I was a victim of the most unpleasant experience just recently.I thought i was buying a preamp, but it proves i have been sending money to a scammer. It turns out the seller had been using a stolen ID and digitally manipulated photos. I managed to get in contact with the fellow whos ID had been stolen, and it proves many more have been scammed like me. I'd like to point out that this is NOT through Audiogon, but another big sight.
Utterly painful when it's borrowed money. This makes me totally rethink any future purchase on the used marked.
I wonder how many of you fellow audio-friends have had this happen to you?
You talk about 1, 2 and 3. 3 can be discussed as they are under attack from scammers. But to say Audiomarkt is same as a none reliable source is kind of weird. What do you base that statement on? I’ve done deals online since i was just over 20 and i’m 47 now, and bankwires have been used years and years. Paypal you mention as something that is great! I can tell you they have certainly not solved issues i have had. I know more people who have reported issues with Paypal so i think you are a bit off here.
Yes, be careful, do your homework. Contrary to what you have read here before, PayPal, in my experience during covid, has been a real disappointment. Pre recorded phone messages, not answering emails, ect. Maybe things are returning to pre-covid, I hope so. But again, be careful
Never “wire” funds, always skeptical of out of country, look at photos closely, (no iPhone screen shots) use PayPal, never take the transaction off line to deal directly. Just my 2 cents.
My audio dealer has a guy. All this guy does is sell used audio equipment (big, medium and small stuff) online via several forums. He knows his way around. He assumes a !0% service fee for his work, and for me it is well worth it. He gets the best deal he can find out there. I don't have to deal with back & forth, packing & shipping, and so on. It is a great service for an audio dealer to provide. They accept my stuff, sell it for me, I get some cash back in the ledger, then I can use it to actually get something I need.
I would like to offer an alternative perspective of this problem set you are discussing.
I am a small boutique designer and manufacture having done limited sales over the years. I retired from the audio community having designed and manufactured many products now considered classics.
Having decided that the dealership network is not a viable way to do business (not the dealers but the process, I once owned an audio Rep company so I have seen both sides, and not chasing sales to make 'the nut' on a monthly basis, my goal has been to revive the fun of audio in my products and to meet new people of character in the audio community as you can see from my website at www. austinaudioworks.com.
The scam issue has been a big concern - I use Paypal and direct payment with great caution. I offer a money-back guarantee which means a returned product is technically no long a new product but is used. This means that it can't in good faith be sold as new and the revenue from it has to be diminished so I take a financial risk with every sale. Over 60 years in audio has taught me that there are a lot of really crappy people out there who engage in all aspects of audio buying, selling, pontificating, influencing, and following.
My solution to this dilemma has been to not selling a product without getting to know the buyer first. Not email, but the old fashion way, one or more phone calls preferably with video. I want to see their eyes and I want them to see mine. I don't need your sale but am seeking your pleasure in your audio experience. If I think you are a flake I will not further engage. Obviously this approach is not scalable, but it is soulful. In the end we both feel good, which is a significant part of the goal.
This has worked quite well for me, if I was selling or buying used gear I would apply such an approach.
Consider that some time invested up front, and the willingness to say 'NO' to a deal are major components of keeping this fun.
I'm always surprised when I hear someone has given their bank or credit card information to a third party. The sending and receiving of funds through an e-transfer is safe and efficient. All that's required is an email address. Mind, when you are sending money, you still have the issue of knowing the seller is reputable, but at least no one is getting access to your accounts or personal information.
I buy used often, cars, HiFi, camera gear bikes and never have been ripped off. I attribute this to buying use locally and testing the gear. If there is a problem within a reasonable time ( it is used after all) I would knock on their door and the issue will be discussed and resolved in person. The two purchased I made on here from local gonners were excellent! Both guys honest and a pleasure to deal with classy guys. Sadly I've seen many items on here I'd purchase except most of the gear has been on the left coast too far, costly and dangerous( shipper damage or missing) to ship and not next door for me to visit if a problem.
Years ago somebody paid me for a couple of guitars selling on Ebay with Postal Service money orders...seemed a little weird as they wanted to overpay me...I held onto the guitars until I was sure the checks cleared which they initially seemed to...a few weeks later they didn't. Never sent the guitars as I kept getting different addresses from the barely intelligible thick Asian accented buyer. Note that if a deal seems shaky, it likely is.
I ran into a scammer this year on usaaudiomart. I'd placed a wanted ad for a particular model of speakers. I got a response from someone offering to sell them. There were a number of red flags. His account was two days old. No feedback. No photos of the speakers. When I questioned the price, he immediately offered to reduce the price by 50%. He referred to the speakers as "it", something no audiophile I know would do. When I again questioned him he then asked how much money I'd be willing to send him. Obviously, I passed. His account was closed a few days after by usaaudiomart. They're not all this obvious so those offers that seem to good to be true usually are.
Odd, all these complaints are tied to the US legislation, "Communications Decency Act" section 230. This particular section relieves the web sites and providers from responsibility for material posted on or through their products. As a result a 2018 study by the GAO found 47% of the items purchased by GAO in the research of eCommerce web site were counterfeit, fake, or look a likes and the products may be dangerous. Bet you can not guess who made it to the top of the eCommerce web site list of bad actors. The actions and policies of some eCommerce web sites is blatantly supporting criminal activity.
