How does bi-wiring work?

I tried (WBC) jumpers on my AZ Satori Shotguns.  I hear exactly what you describe.  It's not subtle, they're staying!  Thanks for the tip.

I did the same thing (WBC jumpers) with my shotgunned B&W 805s.  I think it sounds better, but I did a couple of other things at about the same time. It certainly didn't hurt.

@wlutke Very glad to hear!  And thanks for the follow up.  Cables can be a risky thing to recommend because they can be so system dependent, so I’m happy it worked out in your situation.

@soix 

I tried (WBC) jumpers on my AZ Satori Shotguns.  I hear exactly what you describe.  It's not subtle, they're staying!  Thanks for the tip.

P of PS Audio. Like most of us an interesting cat, sometimes right, sometimes wrong…. 

I'll take Paul McGowan's word for it. Biwiring is a waste.

Who is this man they call Paul McGowan?  Is he a myth, or does he truly exist?

I'll take Paul McGowan's word for it. Biwiring is a waste.

Gentlemen,

Is the discussion + - to + -

or + to ++ and - to --?

Two normal speaker cables can be connected either way.

Did I mis something?  Was that ever the question?

Gentlemen,

Is the discussion + - to + -

or + to ++ and - to --?

Two normal speaker cables can be connected either way.

stealth audio explain bi wiring very well:

"The main reason to bi-wire is to eliminate interaction between cables carrying bass and mid/high frequencies;

There are two main types of bi-wiring: true bi-wiring, and internal bi-wiring.

True bi-wiring is running two separate sets of cables, each of them separate in its own jacket. All cables is this case are individually terminated with a spade or a banana plug. Internal bi-wiring is splitting the conductors (wires) inside a common jacket into two electrically isolated bundles and terminating each bundle with its own spade or banana plug at one end of a cable, or at both ends. Since the bundles are electrically isolated, this type of bi-wiring does eliminate the direct electrical (galvanic) interaction between the bundles, but the electro-magnetic interaction still exists (since the bundles are being run in a common jacket, close to each other). True bi-wiring eliminates both direct and electro-magnetic interaction, while internal bi-wiring still allows for electro-magnetic interaction. As we can see, only true bi-wiring allows to take full advantage of the bi-wiring concept. Therefore, in general, true bi-wiring is clearly superior to internal bi-wiring.

Thus, while our Dream speaker cables are internally bi-wirable, and the Cloude Ninety Nine speaker cables are internally bi- and tri-wirable with very little performance loss, true bi-wiring is still superior with these cables. With other STEALTH cables (Hybrid MLT, for example) we only only "true b-wire" - i.e. bi-wiring with two identical sets of cables, each of them separate in its own jacket.

Yes, it’s not as convenient as having the cables in a common jacket, but performance-wise, true bi-wire is better - because the main reason to bi-wire is to eliminate interaction between cables carrying bass and mid/high frequencies; having bi-wire cables in a common jacket - i.e. too close to each other - compromises the performance;

Please keep in mind that while bi-wiring is a good idea sound-wise, using higher performance cables in a single-wire configuration is usually better than using inferior cables in bi-wire.

In a true bi-wire configuration, you have 4 binding posts of each speaker; to each of them goes a separate cable; Therefore, you have 4 separate cables per side; It’s best for the sound if you keep all four of them separate. But if you do not like the way it looks (4 separate cables), they can be spiraled together and appear as a single thick cable which splits at the ends.

If your amplifier doesn’t have four terminals per side (for bi-wire) - we recommend fitting two spade lugs onto a single binding post at the amplifier end. If fitting two spade lugs on a single binding post is not possible - then the option is to order one set of the cables with banana plugs at one end, and the other set with spade lugs (and fit a spade lug and a banana plug on he same binding post). Another option is to order a custom bi-wire set both wires of which are factory terminated into a single spade lug"

For me bi-wiring makes the most sense. My primary amp is a YBA Integre DT, which has outputs the highs, and outputs for the lows. This is feeding Reference 3A MM deCapo monitors that have bi-wiring inputs. This method is pretty much dictated, not a choice. Sounds good to me.

Bi-wiring "works" by paying for two pairs of speaker cables, connecting them to a pair of terminals that send the signals to the crossover network, which then sends the signals from BOTH pair of terminals to the same drivers. 

Biwiring works and you can hear subtle differences in a high resolution room. All my speakers are biwired.

Maybe I need more coffee, but ???

@curiousjim 

you are correct in the positive poles.  Neutral (“ground”) is common.

@tomic601 I don't think he can.

@davetheoilguy 

The main advantage I have found of bi-wiring is the maid occasionally deep cleans the house and somehow manages to unplug very secure connections.

