How much should I spend on a new DAC

I recently purchased the TEAC UD-701N and I am extremely pleased with its excellent qualities, particularly the transparency of vocals, resolution, and clarity. The unit is currently in the burn-in process, so I anticipate even further improvements in these aspects. Will keep you updated!

This I can tell you I bought the R26 , I added a lower price pangea sig 14 mk2 using Cardas best -0 Crystal copper $140 and the Synergistic purple fuse was a nice jump up in imaging depth of ,and dynamics, give it a solid play 24-7for a week ,I use the Isotek breakin cd , then use track3 asa tune up tape every other day it’s only a 5 minute sweep . $340 is not much if you listen to music often, it brings this very good dac into a higher range of quality,refined sound 

left in non oversampling mode.

Herb Reichert from Stereophile who does not review the priciest equipment raved about the new Rotel dac and cd transport for under $2500. He said that his pricier dacs were not better necessarily. He did not mention which pricier dacs but I do believe it may well be the Holo May Dac (because he owns it and he compared Rotel to a pricier ladder dac).

This is just to say I dont think a 5K dac is necessarily better than a 2.5K dac.

I use a benchmark dac3 and depending on the associated equipment it can sound great or mediocre. If you feed the benchmark the right combination of tube amplification and the right speakers and cabling and it sounds deep accurate compelling and very enjoyable. On the other hand I have heard the same benchmark dac with same benchmark preamp LA4 sound clinical or too bright if not the right synergy.

bottom line imho its more about the synergy of quality components than the idea that one quality component is ideal for any situation.

I also have two marantz 30N universal players and in one system it sounds fantastic right now and in the other system it currently is uninvolving.....so its not the equipment imho....its the relationship between all the equipment and your room and the power distribution in that room too

I much prefer this pov: how little can I spend and still be happy with the SQ (obviously no DAC is going to "fix" any other problems in my system, including the room)?  With current trends re: (mostly far east) DACs, I feel there's a change in price:performance. As such I'm focusing on a detailed, neutral performance from a DAC and getting the rest of what I want, downstream (processor and speakers - mine are all Active). There are some people who feel strongly that the more you pay for a DAC the better it is; I don't think that's true any more (certainly not from a price:benefit pov). I'm using Qobuz and have only found one MQA album there, so that's not a big deal; if it were, I'd probably investigate DACs that used separate processors to programmatically address that process.

This is ongoing for me, right now; I've got two DACs I'm looking at, and a third is on the way; I'll end up with one for the main system and a second for my PC. I've rejected the Bluesound Node (good reminder to myself to sell it) because of its analog output (my processor has a digital input limit of 24/96 and it would cost me approx. $4k to open that up, so I'll always use the analog out from a DAC) and software.

IIWM I'd start at the lower/middle ends of the newer well-reviewed DACs; pick your two best, return the lesser and see if the remaining one sounds/feels great - if not, use that as a base for the next product you'll test. For me it's like not letting perfect be the enemy of good.  Best of luck.

I have the Musician Pegasus and its by far and away the best Dac I've owned. I think its around 3k (got it in a trade).

I'm sure there are lotsa good ones but I've always played in the 1-1.5k area and this ones a lot better. 

If I was interested in an excellent standalone budget DAC, this would be the one that I would choose (or try, with their 30 day audition) which Steven Stone rates very highly. For more money, I would probably consider the Holo Spring 3 KTE, the Denafrips Pontus 2,or the Schiit Yggdrasil (not sure which variation). 

Topping

I have never heard the  DAC.  However I have no trouble imagining, based upon my experience with Pro Ject gear, that it doesn’t begin to hold a candle to the rest of your very capable system.  I think you might find that a DAC upgrade is a significant, major improvement. As another poster indicated the biggest improvements in DACs is going from $1k to $5K.  Streamers matter as well, though the DAC is more important.  Yes, you can get good sound from a PC, but even a $500 streamer will clear up some audible PC issues and will be easier to use.