I think everyone got scammed this year. I was going to sell an amp on FB marketplace, and next thing you know, someone in Asia taps into my account and starts creating ad campaigns under the FB account which is charging my Paypal, which is directly pulling money out of my bank account! Luckily, I got my money back and shutdown the facebook account.
I've sold lots of stuff on Ebay with no issues, but even there, someone recently tried to pay double for an item I was offering. That scam bets on your greed and involves them sending you a bad check. Buyers and sellers have to be really careful these days.
I just got burned by a seller on a popular audio platform/site.
Used PayPal and hope to get it resolved through them or the CC company. $3k burn and I am looking at filing a criminal complaint in his home state. Yep good luck. Narrowed money cost nothing when paid in full, also affords some protection.
I received an offer for a preamp listing on USAUDIOMART from what I thought was a reputable buyer. The guy was associated with Audio Excellence in Canada, whose YouTube channel I subscribe to. He was using a company email address @audioexcellence.ca I accepted his fair offer and he then asked for all my banking information so he could send the money via EFT. After I sent the info he basically ghosted me and I had to get shirty with him to force a response. His response was basically that I was involved in his holding pattern and he needed to sell something else to fund the sale. Basically BS. Now the dude has all my banking information. It’s about the dumbest thing I’ve done in 20 years of online trading. Scam or not, it’s despicable how people can agree to a transaction, collect your financial information then walk away from the deal without consequence. I’m now in dialogue with my bank over the security of my account. It’s a 25 year account which I use with various auto bill payments etc. What a plonker I am.
I'm retired law enforcement and have some experience with scams. Many are the result of a little laziness and naive thinking on the part of the victims. We all hate to go through life being cynical and un-trusting but it may be necessary in today's world of high tech and a disregard for others.
We've all been scammed in big or small ways. It's the world's fastest growing industry. It cannot be stopped.
What is needed is a far more robust response to those who misuse the internet and other digital systems. New bootcamp prisons must be established that are not pleasant places. They can be run at minimal cost because they are containment systems and no more. Significant sentences must be imposed - one year for a first offence, then five and so on.
If you don't agree with this, then accept you're going to be scammed and stop complaining.
@skyscraper, try The Music Room’s services. They will buy, trade, or consign. Just go to their website and check it out. Sometimes it’s not worth the hassles to sell online... so much BS to deal with. Fortunately, I’ve had great luck on both Agon and USAM. I’ve used EBay a ton over the years too and only a couple of times had issues. I’ve had more issues shipping, than I have scams or otherwise. If you pay attention, the scammers usually convey themselves. As mentioned above, sometimes we miss or ignore the “signs”. Going with the gut is sometimes the best policy. If it feels “off” it probably is.
I was scammed a week ago by some POS on Audiomart for $300…I had posted a want ad for a PS Audio UPC-200 and this $h*thead responded with pics of the gear and he gave the right answers to a coupe of my questions. In hindsight there were red flags but I was so busy at the time that I overlooked them. To add to my stupidity I sent the funds via PayPal F&F…yeah, I deserve it.
I purchase on ebay, quite often. I have had only one bad purchase. He claimed to be a record executive. Arrived in a cardboard bag, leaking little white nerds. It was pretty smashed up, missing the volume knob. It worked, asked for a 200 price adjustment. He went off via ebay emails. Uploaded a lot of pictures to ebay with an explanation. They refunded all of the funds and sent me a shipping label. put the whole mess including his cardboard bag in another box after wrapping the original in lots of bubble wrap. took it to the Post Office to mail it. The mail person laughed and told me there was only $1.65 in postage on the prepaid label. I asked what to do about the lack of postage, he laughed again and said the person receiving the box was going to get a large bill. I have never sold on ebay.
I recently used the new Escrow.com option here on Audiogon for about a half dozen recent sales. A little bit slower overall, but the protection provided for both seller and buyer is excellent, IMHO.
Here is what I do: 1. I never sell on eBay. No seller protection. I don’t care what they say. They don’t protect sellers. 2. I only buy low dollar items on eBay. 3. Major used purchases go to Agon and us audio mart. 4. In EVERY purchase I use PayPal. Mostly so the seller doesn’t get my credit card number. I know they offer some buyer protection. That is nice. But I don’t rely on them for that. Though I would call that marker in if I had to. 5. Where the real protection is, is that I, without exception, buy with a credit card with excellent charge dispute customer service. For lower perceived risk situations I use my bank’s credit card. For situations where I feel I need maximum protection I use American Express. In my experience, their charge dispute customer service is second to none. The best. Even if you were to somehow agree to use PayPal f/f it is worth it to either volunteer the 3% PayPal fee to use your credit card OR pay with PayPal f/f and use your credit card and incur the PayPal fees on your end. Very small money for lots of protection of your money, your time (which is money) and hassle. Never waiver from these recommendations above and always check feedback.
What’s the safest way to sell a piece of equipment without getting caught up in any scams like described above?
