"High end" store snobbery

@gabor2525 - Rob, Amber, Eric & Bobby are all great, sorry you had a bad experience, but if you were to Venture south, my recommendations would be to see Mardi at Olsens Hi Fi in Lynwood, Victor at Gig Harbor Audio, Gig Harbor and Matthew at Hawthorne Audio in Seattle (in that order). There are many, many more that I have visited, but these were my best experiences.

Also here to post in defense of Rob and Reference Media (from whom I have purchased Shunyata gear twice). Class acts and not snobs. Not taking a trade in on a $500 AVR is hardly an indictment.

There is no way Definitive or Seattle Hi-Fi (both of which I’ve also bought from) will take that on trade in either. Sell it yourself if you need the money and become a real cash buyer.

The store in Bellingham, WA the OP refers to is Reference Media owned by Rob Rivinius and his wife.  I’ve purchased several products from Rob over the years and he is a true gentleman and a consummate professional.  He represents several high end lines including Boulder, Acoustic Signature, Koetsu, Egglestonworks, Ortofon, Martin Logan, Rega, Sonus Faber, among many other audiophile quality name brands.  Rob was kind enough with his time and expertise to fly to my new home in Idaho to set up and install $10k worth of tt, tonearm, and cartridge.  No idea who is on Rob’s payroll currently but I’m not convinced by the OP’s story that anyone treated him rudely. More than likely he had an item he wanted to trade in that had no value to a high end store and which can probably be purchased at Best Buy or from any online retailer.  If you are going to walk into a Ferrari dealer with a Pinto to trade in, you are probably in the wrong store.  

Did happen to my Father and I.

we were rained out one day mid week, drove to the Cadillac dealer in our work clothes, walking around looking, sales guy comes out, asks what we drove in, Dad pointed to his GMC Sierra diesel,, and no crapola, within 5 seconds, “I have paperwork, I’ll be at my desk if you need me, no handshake, he just turned and left. 
   He could have bought 4 caddy’s that day if he wanted.

don’t judge a book by its cover!

the following weekend, Dad and Mom bought a nice  5 series BMW, for my Mom. 
drove.to caddy dealer, spoke with the manager, guy received a tongue lashing about,missing the sale and being an arrogant untcay !

book,….cover!

I really cant stand the snobbery. Its uncalled for. I am lucky to have a few nice places near. They are businesses that deal with customers and future customers so be respectful and nice because you never know. Had bad service at a place near me. I left went to another place I had never been. Spoke with the owner for an hour an a half about gear. I was potentially looking to up grade my integrated amp to separates to drive my magenpan 3.7i’s. The guy let me trial a couple of pass labs amps. Who do you think got my business? Those pass labs never went back to the store. Agree it is a tough business but come on money and potential future money is why they are in business. 

Hi-end audio is a rotten business and one most have failed at.  They have to act like snobs because they are charging far more than the performance of their gear really warrants.  This is normal in the industry.

Beyond that, they can't take anything in trade for more than a pittance because they can't turn it around and sell it for much, if anything.  If your old Yamaha whatever were worth so much, why couldn't you just sell it yourself?  They can't either.  It's a poor business model to pay anything for something you can't sell and make a profit on.

Much used HT gear is E-waste today.

The closest “high end” shop to me is 2.5 hours away and 4+ hours to a true high end. As such, many times when traveling to major cities I will look up audio shops to visit.  Sometimes I call in advance and sometimes walk in.  The vast majority of high end shops do have an attitude of snobbery and usually want to see if I am worthy of being in their store by asking what I have. When I tell them Rockport speakers, VTL amp, etc. then the attitude gets a little better.  But they typically only want to spend time with me or let me listen IF I am in the market for something that day.  Having been in audio over 50 years I remember when audio shops wanted people to come in and sit down to listen.  By doing so, people would get the itch to want to consider some type of upgrade.  Obviously there are shops that  don’t have an attitude and welcome people to come in and listen.  An example I experienced was with Sound Environment in Omaha NE. I called, told the sales guy I was from out of state and would just like to drop by.  When I arrived he gave me a tour of the store and then he took me to their state of the art room with Rockport Lyra speakers, D’Agostino amps, DCS digital, etc. We listened for hours.  No I did not buy anything but I did help a close friend buy a $50,000  system from them