Thank you everyone for your comments. I will probably pull the trigger on the TEAC UD-701N next week. It have 4 linear power supplies, Two for the left and right channel for the analog output, one for the network module (streamer) and one for the digital module. It also have analog preamplification stage and headphones amplifier. Its like 4 separates packed in one box.  The greatest thing is that they use absolutely the same DAC, preamp and headphone module as from their high-end Esoteric N05-XD. If anyone is interested I've created separate thread on audiphilestyle forums. https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/67406-teac-ud-701n-undiscovered-gem-or-farce

This is one of the best reviews I’ve seen of 4 of the top rated DAC’s - very informative.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=holo+audio+may+KTE+%26+Spring+KTE+compared

I have the Yggdrasil OG - which is a superb R2R DAC for a very reasonable price. If I were to upgrade it would likely be to the Holo Audio May KTE that this guy reviews and compares to the Yggy, the Spring KTE and the Chord HUGO TT2.

I’ve seen others compare the May KTE to the MSB DAC (pricey & perhaps the best at any price).

And yes... an R2R DAC, without oversampling, DSD, etc. - the most realistic sound quality comes from non-oversampling DAC’s. Though, if you want to spend the money - the Chord HUGO TT2, may be as good as it gets without spending MSB kind of money (which is ridiculous money for most people).

And... yes... a streamer / player like the Bryston BDP 3, will do a good job of transmitting a clean, noise-free signal to your DAC.

Check this out if you want a bit of an idea how great the Holo Audio DAC’s can sound - though this guy’s system components have some significant upgrades that produce this incredible sound quality (they’re not just off-the-shelf components)!

celestial_sound,

Dump the PC, even an entry level streamer like a Bluesound Node (130) will best the PC if you bypass the internal DAC with a separate high quality DAC. Others can give you better recommendations on the streamer; but some day I'll own an Aurender. Run ethernet from into the streamer, either with or without something like the Ether ReGen

I agree on the R2R ladder DAC idea, but it has to be better than a Denafrips Ares. I have heard the following R2R ladder DACs in my system and can whole heartedly recommend them:

* Musician Aquarius $3,100

* Musician Pegasus $1,100 (only with a DDC like a Denafrips Iris $550)

* Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE edition $3,100

* Denafrips Pontus II (or the newer Pontus II 12th anniversary $1,850) which soars when the Denafrips Iris DDC is added at $550 - This is what I own

Best of luck to you, this is the fun part

@jetter - Toslink has less bandwidth, so can eliminate high resolution files as being an option.  The other factor is that using a Toslink required to additional conversions from electrical to light and back.  I’ve not really made an effort to compare, so won’t make any proclamations on SQ as I’m sure there isn’t only one answer. 

Please realize that any high-end brand name cable from Ali express (any cables out of china) is likely fake. 
 

wont comment on their no name cables but I would doubt they are any good for the caliber of audio system you have. 

Before spending money to relpace your dac, try replacing the coax and power cord with Odin 2 Silver and Gold from Ali-Express. First I replaced a Pangea coax ($169) with an Odin 2 Silver Coax, and was amazed, I then completely replaced all my hi-end cables ($$$$) with Nordost Odin 2 (not Nordost, but incredible value). The gold for component power cords and speaker cables. Power amps need to swing more current. See Amazon for fabulous PCs under $50.00. I bought 2 of these

,

Wow… advice all over the place from folks. 
most of it garbage. 
 

lucky for you I also own a project dac box s2+ and a pass amp (not their integrated amp). 
 

first, I got the ifi elite power supply for the project dac. 
 

this made a huge difference. 
 

you have a good dac that with the ifi power supply will compete with dacs in the <$2000 range. I have done this with compare with the qutest and the Pontus and the dac box with the ifi elite power supply and the dac box s2+ is still in my system. 
 

the other area is your speaker cables and other cables. Your cables are well below the capability of your system. 
 

do not replace your integrated amp as someone suggested, you have a very nice integrated amp. 
 

so better cables and and the ifi elite power supply for is what I recommend to take your sound reproduction to the next level. 