I’ve a Marantz SA8005 CD/SACD player I need to move on and have never sold a piece of audio equipment. I live out in the country where there is unlikely to be a local market. I’m not looking to get rich from selling it, but it’s a little too valuable to simply give away like I did with all my old vintage stereo equipment, after purchasing a new system a couple years ago.
I don’t want to get caught up in any nonsense when trying to sell it, so I’ve avoided doing so. So it’s sits on a shelf in a store room unused, when someone could enjoy using it. What would your advice be to avoid fraud and scam from the seller's side of the equation?
There gone....shutdown. This was probably 3-4 years ago.
It was Soundstage Direct. Sold a lot of gear,carts, and great promotions on vinyl. They were great for a long time. At one time they were one of the biggest Audio/vinyl retailers online. They took orders for months and kept telling customers everything was backordered and production was slow. People believed them because of their outstanding track record. I'll never forget the day I realized I got ripped off. I was starting to get a little nervous....it had been a couple months since I ordered a VPI Prime/Ortofon Cadenza Bronze. One day I was reading a thread on here when someone mentioned their store was empty/they had moved out. It then quickly unraveled. A lot of us on Audiogon got fleeced. The owner to my knowledge never stood accountable.
Someone mentioned buying only from reputable dealers like Upscale or Safe and Sound.....both of which are outstanding audio stores.
How about Soundstage Direct??? They "were" also thought to be an honest retailer. Right up to the point they knowingly took paid orders and never delivered. I lost over 5K on a VPI table that I never received.
Seth at Soundstage should have been prosecuted. There were dozens of people that were stolen from along with me. Yet anytime this is mentioned in one of these threads....its deleted.
My point is...there is always risk when buying online.
I've always wondered how so many people can send a private person in a distant land (meaning too far away or impractical to drive to for whatever reason), and hope they receive the item they thought they were buying.
Depending upon your budget for this compulsion, the cost of used equipment ranges from a few hundred to thousands and/or many, many thousands.
Even if the seller is legit and its not defective and/or misrepresented, I don't trust UPS, FedEx or the USPS to appropriately handle sensitive electronics...that's why I only buy locally ... which makes it very difficult to find something specific ... even in S California ... and especially so at this point in time when everybody has money to spend thanks to ..... never mind!
I use PayPal and almost never buy used....except maybe a tape deck of course, as they are no longer made. Also, nothing wrong with buying new or used on credit, or so called borrowed money. I only do this when I get zero percent financing...you can’t really lose doing it this way, unless of course you default on the payments.
I'm here in Canada, and yesterday I out an ad on Kijiji to sell a car. Within 15 minutes I received a text enquiry. Seemed legit at first but they very quickly wanted to pay me $35,000 by PayPay and would arrange to pick up the vehicle after I had received the payment. So I'm thinking this has got to be a scam. Check the phone number attached to the text and see the County code is Chad. They asked for my PayPal account and my email address. I told them my account is Gofuckyourself. Still tyring to figure out how the scam was supposed to unfold???
Not a huge deal but I bought some speaker wire in a face-to-face transaction with someone I found advertising on this site. I could see they had been reterminated and the seller said it was done "at the factory". After the sale, I called "the factory" who told me they had not done the work. I left negative feedback for Mr. ScamA** which was removed. I inquired why and was told "You had a chance to examine the merch first so it's your fault". Perfect logic.
I got scammed last year for almost $300.00. I ordered some DeWalt tools at a discount. 2 weeks later, UPS dropped off an envelope with smiley stickers. Did some research and found the site was one of many that were scam sites. Got my money credited back from BOA. BOA took the loss. The site is still operating, despite my formal complaint to the FTC.
No issues for me, for sales and purchases through Audiogon. I have also used Canuck Audio Mart for a speaker purchase, and no issues there either.
I strongly prefer Audiogon when buying, and from someone with excellent feedback and transaction count.
Like others mentioned, PayPal is the only method of payment that I will use. Never had any issues with them, and they were helpful when I reached out to them one time regarding the speaker purchase through CAM.
@rird, would you mind sharing which site this happened on? Are we allowed to share this info on Audiogon forums?
I don't use paypal for larger amounts. Also like to add, paypal has not proven to much help in the past. Yes, i did a bank wire. First time ever this has happened to me through 20 years of deals in most of EU, Asia and USA. Mainly wanted to check if anyone else had same experience. Personally i have had a few hobbies so there's been alot of money going. Yes, most funded through loans.
Nothing new, scammers are everywhere. Do your due diligence and you’ll be fine. Always fund the transaction through a credit card that offers maximum fraud protection and top notch customer service.
PayPal is a joke when it comes to customer service, you just don’t know which way they are going to swing; very unpredictable.
Sounds like you sent him money more than one time. It also sounds like cash or some other type of payment was used other than the normal channels. I accept checks, then I wait.. PayPal and other protection is fine. Outside of cash exchanges in a police parking lot or a check that I can check out. I ONLY pay with protection..
I feel for you though..
If I carry enough money I take the wife along, she has a carry permit.. That's right grannies packin' LOL
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