I think you have to be a snob to work for a certain shop in Denver.  

find a child from a poor family and give him your receiver ... Do not look for gratitude - do not flatter your pride .... and then - audio luck will smile at you)))

PS Audio only sells manufacturer direct in USA...incredible trade in policy...they often work in conjunction with TMR I believe...the trade in can cover up to about 30% of price of new PS Audio gear you are buying...

I traded in 2 AVRs 20 years old not used in years towards 2 new Monoblock power amps at PSAudio.  They give you up to 30% of the new purchase as trade.  They base the trade in value on the original retail value.  So in my case I got $1800 for the AVRs.

It does not have to be for the same type of equipment.  You could trade in an AVR towards a new DAC or speakers.

I use to live in Chicago but now retired in Tennessee and the closest dealer is 3 hours away.

There's a shop up here in Mass where on Saturday aftrenoons you can bring your LPs to play through their various vintage & high end setups & hang around a bit to talk about the gear: they'll even offer you an espresso or craft beer. That's my kinda spot, lol. Not sure about their trade-in policies but I know they have one. The guys that own the place are about as knowledgeable as anyone I've ever met. It's in a cool brick & beam loft space and is stuffed with incredible gear that they restore & ship all over the world. Guess this is where the industry is headed, or should be anyway. 

You can't confuse a hobby with a sales experience. Clubs and audio societies are all about learning. A retailer especially in audio these days can't be all things to all people. If you had walked in and said I want a new X (amp, speakers, system, etc ) and I have X $ to spend they might have been able to help you (and more willing to spend some time). Trade-ins have NEVER been a big part of an audio shop's business, although some might allow (grudgingly) an upgrade in something they sell a lot of.  An even lightly used big brand AV box loses value about 10  faster than a new car. A good stereo is complicated. A good AV system even more so and many audio guys don't even bother. It's a specialty.

rude is never good...but how many hours have members here spent auditioning gear in stores, knowing they would buy it used on Audiogon...very different then when stores only had to compete with other stores...

Based on 40 years of experience, Hi Fi dealers often tend to be kind of rude, but once you make friends with them, things often change.

I live in Milan, Italy, and I must say that the old Hi Fi dealers in my city (this was in the Eighties and Nineties - they have all closed since), where terribly rude, with very few exceptions.

I remember parking a brand new Porsche in front of a well-known dealer downtown Milan and, when I asked them if I could audtion a specific product, which I knew they had on display, they told mw to come back another day (the store was empty).

They lost a good sale.

years ago, at a local shop by me, had same experience, rude, arrogant people, like pulling up in a pickup at a Caddy dealer, they just don't care.

 Brought my ol trusty Sunfire 300 *at the time"

hooked up to snell, B and W, klipsch, etc, brought a few cds ( i had already been to the shop, and felt the ice on my baBrought a Exit 13 CD with me "ethos music"

played a few songs, asked for some volume , next song was "An Electronic Fugue For The Imminent Demise of Planet Earth" which is a full pure max volume of just noise (do not play loud) search it, and imagine the open jaw when this tune started with a high volume on their speakers.

Back in the day if a salesperson was a jerk I didn't buy from them, that simple. For me the internet replaced Salons years ago.  I have never had a product sound the same in my home as it did in a store.  I was a member here for years and quit.  I re-upped last year.  The people in this forum help is assemble all my system since 2001.  User reviews for me were the way to go, professional reviewers are in it for the money and freebees.