Hi jetter, We literally have buildings miles apart with fiber between them. Fiber is great when working well, but it's a pain when it's not. I don't know if they sell tools to clean Toslink connections, but we use tools that look like they have dental floss in them to clean fiber. The quality of the glass, the method used to polish the ends, all come into play. I use coax at home, I don't need to send 100 gigabytes a second, or to deal with the issues that accompany fiber, I get enough of that at work. I am not a fiber expert, we use specific cables based upon the amount of data we expect it to handle and the associated switches and associated equipment. We don't use Toslink, I don't know if it was ever used in networking, I haven't been working with networks for that long. This opinion is worth everything you paid for it.

Lou

@yyzsantabarbara Thanks for the information, very helpful. I just put in an order for a Wireworld acrylic toslink cable to see for myself and assuming I like it will move up to the Wireworld glass toslink.

@jetter My new PEachtree GAN1 amp only has 1 input, it is a SPDIF. To get my Fibre stream into that amp I bought a $499 Sonore UltraDigital. I also bought a WyWire SPDIF cable with BNC on one end and SPDIF on the other. The UltraDigital comes with a BNC adapter so if your cable is RCA on both ends the adapter can be used. I connected 1 of my Sonore OpticalRendu's with the UltraDigital and had beautiful, streamed music. The UltraDigital gets its power from the USB out of the opticalRendu. 

I may not use the UltraDigital if I sell 1 or my OpticalRendu's because my new Livingroom DAC has SPDIF streaming output, which can go directly into my PeachTree GAN1.

The GAN1 will be used only for headphones. A switch on the DAC allows to change the streaming outputs.

Sorry to go off topic, but would anyone explain if using a toslink cable between the streamer and DAC eliminates or reduces unwanted artifacts from the power supply (switching in my streamer’s case) and other network induced noise?

What are the downsides to using a toslink versus SPDIF coaxial cable? I ask because a poster indicated that a toslink connection is inferior to SPDIF. My older modded Museatex Meitner DAC only has inputs for SPDIF and toslink so no need to get into other connections.

A plus if someone has actual experience in this area.

Thanks

@celestial__sound 

Search and read the forums. Watch YouTube videos (Hans Beekhuyzen, John Darko), read reviews. there’s wealth of information available that explains the benefits of a streamer over using a computer to stream your music. 

Would anyone here with engineering background will bother to explain how the network streamer affects the sound quality, or can point to any research or documentation from the web? Thanks

UpTone-J.Swenson EtherREGEN ’white paper’.pdf (shopify.com)

John Swenson’s Tech Corner – UpTone Audio

This guy created the Optical Rendu too.

I use a EtherRegen from a network switch. A short Ethernet cable goes from the switch to the ER. I use the ER from B > A and the A side sends a fibre optical stream to my OpticalRendu. That goes by USB to my lower cost DAC. I have 2 of these DAC and selling 1.

My higer cost DAC has fibre built-in and the plan is to get a FMC (like a ER) and connect the fibre directly to the DAC.

The FMC is not a must but it does improve the clairity of sound a bit.

It is not just 1’s and 0’s since analog cables like Ethernet can carry network noise into the DAC. A glass fibre cable cannot carry this noise. Ed Mietner says the same thing on his web site. Switching power supplies like on a network switch also have analog noise, as does a computer connected to the network. I have all of this noise and more. However, I use fibre to stop it just before the DAC. It is so easy to hear the difference in sound. That is why I only use fibre for all my setups (4).

I have 1 DAC that cost $3300 and another that cost $14000 (but with built-in streaming). In terms of the DAC sound, I like both equally. The higher priced DAC showed me that the laws of diminishing returns seem to be very strong for DACs.

With my lower cost DAC I use a Sonore OpticalRendu (fibre) for streaming and that is equivalent to the built-in fibre streaming in the more expensive DAC. The oR can be found from $1-$2K.

