones forever for this fake act of awareness by them. They knew what the song was about at the beginning. If they want to really impress me. Give all their money away to help people of color get better education, start sports programs that they don’t have to pay for, and create youth play areas like nice play grounds and parks to grow up in. Otherwise the private prisons who are literally working against them will be happy to take them in for a nice profit. That is really happening. Stop blaming each other. Blame the people who are making a profit from this.
Regarding what the song is actually about, here is what its writer, Mick Jagger, said:
In the Rolling Stone interview (14 December 1995, RS 723) Jagger
spoke at length about the song, its inspiration and success, and taking
credit for writing the lyrics. Keith Richards also credits Jagger with
the song in his autobiography.[14] Jagger attributed the success of the song to a "good groove". After noting that the lyrics could mean so many lewd subjects,[15]
he again noted that the combination of those subjects, the lyrical
ambiguity was partially why the song was considered successful. He
noted, "That makes it... the whole mess thrown in. God knows what I'm on
about on that song. It's such a mishmash. All the nasty subjects in one
go... I never would write that song now." When interviewer Jann Wenner
asked him why, Jagger replied, "I would probably censor myself. I'd
think, 'Oh God, I can't. I've got to stop. I can't just write raw like
that.'"[16]
And yet, we have rap and hip hop music that promotes disrespect, sexual exploitation, drug use and cop killing. Not all of it, but enough. We are on our second generation of this music. Who listens to this: the young people. Is it influencing society? I think so. I am not for censorship but the only way to get rid of this is to stop buying it; not cancel culture but supply and demand.
The Stones arent being censored, they are making a business decision to not play Brown Sugar at this concert. Full stop. They also made the business decision to announce their decision in the media. Full stop. Sounds like both decisions are achieving the goals of THEIR decision. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, the Stones decided to silence themselves. Another win for political correctness. But I doubt that any true Stones fans would decide to attend or not attend one of their concerts or buy one of their albums because of their decision either way.
"
One more time the Stones have not been "silenced" they made this decision on their own."
They made this decision in response to criticism of the song's content. Do you really think Keith woke up one morning and, for no reason whatsoever, called Mick and said "hey Mick old boy, maybe we should stop playing "Brown Sugar" in concerts"?
For those of us that were around at the time do we remember when the song Lola by the Kinks was released in 1970. Great rock song of the time but there were some people that refused to listen to it because of the context of the song and I'm sure that there are people today that would feel the same way about it.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