@cleeds

I could not get better rate, because I’ve never had credit card. Even despite my clear and sound mortgage history, the bank doesn’t give me good rate. Many sleeky dealers start to explain about different pricing bs and different "dealer fees" etc...

You must understand me that hitting one dealership like that I dialed Mercedes Benz customer service to file a complaint and the rep herself advised me to call factory direct and shared her personal experience.

A call to factory direct sales got me a free airfare ticket and hotel stay for a week for the starters just to feel the difference instead of hustle here in our beloved USA.

czarivey

Therefore dealers try to void selling vehicles for cash today.

A real dealer, a franchised dealer, is happy to sell for cash. Easy-peasy. It sounds like you’ve been to one of those "Buy Here, Pay Here" places. Those are rip-offs.

If you must finance a car, you're most likely to get a better rate by dealing with the bank directly. That way you avoid the kickbacks you mention.

@cleeds Exactly there are no bank fees that dealers get kick-back from. Therefore dealers try to void selling vehicles for cash today.

czarivey

As I’ve never lived on credit cards, I wanted to purchase it for cash. The dealerships were declining selling it for cash even when I had more than solid sources of income LOL!!! They get more earnings on crazy bank fees they charge so they weren’t interested at all ...

If you're truly paying cash, then there are no bank fees or income check. You pay cash, as with a bank check for the full purchase amount, less trade if any. That's the way I usually buy a car and I've never had a dealer decline.

Good explanation akg_ca. Are you in the hifi business?

Hawthorne Stereo won't want your AVR. They are devoted to 2-channel gear. They also prefer sought after vintage gear over more recent common budget stereo receivers. 

I have owned a few used AVR receivers that I got for a low price but originally sold new for much more. I would only expect to sell an AVR at a fraction of the new cost. Most of them just don't have a good resale value.

It is a shame the Bellingham store was not more considerate of you, Gabe.

Good luck to you!

Maan I finally got myself financially solid at my 50’s (I’m guessin it’s finally time) and decided to get G-wagon. As I’ve never lived on credit cards, I wanted to purchase it for cash. The dealerships were declining selling it for cash even when I had more than solid sources of income LOL!!! They get more earnings on crazy bank fees they charge so they weren’t interested at all.

To make long story short, I traveled to Germany and got what I wanted instead. The factory direct purchases for foreigners in Bremen are so AWSOME with greatest time spent there.and in addition ended up with savings for the total purchase including shipping. After all I decided to stay in Germany for another month and get my teeth DONE and saved another pile of bucks on that + undisputed and undefeated german quality!  YaVoll!

My brother who has a lot deeper pocket then I went to get BMW X6 to the dealership and because he was dressed too casual, dealers noted that it’s probably not the car for him.

Many dealers are same here culturally, not only in high-end audio shops.

I hate audio snobbery...   If I walk into a dealer and I think they are sizing me up or don't think I'm a serious buyer I leave.   Fast.

I value my local dealers, there's only a few left so I try to buy locally.    I was looking at turntables and although I didn't buy a turntable at Natural Sound in Framingham I definitely appreciated the time Mark spent with me.   He demo'd the Rega P3 and it sounded great.   I almost bought it but decided on a Sota

With no Sota dealers near me I did what I rarely do and that's buy online.   That said I thought it was important to visit Natural Sound and buy a cartridge there.    No pressure or snobby attitude there.  

I've made multiple purchases at both Reference Media and Hawthorne stereo, never had any issues. Truly not surprised that a lower end AVR was not considered as trade material. Don't take it personally. Craigslist and Ebay are full of them. 

+1 @celtic66 

You live in a college town.  Easy to sell that piece in that market and move on.  Don’t haul it around.

Portland dealers mentioned, Stereotypes Audio and Echo Audio will both provide a much richer retail experience.  Plus…NO SALES TAX!  Stick it to Darth Insley!

Plus, you can eat and drink at Lucky Labrador.  Winner winner chicken dinner.