The amp and speakers are fine for moderate listening levels, unless you crank it up a lot and expect maximum dynamics. Ignore the naysayers who don’t understand lower power Pass amps, or never owned one. Ditch the noisy computer front end, and the 9038 equipped project dac that makes it even more grainy. No, its not just zeroes and ones. Having less noise and a darker background on your front end matters, musically. Yes, as stated many times already - a good streamer and dac are in order and will help if you truly want your handle to be true @celestial__sound

Try to 45-day buy-demo at least two different streamers/dacs, paired with a really good power supply (quieter) and you’ll hear and realize the difference first hand. Lots of good suggestions here, above. See R2R Ladder NOS dacs, or Auralic, Gustard, Innuous, others. >>Read up on the numerous prior R2R Ladder DAC threads here on Agon too<<. Your Pass Labs amp and Sonus Faber speakers deserve a lot better upstream. Best of Luck.

 If anything I would get rid of the Pass amp and get an amp with a lot more power, say 200wpc. The Pass's 25wpc is really limiting the dynamic capabilities of the Sonus Faber speakers!

Good grief.

Pass Labs specifies the XA25's output power as 25Wpc into 8 ohms and 50Wpc into 4 ohms (both equivalent to 14dBW). However, as you can see in figs. 4 and 5, the amplifier exceeded its specified power output at the clipping point, which we define as when the THD+noise equals 1%. At that THD+N percentage the XA25 delivered 80Wpc into 8 ohms (19dBW) and 130Wpc into 4 ohms (18.1dBW). It appears from the shape of the traces in these graphs that Pass specifies the XA25's power as when the THD+N is close to 0.01%

https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-laboratories-xa25-power-amplifier-measurements

Jamnesta brought up a super interesting option, the brand new Gustard a26. After looking into it, it would be my first choice if I move away from the x26. Gustard is really putting the pressure on the competition. 

I'll tell you what....buy the Musical Fidelity v90 dac and call it a day. If you can still find one, they are usually $299 new. It's all you need and sounds wonderful. Sterephile agrees...

OP.

I bought an Auralic Altair G1 streamer/DAC one box solution. I am ecstatic. It is so simple and the quality is extremely good for the price of around $3,500 USD. It punches way above its price point. BTW I use Quobuz.

Bruce

Try Hans Beekhuyzen on YouTube. He just dropped another relevant one today about switches. 

Thank you all for your responses. Tbh I never included the streamer as an upgrade path option. My understanding was that the digital stream is only zeroes and ones and it should not affect the sound quality in any way. But based on so many user experiences here It clearly does. 

Would anyone here with engineering background will bother to explain how the network streamer affects the sound quality, or can point to any research or documentation from the web?  Thanks 

Another vote for getting a real streamer first.  You might decide that you don’t need another DAC.

All the best.

The Gustard R26, something I’m definitely interested in has a rival in the family; the Gustard A26 with the new AKM chipset that’s getting some positive attention.

@soix 

Thanks for spending time talking to me about the values of the r26. If you read all the reviews on the Amazon link you provided, you will see a couple of very negative ones regarding obvious sound issues probably due to some manufacturing problems. Understandable since r2r is a brand new thing for Gustard. And it's not the only site where I heard of these issues. I will be patient and wait another year, when my pro26 warranty runs out, before I may give it a try. Those issues will likely be resolved by then. 

@celestial__sound

Hi - my system is pretty similar, broadly, and I’m running a MacBook with Roon/Tidal as my source.

When I upgraded from a DAC comparable to the Pro-Ject, I went with the Benchark DAC3, and am delighted with the choice. Hadn’t anticipated the difference would be so tangible and immediate. I don’t feel any desire to search further.  Had the same reasoning on budget, btw

I use Tidal, and decided I could live without MQA given how good the Benchmark is. Haven’t missed MQA (or, said another way, I’m so pleased with the sound that I don’t really care about further experimentation)

Returnable if not to your taste (if purchased as an amazon prime member)

(I Kimber Kable for everything (their second tier up) - figure it’s well built with good materials, and that’s enough mental investment in cabling for me)

Let us know what you decide, and enjoy!

+1 @sgreg1 is spot on, the Gustard R26 is truly the only 'unicorn' DAC I've yet had in this crazy hobby, replaced my Terminator II, also that frees up your funds for a good ethernet switch + fiber optic isolation kit, which will give you almost as clear uptick in SQ as the R26 - and don't forget to spend freely on good cables, EVERYTHING in a digital source chain is important IME.

