What sources are you using for music playback?
How much should I spend on a new DAC
Hello Gents. What would be reasonable sum to spend on a new DAC relative to my current audio rig.
Speakers: Sonus Faber Olympica II
Integrated Amp: Pass Labs INT-25
DAC: Pro-Ject Dac Box S2+
Speaker Cables: Kimber 8VS Bi-Wire
Power cable: Kimber PK10 Base
Interconnects: Audioquest Tower
I must say I'm very happy with the music coming out of my speakers but It's obvious that the DAC is not the same league as the rest of the equipment.
68 responses Add your response
Thank you for your replay. I couldn't agree with you. The pass labs make the biggest improvement in my listening experience. Previously owned class D Primare I35 prisma. The pass wiped the floor with the Primare in terms of Dynamics, Grunt, Authority, Soundstage. You really should listen to Pass amp(s) to see what am I talking about.
|
I really wasn’t referring to an all in one solution, but that would be one option. I guess that a reasonable response would be how much are you willing to spend? I suspect that your budget will determine the answer in that your system would probably benefit from a major upgrade to both your streamer and DAC. |
I’d say your source should be on the level of your amp and speakers. I use Bricasti M3 DAC with a built in Roon compatible Network Player. Since you are using your PC as a roon core, you can kill two birds with one stone with something like the M3 - upgrade the DAC and get rid of a computer as a streamer. The improvement will be very substantial. |
With the right streamer & DAC there should be a major improvement, but then cleaning up power and the right cabling will again improve things. Maybe visit some dealers and get an idea of where you want to go…not what you want to buy. Great buying from a local dealer, but take the money consideration out of the equation when shopping for where you want to go with your system. |
Gustard R26. Built in streamer end point , bluetooth, usb, coax, I2S inputs. BNC to add external clock. Most reviewers rate on par with any out there up to 6K. I have it and live it. Can’t give you a comparison as this is my first major dac. All for $1500! If you want to spend more add the external click and a fiber media conversion for the lan input. |
I have a pretty similar setup with Olympica Nova II powered by Pass XP12 and XA30.8 and it sounds really great. I understand the XA25 should also be excellent with our Olympicas. As for the digital front-end, your system will respond to and be very revealing with every improvement you make there. After having had a Schiit Yggdrasil,I was able to get a 2nd hand dCS Bartok. Definitely no regrets and if I could stretch to a Rosinni I'd get it tomorrow. You could consider a Holo May KTE as it also works really well with Pass and Sonus faber. Denafrips don't do it for me. |
Your biggest bottleneck is probably using the computer as your source, and adding a good streamer will make a huge improvement and probably more than upgrading your DAC. That said, for around $3k you could add both this Innuos streamer and Gustard DAC and you’ll be in a whole new world of performance. Also, ditch Tidal and give Qobuz a try. Just my $0.02 FWIW, and best of luck. |
I agree that separate streamer and dac would do you a lot of good. However I would put the brakes on the r2r recommendations for a dac. I had an Ares II and then bought a delta sigma Gustard X26 PRO and ended up selling the Ares II. No doubts that the Gustard offered a much better sound in my specific system. A Bluesound Node 130 connected to the Gustard would be a great start for about $2k. Then the upgrades start... Made quite a few myself but stuck with the Node and Gustard. Enjoy the trip. |
I’m not up on Roon, but pretty sure the Innuos can be used as a Roon endpoint so there may still be a benefit. Maybe someone else can chime in here? @baylinor I know you like your X26, but with the Ares you’re comparing a lesser R2R DAC so not surprised you preferred your Gustard. Here’s a review that directly compares the X26 to the Gustard R26 R2R DAC, which is a more fair comparison, and the reviewer has a clear preference for the latter and puts it in the top 5 of all DACs he’s heard regardless of price. |
I just bought a Black Ice tube DAC on sale (direct from Black Ice) for $899. They offer a 45 day no risk trial. My initial impression of the DAC and the company is very good. As others have said, you need a streamer and the Node has been suggested which is what I have. I have no clue about the ROON side of the equation. Someone suggested ditching Tidal - I'm a Tidal user (basic service I do not have MQA) and have been a/b testing Qobuz over the last 2 months to see what the fuss was all about - and so far I have zero reason to switch purely based on sound quality. Today Qobuz started playing songs from a few seconds into the track and then skipping to the next song. Happened multiple times with different albums. Never happened with Tidal. But why not get a free month and see for yourself?