@gabor2525 

We have 1 and 1/2 high end stores here. The full high end store is a bit snobby, but has always showed me anything they had. The 1/2 shop sells more HT systems and has mostly high Mid Fi, but are as friendly and proud of everything they sell. It’s funny, because Twenty five years ago I bought a couple of pieces of Audio Research stuff from them.  I guess the HT systems draw more people in.  

Sigh.

Your item  would maybe get a $200 trade in never trad in at a store , actually

craids list would be ideal that .depending how much you have to spend there are dealers that will ship on trial especially for dacs .

Posting under the influence again?

To be honest it has nothing to do with their vintage stuff but your trade in period. I don’t know of any smaller audio shops that primarily deal in hi end 2 channel gear that want an AVR used in their shop. AVR’s don’t sell well on the used market. I can not fault them for being honest with, you’re just being picky that they did not want your $200 used AVR. Let’s face it they are there to make money and used AVR’s don’t do that well. Specially a used $500 new product they would have to buy for a hundred bucks to make an hundred off it. They probably didn’t want to insult you with a used price so they chose not to take it in.

used AVR's probably lose their value faster than any audio component...70's gear seems more popular than ever these days...

High end audio dealers don't deal with trades with old gears that is not high end brand. Yes when you saw those old pioneer on their shelves ? They lied to you. I will feel bad too? Just move on. When you are ready to buy bring your cash or your  credit card see what happen ? I bet the result will be different.

If you will be in the Tacoma area I will put in a word for Gig Harbor Audio. I have had very good experiences with them - it's been a nice relaxed atmosphere. You can check their website to see what brands they carry.

@gabor2525 did you buy the gear from them that you were trying to trade in?

While the owner of a B&M audio retailer hopefully shares a passion for home audio, they are still trying to make profit from what is a very difficult business model under the best of conditions.  They are competing against a huge increase in direct-sales manufacturers and on-line retailers covering a vast array of different audio products, an explosion of on-line product reviews (from both professional reviewers and owners of the product) that allow buyers to gain in-depth information on just about any product including readily available pricing information, and easily accessible on-line resources and expertise that may very well exceed the expertise of their own sales staff.  

While facing the above, the B&M audio store owner has to somehow cover their costs, including:

• maintaining inventory 
• paying a sales force
• rental of their store space
• customer satisfaction issues and facilitating repairs
• insurance and other business costs

To your observation of,

about 30 items-old Pioneer, Yamaha amps and even an equalizer from the 1970s

Why would a business that is trying to make a profit want to add to that pile of 30 pieces of used equipment? 

What some of those retailers could do better, is to help their customers without being snarky when it appears some don't have a lot of money to spend.  Maybe refer customers like you to the store's website, which could have instructions on how to sell gear on-line (for those who are new to it), and having a weekly instructional listening session where a group of prospective customers can show up and listen as a group to gear and hear discussions by the store's sales staff, or hosting other customer-friendly programs.  Being snarky to customers and potential/future customers is never a good business plan.  

Its an internet sickness, IMO bash everyone just of 8th sake of it...

My point was they implied " no trade ins on junk"

Meanwhile , they had a corner with 30 old low end items-when I asked them ,what are these? "they were swapped out for new stuff" was the answer.Is that not the same as a trade in?

I liked the people at Definitive. Also, for those who condescend the original poster.....you made his point in print.

Personally I've had better experiences with small home based dealers, Yes not as big of selections but I've been able to find what I'm looking for and no hard sell, in fact they have told me NOT to buy things even though I was ready to buy with cash in-hand. Honestly goes a long way and now I'm a repeat customer.

Don't cry in you beer MOVE ON.

I’m not sure why our hobby seems to attract (in certain locales) the occasional indifferent dealer or the occassional hyper-sensitive customer.