She pulled one of the negative cables to my B&W 800 out and I didn’t notice for a week.  Ran fine.

You should have lost output from a driver if you bi-wired correctly with a different set of cables to separate inputs of  independent drivers.  Are there still jumpers of some sort between the inputs?  

The main advantage I have found of bi-wiring is the maid occasionally deep cleans the house and somehow manages to unplug very secure connections.

She pulled one of the negative cables to my B&W 800 out and I didn’t notice for a week.  Ran fine.

Electronically, it does nothing.  I bi-wired because I have a giant spool of 12g pure silver wire from a military aircraft rebuild (they use silver or silver tinned copper for fire reasons, apparently).  And I enjoyed making it.  My daughter liked braiding it, so we talked as she did that.

 I also may jump to quad monoblocks.

Now that multiple people have told the OP bi-wiring doesn't do anything for their setup, I'll kick in my $.02. With my speakers, I get a subtle but definite improvement. Less so with decent quality jumpers replacing the OEM plates, but still a slight improvement. Try it with your speakers and see if it does anything in your rig. All it costs is a little time. If you have to buy cables to do it, the difference, if any, probably isn't worth that much.

Hello jmeyers!  If you already have two sets of wires going to your speakers, you have an intereting option. It requires some bravery and will surely void your warranty. It's easy if you have a seperate preamp & power amp. So far, I have been shocked by the poor quality of parts used in the internal crossovers in most speakers. Quality parts can easily cost way over $100 per side and most mfgrs don't use them. So you pay for nice boxes and fine drivers and get poor sound. So forget passive crossovers! Take the grilles off your speakers, loosen the screws and remove the woofer. (Dont forget to put them back later on.) What kind of wire did they use? Thick or thin? Check it with a magnet. Is the wire magnetic? If so, get rid of it. You can buy an electronic two way crossover for $100 or less from miniDSP. Most of us have an "old" stereo amp sitting around; probably less powerful than the one you are now using. Does your current speaker cabinet only have one set of terminals on the back? Open them up and add a pair of terminal to the back. Run new, non ferrous, heavy duty wires from the tweeter to those terminals. Discard the internal crossover. Connect the woofer directly to the original terminals (replace them if the magnet sticks to them) with suitable heavy wires. Twelve guge is heavy enough; (copper or silver of course). Many would point out that it's a good idea to put a protective capacitor in the tweeter's path to protect it in case your amp goes haywire; but your old amp works, doesn't it? And you're a careful person, right? You aways shut off the amp before changing wires, right? So, don't worry. Most folks wouldn't know what size or brand to use anyway. (Mundorf, 20 mfd would be about right). But dont worry, send the high's directly to your old amp (the tweeter amp, getting the output from the electronic crossover's high output terminals). Your current amp feeds the woofer directly, getting its signal from the low output of the electronic crossover. Now, the woofer amp is never troubled by bird whistles or picolos. The tweeter amp is nerver called upon to put out cannon shots; drums punished by over zeaous madmen; or the roar of lions, waterfalls; or electronis aliens (only the overtones). It will probably never need to put out more tnan15 watts. Try it! You will never go back. Enjoy the music! 

@tomic601 

Yes. I think I was in my kick drum stage… when I thought that a concussive kick drum was the mark of a good system. But the AMTs had a really smooth and beautiful midrange… which is why I bought them.  

soggy sonic sponge wire i see

@tomic601  , can you expound upon that?

I have tried bi-wire several times over the years on several different speakers and sometimes there was a difference and sometimes there wasn’t. I have always wondered about that cheap piece of steel most speaker companies seem to use.  So a couple of months ago, I bought a pair of good quality jumpers and the difference on my KEF’s was immediate. Could this be the difference I heard when I tried bi-wire, the bypassing of that cheap piece of steal?

live and learn!

Another reason the sonic plus of biwire is frequently missed is the 8’ or worse… soggy sonic sponge wire i see ….. get monoblocks…..  my cables are 30”….

Also for the gauge freaks… check the size of wire from your output devices to the binding posts on your amp…. before y’all go nuts…

Finally get a fantastic set of binding posts w low mass spades or better rings where you can get a gas tight connection… Cardas makes a massive example…totally bad A and sonically EVIDENCED to even the deaf….

@ghdprentice BIG fun speaker those AMT :-)…. oh for our youth back, eh ?

@puptent no the filter in the, speaker is functional 

The debate about the better single cable + jumpers vs the lesser twin cable bi-wire set…plays out often at GREAT non dogmatic music loving Audioquest dealers nationwide…..I’ve spent quality time at 2 with VERY similar systems ( not identical ) and obviously different rooms and have heard both arguments win…. One dealer carries AQ, Kimber and Nordost, the other AQ and Cardas. One great thing about a superb dealer / customer relationship is the loan of both sets…

Even if biwiring has audible benefits, it creates a whole load of unneeded complexity. It also means that the speaker cable budget has to be split across two sets of cables rather than using one better cable for the same budget and more than likely negating any audible benefits from bi-wiring with inferior cable.