|
I'm aware. I read all the hoopla about the r26 upon its release. Obviously this is Gustard's way to go with the flow as to not miss on any sales. I get it. However, in my system and room, the r2r ultimately did not give me the clarity that I get from my vinyl rig. The delta sigma is much closer to it. Whether that has to do with a lesser expensive r2r vs. a more expensive delta sigma, I don't know and don't need to find out at this point. You are one of the guys who leaned me to go with r2r and I never regretted it. You were helpful in many ways and without experiencing it in my specific system and room, I would have never known. Also, the main thing that held me back from going up the ladder with denafrips r2r is none of their dacs features a remote, an absolute necessary for my enjoyment. In fact I shared that with Alvin. I did buy a Jay's cdt2-mk3 from him though, with remote, great guy. |
I have the U2 mini and it is a great streamer. I have a Reimyo DAC that is a ladder dac and only does 44.1. I love that DAC. I have a SPL Director Pre-amp which also has a DAC that runs hi-res files. I can't hear any diff in hi-res vs 44.1. Terry London did a review on the Bircasti DAC on Stereotimes so you can read it there. Also check out Twittering Machines website because he reviewed the U2 mini and a lot of DACs. I would highly say to get a way to hear it in your system because synergy amoung the parts is way more important than anytyhing else,. I found this out when I plugged in $300 Hsu speakers I bought used into my $15K electronics and was stunned at how good they sounded. No one would ever recommend those speakers for my system. Love this stuff. jh |
Here is the link to Bircasti review. http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/bricasti-design-m3-dac-by-terry-london I think Delta Sigma and R2R can sound amazing. It is really a journey to what sounds good to you and the music you like. I fall on the side of warm and fun to vs the uber detailed presentation. jh |
Gustard R26. I just prefer the sound to a, not the most expensive delta sigma around, smsl 10, though that was connected to node 2i via toslink. The smsl 10 didn’t sound “bad” but the tos link has it’s limits. Still a good little delta sigma with a lot of choices for output filters I also removed the Node 2i, too many issues with the frustrating lack of control over the wifi. |
@celestial__sound wait…I thought you came here for advice. Doesn’t look like you have much experience in setting up a good streaming front end. So what are you basing your doubts on? |
@baylinor Yes, but you compared your DAC to an R2R DAC that’s literally half the price and you think that’s apples to apples? You’re happy and that’s fine, but don’t kid yourself that you’ve got something superior to an R2R DAC because you haven’t done a valid comparison. Comparing your DAC, which is obviously a good DAC, to a DAC that’s half the price is just not a good benchmark to go by. Compare it to an R26 and I’d love to hear your impressions. The review I linked was a head-to-head comparison with your DAC and the R26 in the same system and the results weren’t close — the R26 was clearly superior in pretty much every way. By all means be happy with your X26, but do not presume to use your apples-to-oranges comparison to extrapolate that your DAC is better than R2R DACs in the same price category. |
Well I’m going to have to drag home one of these $4-6k DAC’s, because right now I’m listening to Cowboy Junkies, “The Trinity Sessions” through my RME ADI 2fs with Teddy Pardo LPS, Nordost Frey 2 Balance direct to Cary V12, Frey 2 speaker cables finally to Wilson WP 6’s and I can’t image without upgrading speakers it could get much better. I’m sure the big dollar DAC’s are better but I’m not too worried about it. Before I would dish out big bucks on a DAC, I’d look at a streamer over using a computer. Never used a PC admittedly so I could be missing something. I have owned Kimber 8TC and a couple PK10 Golds and they are good cables, but not the last word in resolution, air and speed. I’d experiment with other cables first before you toss your Pro Ject to the curb. If the Pro Ject uses a SMPS maybe spend $400 and get a good LPS like a Teddy Pardo. I don’t know your Pass but own a X250. I’m sure your INT 25 is wonderful with your SF which I have heard. Thinking that combo is great. I’d suggest a cable upgrade, a linear power supply on your DAC if it’s a switched type and for starters try the current Node as a streamer. Good luck.
|
cele, To address your question- $2-$3k will get a DAC that keeps up with your other gear. There is a DAC du Jour introduced every week so I am not going to suggest anything in particular. Many good choices. You have some very musical gear, congrats!