When I was younger, there were a fair number of electronic techs who had slowly evolved into stocking new gear for retail sale. Many of those shops were dusty, cluttered and required from the customer the commitment to endear yourself to the typically crusty WWII vet electronics guru. Those are mostly a distant memory but on occasion, they mentored someone to take over that particular business who were satisfied with the status quo. I remember on one occasion years ago when someone brought in a Japanese table radio for repair and he ripped them a new one and told them to get out of his store and to never come back. I aksed him what they had done to offend him and he went on to tell me the story of how he was a radio guy in the Navy and as a POW in WWII he had endured the Bataan forced march.

He just decided when liberated and back home he would never do anything he didn’t want to do ever again. Oh, and he said he had nothing against the Japanese people, he was just offended at the post WWII electronics they built and the people who bought them. LOL.

In short, if you are going to buy “throw away” gear, buy it from the dealer you want to build a relationship with…those shelves you saw were populated with entry level gear they sold to their customers who upgraded. Thats about the only time you can trade in that stuff is from the person who originally told you how good it was…they have to take it in on trade (if they take trades) or risk being viewed as disingenuous.

I know how you feel. There's one 'high end' store in my city and a scattering of a few more 50-100 miles away. The one in my city has always been a cold place to visit---dark rooms, dusty most of the time and snobby (why, I don't know). I have visited them on several occasions hoping for a different experience and giving them the benefit of the doubt. But I always leave disappointed. So, I drove to the other places (one was about 55 miles and the other about 98 miles away) and couldn't have been happier with my experience. I dropped some good money and helped support some good stores. If only the one in my town would do the same.

I will assume to that dealer, you were a tire kicker.  That is why we have the Listening Room in northern New Jersey.  You get to hear reference components, learn about what makes something sound the way it does, bring your own gear to hear how they compare, and enjoy spending time listening to music as long as you want to. We enjoy meeting new people and showing off!

Happy Listening.  

From the store stand point. Yes vintage 2channel audio gear can hold up and be relevant for years. The technology does change, but the basic premise of the equipment does not. AV gear is for the most part out dated and left with limited use after two years. I have a pioneer av paid $1000 for it. It is 7-1 new is now 11-1, does not process 4k or Dolby atmos, only one hdmi out, this is just the short list of what tech has left it a relic. Yes it does still work and we still enjoy it but I have to be very creative and run three individual remotes to get the very limited most out of it. If you went into the store with a vintage 2 channel integrated or separates there would be a better chance.

I assume you are talking about Reference Media in Bellingham. You are 90 miles away from some good stores: Definitive Audio, Seattle Hi-Fi, Audio Connection, Hawthorne Stereo, Olson’s, Tune HiFi and if you travel to Portland: Echo Audio, Pearl Audio/Video, StereoTypes, Audio Specialties, Chelsea Audio/Video, The True Audiophile.

I have changed from buying new to pretty much happy with my system now, and it was built with components I wasn't willing to prioritize at new prices.

The few times I did try trading in, salesmen explained they could take the trade, but as they are in business, they need to take it at an amount they can profit on, since it'll be in stock for some time.

They advised me to sell it myself- I'd be getting more for it than they would pay.

It worked out fine.

@hifihandyman  Just to be clear are you refering  to the store in Billingham?

gabor2525

Thank You for the follow up. Never act in fear about "calling out" an Audio shop.

Now, take a trek into Seattle. Very good Audio shops there.

Happy Listening!

If you live in the northwest, go to definitive in Seattle, very good if not 1 of the best in the nation. If you want to deal with a store with new and used gear, check out echohifi.com in Portland. Have done quite a bit of business with them over 20+ years. 

Something worth $500 retail?  At best, they may offer $200 on a trade.

Hardly worth the effort.  Maybe they didn't want to insult you with their offer?  Their cables probably go for more.

Just give the unit to your niece, nephew, or use it as a shop or garage unit.

We don't have a lot of choice in stores locally here either, so I feel your pain.