Yes but bi amping is not as subtle.

We need to recognize that the concept of bi-wiring came from speaker manufacturers, not cable manufacturers.  Some of the most brilliant, and respected minds used real science to reach their conclusions.  Based on my limited understanding, when a woofer is moving it creates back EMF, thus interfering with the upper frequencies.  I would suspect this phenomenon can be measured, and validated.  The concept of bi-wiring caught fire with the majority of "legit" speaker companies adopting it, and touting its sonic benefits.  This may be the case of "mass duplification" (lots of people being duped) or some of the best of the best talent in the industry saw and heard something real here.

It is not the function of cable companies to debunk manufacturer's marketing materials and methods.  If so, they'd rip them a new one for the crappy cables they use internally and their sonically degrading "high manufacturing/service efficiency" connection/termination methods.  So, offering up a product that embraces a (respected) manufacturer's credibility position is neither blind, nor unethical.  Just good business, based on a solid foundation.

@tomic601 does true bi-wiring bypass the crossover in a speaker?

@panzrwagn --

+1

your speakers need be properly configured with a separate set of mid / high binding posts AND you must use what is called an external biwire speaker cable AND if at all possible physically separate he bass cable from the mid / high cable

@tomic601 , oops! I missed the "AND" part. (My eyes are bad and getting worse every day.) I am shotgun biwired with two separate runs of cable, but they are actually NOT separated AT ALL. (They are running completely right next to each other.)  As a matter of fact, as I was talking to @soix about, since they are long runs of cable and I was trying to keep things sanitary, I have them zip-tied together in places. I don’t if this mitigates the zip-ties at all, but I also have the cables individually wrapped in automotive spiral wrap. But removing the zip-ties and separating the cables 4" wfouldn’t be all that difficult. But I would also say that at the binding posts where they terminate, I don’t think that those posts are even 4" apart.

@megabyte , it just hit me that "WBC" = "Worlds Best Cables." A couple of hours or so ago  I just ordered a set of 6" 8AWG WBC jumpers to experiment with, in addition to the shotgun biwiring I am already doing.

@soix  , just a quick update:  looking at those Audioquest jumpers on Crutchfield they did not appear to me to be terminated with bananas, or actually terminated with anything at all.  So I went to AA's site to look at them, and they had some Q&A about them, and what I got from the Q&A was that they are to be wrapped around the terminal posts of the speakers.  Which is not what I want to do--I definitely want the jumpers to terminate with bananas.  So I started looking on AA to see what else they had in the way of jumpers, and they actually showed quite a few ranging from cheap all the way up to (imo) way  expensive.  They do sell the Kimber 4TCs at a more reasonable price than at MD and  I would have bought the Kimbers from AA but they are out of stock.  Along with about every other set of jumpers I looked at there at AA, including the Audioquest jumpers.

At that point I took a look at the jumpers @yogiboy previously mentioned, and that led me to look at what else was availabe at 'Zon, and I decided on "Worlds Best Cable" (yes . . . I know, I know . . . but I honestly did not pick them because of the brand name) 6" pairs of 8AWG for $50.  I'll update after I receive them and get a little time listening with them installed in addition to the shotgun biwiring with Kimber that I am currently using.

@immatthewj Great.  When was the last time you encountered a legit potential tweak for 30 bucks?  I (and maybe others here) would be interested in your impressions.  Again, my experience was tighter bass and more defined imaging within the soundstage so those might be two things to pay attention to among others.

@soix  , thanks for the input--very much appreciated, and I'll try those affordable jumpers from Crutchfield (the link you provided).

I never understood bi-wiring myself, but since my B&W 805s were set up for it and I believe B&W was recommending it and I could afford it . . . I was like, "why not."  I actually felt I heard a difference, but then again, I am realistic and I have always known I do not have "a golden ear" and so I also knew that I may have been hearing confirmation bias.

However, after all of this discussion and reading (from a few sources at this point) that the stock strips that the manufacturer uses to connect the terminals (if not biwired) are junk . . . one thing that biwiring DEFINITELY did was to eliminate those strips.

I live in the camp that believes that speaker wire makes a difference, so if that is true, it only stands to reason that the connection between the biwireable terminals would make a difference (if not biwiring).