@adg101 I’m glad you’re happy with your sound, but I’d suggest trying this R2R DAC, and if it’s not a big improvement just return it. My bet is it’ll be very interesting if nothing else, and my bet is you keep it. Like Wilson speakers it excels at 3D imaging/soundstage so could be some good synergy FWIW.  And I agree, get a streamer before looking at a DAC — it’s a total game changer. 
https://smile.amazon.com/Musician-Pegasus-Decoder-DSD1024-Amplifier/dp/B0891SPSWJ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=K4EGCAEP620D&keywords=musician%2BPegasus&qid=1674189817&sprefix=musician%2Bpegasus%2Caps%2C121&sr=8-1&th=1

cele,

To address your question- $2-$3k will get a DAC that

keeps up with your other gear.  There is a DAC du Jour 

introduced every week so I am not going to suggest anything

in particular. Many good choices.

You have some very musical gear, congrats!

I use the Innuos Zen3 streamer which is a No-Dac, 3 box solution

I love. I also use the INT25. If you listen loud -80db+ 

and have a larger room -over 400 sqft- you may benefit 

from a bigger amp. 

Keep us posted please.

Well I’m going to have to drag home one of these $4-6k DAC’s, because right now I’m listening to Cowboy Junkies, “The Trinity Sessions” through my RME ADI 2fs with Teddy Pardo LPS, Nordost Frey 2 Balance direct to Cary V12, Frey 2 speaker cables finally to Wilson WP 6’s and I can’t image without upgrading speakers it could get much better. I’m sure the big dollar DAC’s are better but I’m not too worried about it. 

Before I would dish out big bucks on a DAC, I’d look at a streamer over using a computer. Never used a PC admittedly so I could be missing something. I have owned Kimber 8TC and a couple PK10 Golds and they are good cables, but not the last word in resolution, air and speed. I’d experiment with other cables first before you toss your Pro Ject to the curb. If the Pro Ject uses a SMPS maybe spend $400 and get a good LPS like a Teddy Pardo. 

I don’t know your Pass but own a X250. I’m sure your INT 25 is wonderful with your SF which I have heard. Thinking that combo is great. I’d suggest a cable upgrade, a linear power supply on your DAC if it’s a switched type and for starters try the current Node as a streamer. 

Good luck. 
 

I read all the hoopla about the r26 upon its release. Obviously this is Gustard's way to go with the flow as to not miss on any sales. I get it. However, in my system and room, the r2r ultimately did not give me the clarity that I get from my vinyl rig. The delta sigma is much closer to it. Whether that has to do with a lesser expensive r2r vs. a more expensive delta sigma, I don't know and don't need to find out at this point.

@baylinor Yes, but you compared your DAC to an R2R DAC that’s literally half the price and you think that’s apples to apples?  You’re happy and that’s fine, but don’t kid yourself that you’ve got something superior to an R2R DAC because you haven’t done a valid comparison.  Comparing your DAC, which is obviously a good DAC, to a DAC that’s half the price is just not a good benchmark to go by.   Compare it to an R26 and I’d love to hear your impressions.  The review I linked was a head-to-head comparison with your DAC and the R26 in the same system and the results weren’t close — the R26 was clearly superior in pretty much every way.  By all means be happy with your X26, but do not presume to use your apples-to-oranges comparison to extrapolate that your DAC is better than R2R DACs in the same price category.

celestial__sound OP

86 posts

01-19-2023 at 09:12pm 

@soix 

I understand the computer can be a weak link. But, even though if I add a good streamer I will still have to use the PC as a roon core. I don't think using a  LAN connection instead of USB will make such a big difference  

@celestial__sound wait…I thought you came here for advice. Doesn’t look like you have much experience in setting up a good streaming front end. So what are you basing your doubts on?

Gustard R26.

I just prefer the sound to a, not the most expensive delta sigma around, smsl 10, though that was connected to node 2i via toslink.

The smsl 10 didn’t sound “bad” but the tos link has it’s limits. Still a good little delta sigma with a lot of choices for output filters

I also removed the Node 2i, too many issues with the frustrating lack of control over the wifi.