I use the Innuos Zen3 streamer which is a No-Dac, 3 box solution I love. I also use the INT25. If you listen loud -80db+ and have a larger room -over 400 sqft- you may benefit from a bigger amp. Keep us posted please.
|
@adg101 I’m glad you’re happy with your sound, but I’d suggest trying this R2R DAC, and if it’s not a big improvement just return it. My bet is it’ll be very interesting if nothing else, and my bet is you keep it. Like Wilson speakers it excels at 3D imaging/soundstage so could be some good synergy FWIW. And I agree, get a streamer before looking at a DAC — it’s a total game changer. |
+1 @sgreg1 is spot on, the Gustard R26 is truly the only 'unicorn' DAC I've yet had in this crazy hobby, replaced my Terminator II, also that frees up your funds for a good ethernet switch + fiber optic isolation kit, which will give you almost as clear uptick in SQ as the R26 - and don't forget to spend freely on good cables, EVERYTHING in a digital source chain is important IME. |
Hi - my system is pretty similar, broadly, and I’m running a MacBook with Roon/Tidal as my source. When I upgraded from a DAC comparable to the Pro-Ject, I went with the Benchark DAC3, and am delighted with the choice. Hadn’t anticipated the difference would be so tangible and immediate. I don’t feel any desire to search further. Had the same reasoning on budget, btw I use Tidal, and decided I could live without MQA given how good the Benchmark is. Haven’t missed MQA (or, said another way, I’m so pleased with the sound that I don’t really care about further experimentation) Returnable if not to your taste (if purchased as an amazon prime member) (I Kimber Kable for everything (their second tier up) - figure it’s well built with good materials, and that’s enough mental investment in cabling for me) Let us know what you decide, and enjoy! |
Thanks for spending time talking to me about the values of the r26. If you read all the reviews on the Amazon link you provided, you will see a couple of very negative ones regarding obvious sound issues probably due to some manufacturing problems. Understandable since r2r is a brand new thing for Gustard. And it's not the only site where I heard of these issues. I will be patient and wait another year, when my pro26 warranty runs out, before I may give it a try. Those issues will likely be resolved by then. |
Thank you all for your responses. Tbh I never included the streamer as an upgrade path option. My understanding was that the digital stream is only zeroes and ones and it should not affect the sound quality in any way. But based on so many user experiences here It clearly does. Would anyone here with engineering background will bother to explain how the network streamer affects the sound quality, or can point to any research or documentation from the web? Thanks |
Good grief.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-laboratories-xa25-power-amplifier-measurements |
The amp and speakers are fine for moderate listening levels, unless you crank it up a lot and expect maximum dynamics. Ignore the naysayers who don’t understand lower power Pass amps, or never owned one. Ditch the noisy computer front end, and the 9038 equipped project dac that makes it even more grainy. No, its not just zeroes and ones. Having less noise and a darker background on your front end matters, musically. Yes, as stated many times already - a good streamer and dac are in order and will help if you truly want your handle to be true @celestial__sound Try to 45-day buy-demo at least two different streamers/dacs, paired with a really good power supply (quieter) and you’ll hear and realize the difference first hand. Lots of good suggestions here, above. See R2R Ladder NOS dacs, or Auralic, Gustard, Innuous, others. >>Read up on the numerous prior R2R Ladder DAC threads here on Agon too<<. Your Pass Labs amp and Sonus Faber speakers deserve a lot better upstream. Best of Luck.
|
I have 1 DAC that cost $3300 and another that cost $14000 (but with built-in streaming). In terms of the DAC sound, I like both equally. The higher priced DAC showed me that the laws of diminishing returns seem to be very strong for DACs. With my lower cost DAC I use a Sonore OpticalRendu (fibre) for streaming and that is equivalent to the built-in fibre streaming in the more expensive DAC. The oR can be found from $1-$2K. |
UpTone-J.Swenson EtherREGEN ’white paper’.pdf (shopify.com) John Swenson’s Tech Corner – UpTone Audio This guy created the Optical Rendu too. I use a EtherRegen from a network switch. A short Ethernet cable goes from the switch to the ER. I use the ER from B > A and the A side sends a fibre optical stream to my OpticalRendu. That goes by USB to my lower cost DAC. I have 2 of these DAC and selling 1. My higer cost DAC has fibre built-in and the plan is to get a FMC (like a ER) and connect the fibre directly to the DAC. The FMC is not a must but it does improve the clairity of sound a bit. It is not just 1’s and 0’s since analog cables like Ethernet can carry network noise into the DAC. A glass fibre cable cannot carry this noise. Ed Mietner says the same thing on his web site. Switching power supplies like on a network switch also have analog noise, as does a computer connected to the network. I have all of this noise and more. However, I use fibre to stop it just before the DAC. It is so easy to hear the difference in sound. That is why I only use fibre for all my setups (4).
|
Sorry to go off topic, but would anyone explain if using a toslink cable between the streamer and DAC eliminates or reduces unwanted artifacts from the power supply (switching in my streamer’s case) and other network induced noise? What are the downsides to using a toslink versus SPDIF coaxial cable? I ask because a poster indicated that a toslink connection is inferior to SPDIF. My older modded Museatex Meitner DAC only has inputs for SPDIF and toslink so no need to get into other connections. A plus if someone has actual experience in this area. Thanks |