Biwire looks cool. 😎 I don’t know if it helps. But my 805’s are set up for it, so why not. I’m a believer that quality construction and heavy gauge is what is needed in speaker cables. I’m not one who believes in noticeable sonic differences found in super expensive cables, but neither do I believe I’m being served well by coat hangers  :) 

So I spent $175 for a 3’ pair of WBC ultimate 7 AWG. Very well made, lots of good copper, very sturdy bananas. I’m very happy with them.

I’ve used doubled up Audioquest Type 8, and then Audioquest Gibraltar where there is “optimization” for high and low frequencies. 
 

Many people I know who understand far more than I do about electronics and noise (including a physicist who was PM of the first LIGO construction) say that biwiring should not make a difference. But, like so many things in audio, it does, at least to my ears. I have done the experiment enough times that I have convinced myself, and Bill Low certainly agrees.
 

My formal electronics training was taking and auditing a year of electrical engineering for mechanical engineers at UC Berkeley (I was a grad student in Geology helping to build some lab measurement systems), taking a bunch of BS Physics major courses and labs as an undergrad, and have experience helping design and build laboratory equipment used on the JOIDES Resolution scientific drill ship and in other geology and chemistry labs. I’ve also built and modified audio equipment earlier in my life. Oh yeah, Thevanin equivalent, now I remember!

@rbertalotto …”Biwiring is nonsense.”

Just out of curiosity. What bi-wiring configurations have you tried and what were the system components?

I used to have a Cardas bi-wired Golden Cross cables with my ESS AMT 1D speakers with a Threshold 500s amp and Threshold T2 preamp. The Cardas sounded much better because of the warm nature of the cables. I was not making much money and there was no way I could get a non biwired set to test.

That: "NOTE: bi-amping is a different story". VERY different. 

Part of the cost/performance bi-wire "argument" is that the higher frequencies do not require as much gauge as the lower end.  Therefore, put less of the "good stuff" (i.e. better material) on the top end thus extracting the best sonics from those materials, and bulk up (add meat) to the bottom end with less expensive materials to get more gauge.  This optimizes the cable budget using the most cost effective materials where they'll yield the best sonic benefit(s).

How in God's name can a single amplifier put the highs on one wire and the lows on another? And if it could, would not different gauge wire cause all kinds of phase/timing issues......(I know at the frequencies of HiFi audio this really doesn't matter...)

Biwiring is nonsense. It does nothing but might cause a phase/time issue.....BiAMPing is a huge improvement to many speakers with a good crossover BEFORE the amplifiers. That is truly what the four terminals should be referenced for.

i guess i should have made the AND font size 60…. and separate the bass wire 4” from the mid / high….…..

every now and then reading comprehension kicks in and somebody borrows those frequent flyer shotgun biwire Audioquest hyper litz Type 6 cables…. 

Biwiring makes a noticeable difference in my three sets of ATC speakers. I have done the experiment numerous times. I also found that I preferred the sound with the stamped stock jumpers rather than expensive jumpers that I have tried. Go figure!

I add that I have a modicum of electronic savvy!

Anyone with even a modicum of electronic savvy knows that bi-wiring is nothing but hooey.  Others who argue differently are just displaying their ignorance.

I have separate amps some for base some for mid some for high on electronic crossover.tri amp in mono disadvantage is 6 amps for 2 speakers no cross taLk

Some people believe the base gives feedback in to the highs this why some designers bi wire the proper way. One set for base one for highs

@panzrwagn +10

Mike

Simple. It doesn't. I suppose in the instance where someone is using 24 gauge wire it might help, but using one 18 gauge wire would do exactly the same thing. This is a great example of lay intuition. The industry is perfectly willing to support it because they get to sell you another stupidly expensive cable. 

Now, bi amping is another issue. This is where you delete the passive, analog crossover entirely and use an electronic analog or digital crossover and separate amps to drive each driver. This can have huge advantages if done correctly. It requires careful amp selection and crossover programming. 

"Bi-wiring" is not a marketing ploy.  But may not be the best way to get the most bang for the buck for some listeners.  All things being equal, if you break out the total gauge of one cable into 2 cables, you'll be adding manufacturing costs in producing 2 cables, complete with another outer jacket, terminations, and additional labor. 

Part of the cost/performance bi-wire "argument" is that the higher frequencies do not require as much gauge as the lower end.  Therefore, put less of the "good stuff" (i.e. better material) on the top end thus extracting the best sonics from those materials, and bulk up (add meat) to the bottom end with less expensive materials to get more gauge.  This optimizes the cable budget using the most cost effective materials where they'll yield the best sonic benefit(s).

Some are not fans of additional jumpers and connections with a single cable/biwire connections, and prefer the straight line from the amplifier to the speaker input terminals that bi-wiring provides.

We can argue this until we figure out how to plug a digital bitstream directly into our brains.  I think it's a cost/performance conversation with no "winners" or "losers" in sonic performance if it's done "right."