I have found $5-7k gives you very good reference quality beating dacs at 2 x the $$ spent  in naturalness and musicality across the board.

tops in my new listening list is the T&A 200 dac , then Between HoloSprings May KTE  dac and latest Denafrips12 anniversary   Terminator + dac.

Here is the link to Bircasti review. 

http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/bricasti-design-m3-dac-by-terry-london

I think Delta Sigma and R2R can sound amazing. It is really a journey to what sounds good to you and the music you like.  I fall on the side of warm and fun to vs the uber detailed presentation.

jh

I have the U2 mini and it is a great streamer.  I have a Reimyo DAC that is a ladder dac and only does 44.1.  I love that DAC.  I have a SPL Director Pre-amp which also has a DAC that runs hi-res files.  I can't hear any diff in hi-res vs 44.1.

Terry London did a review on the Bircasti DAC on Stereotimes so you can read it there. Also check out Twittering Machines website because he reviewed the U2 mini and a lot of DACs.  I would highly say to get a way to hear it in your system because synergy amoung the parts is way more important than anytyhing else,.  I found this out when I plugged in $300 Hsu speakers I bought used into my $15K electronics and was stunned at how good they sounded.  No one would ever recommend those speakers for my system.  Love this stuff.

jh

@soix 

I'm aware. I read all the hoopla about the r26 upon its release. Obviously this is Gustard's way to go with the flow as to not miss on any sales. I get it. However, in my system and room, the r2r ultimately did not give me the clarity that I get from my vinyl rig. The delta sigma is much closer to it. Whether that has to do with a lesser expensive r2r vs. a more expensive delta sigma, I don't know and don't need to find out at this point. You are one of the guys who leaned me to go with r2r and I never regretted it. You were helpful in many ways and without experiencing it in my specific system and room, I would have never known. Also, the main thing that held me back from going up the ladder with denafrips r2r is none of their dacs features a remote, an absolute necessary for my enjoyment. In fact I shared that with Alvin. I did buy a Jay's cdt2-mk3 from him though, with remote, great guy.

+1 on the Bricasti M3.  I would look for a used Bricasti with a network steamer card.  
 

I just bought a Black Ice tube DAC on sale (direct from Black Ice) for $899. They offer a 45 day no risk trial. My initial impression of the DAC and the company is very good. As others have said, you need a streamer and the Node has been suggested which is what I have. I have no clue about the ROON side of the equation.

Someone suggested ditching Tidal - I'm a Tidal user (basic service I do not have MQA) and have been a/b testing Qobuz over the last 2 months to see what the fuss was all about - and so far I have zero reason to switch purely based on sound quality. Today Qobuz started playing songs from a few seconds into the track and then skipping to the next song. Happened multiple times with different albums. Never happened with Tidal. But why not get a free month and see for yourself?

I’m not up on Roon, but pretty sure the Innuos can be used as a Roon endpoint so there may still be a benefit.  Maybe someone else can chime in here?

@baylinor I know you like your X26, but with the Ares you’re comparing a lesser R2R DAC so not surprised you preferred your Gustard.  Here’s a review that directly compares the X26 to the Gustard R26 R2R DAC, which is a more fair comparison, and the reviewer has a clear preference for the latter and puts it in the top 5 of all DACs he’s heard regardless of price.

https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/a-new-point-of-reference-gustard-r26-discrete-r-2r-ladder-dac-review/

Go audition streamers and DACs. Only you can decide what would be best for you. Not this forum. All you are going to get are opinions. 

I agree that the PC is a limiting factor and would get a streamer/DAC combo. HiFi Rose, NAD or Cocktail Audio come to mind,

I agree that separate streamer and dac would do you a lot of good. However I would put the brakes on the r2r recommendations for a dac. I had an Ares II and then bought a delta sigma Gustard X26 PRO and ended up selling the Ares II. No doubts that the Gustard offered a much better sound in my specific system. A Bluesound Node 130 connected to the Gustard would be a great start for about $2k. Then the upgrades start... Made quite a few myself but stuck with the Node and Gustard. Enjoy the trip.