I’m not sure about the gain control in Benchmark AHB2. But for Parasound A21+, one could adjust its unit gain control down (usually below 12 AM) to better match / leave room for the volume control on Topping Pre90. It is better to have larger tap upstream on the signal path.
Fantasy or reality? Inexpensive solid state preamps that get you 80% there?
Recently, I posted asking about solid state preamps in the $4k region. I got some really good suggestions. Much appreciated. I have that list saved in a folder and will consult it.
I'm still a bit shy about spending $4k. So, lately, I've found myself reading about Schiit Saga and Freya S preamps. Why? Well, the idea of a non-tube preamp still appeals to me but these are much, much less expensive.
I'm wondering if anyone has done some comparing of Schiit's Saga and Freya solid state preamps? Have you tried either of these preamps and come to some conclusions about their sonic worth compared to other more expensive solid state preamps? Were they worth it? Were they just a waste of time for you?
In brief:
Schiit Saga S vs. Freya S?
Schiit Saga or Freya vs. more costly solid state preamps?
The ultimate reason for asking is that this is a hobby where it's easy to plunk down small amounts of money (relatively) thinking that one can get 80% of what they want only to find that there's really no free lunch. If that's the case, I'll just keep saving for something better (Pass, Ayre, etc.). If not, I might just try a Saga or Freya (or something else — Parasound used? Etc.)
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@hilde45 The pre90 may get you happiness with the right amp. The Stereophile reviewer uses it with 2 Benchmark AHB2 and KEF Blade 2 Meta. As I said before the AHB2 is an amp that works with the pre90. Put a CODA #8 on it and it is a disaster. A lot of posts on ASR about the volume issue. I would go with the Schitt Freya+ at the $1K level. It is a robust unit that worked with everything I connected to it. It is not as clean sounding as the pre90 or LA4, but that is likely by design and preferred by more ears. BTW - In my future Livingroom system, I will use a $50 Schitt SYS volume control with 2 analog RCA inputs. That goes into the RCA input of my CODA #16 amp. The XLR input of the CODA #16 will be connected to a DAC that is a lot more than $50. The SYS sounds really good for my usage with a tuner (a very high level one). There is a XLR - RCA toggle switch on the front of the CODA #16. I am doing it this way because I am saving a lot of money on a another LA4 preamp, that is until I think I need another LA4.
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Hey there, Life is too short to worry about tube life, especially pre tubes. You mentioned that you have two "excellent" tube pre-amps. Why not consider selling the "lesser" of the two and add your $1k to the selling price and begin to look for a SS pre that is "better" than the remaining tube pre? Then repeat the process. You could leap frog yourself to sonic heaven while maintaining the "balance" of SS and tube pre-amps at the ready. Regards, barts |
I'm thinking of doing this very same thing - have a good amp with selectable xlr and rca - then use my dac on xlr (with volume control) and my tuner into rca.
Right now I use the adjustable gain control on my Onkyo and Sansui tuners to adjust volume and should look at a Sys. My amp has adjustable gain. |
@barts That's a very wise suggestion. That would put me around $2k. Not shabby. |
@hilde45 Wrote:
Ok. I get it! If you want new, then it's the Schiit Freya+ preamp $1049.Try, it you'll like it. Also, remember when you buy Schiit audio gear used there is no Warranty from the manufacturer. In my opinion forget about Conrad Johnson, too much gain 20dB. As I understand it, the Freya has a much better volume pot. 😎 Mike |
+1 @barts excellent idea! I would add to that… Sell both preamps you have now, add few bucks and get yourself a Pass XP-12 to match with your XA25 amp and get all the gain, input sensitivity, impedance and other synergy related bull 💩 out of the way. |
@yogiboy Thanks. That may be a viable route after all my searching/thinking. The Emotiva looks interesting, too. |
I’m going to say that getting to 80% is fairly easily done in electronics, especially solid state. I don’t think there are that many secrets in circuits or components, having built five DIY amps and preamps, mostly Pass designs. But I don’t think many folks are here for 80%. Those small improvements that add realism start getting expensive, but are worth it to the right listener. The real issue is whether your personal sound preferences are satisfied. To use your own examples, apparently a lot of folks really like the Freya, some the tubes and some the solid state circuit. That’s preference, and as nearly as I can tell has little to do with price. My own practice is to find makers who share my preferences and try them first. Joining a local audiophile club is a great way of getting exposure to other sound preferences and zeroing in on your favorite. Cheers. |
Exactly. When I was exploring XP10/XP12, and XP20/XP22, I asked Nelson about running my Cary SLP-98 tube preamp or the SLP-05 paired up with one of the .5 or .8 Pass series amps - he shared in reply "we have many customers using your same tube preamp with our amps". So the preference comment is spot on imo, and while experiences seem to vary greatly with us all. @hilde45 If I were in your shoes, I’d pick up a spare Linlai 6SN7 for your custom tube preamp, pair it with your Pass SS or QS tube amps, and call it a day. i.e. Nelson likes tubes too in a preamp, another preference, with his own flat-tube version right here in a DIY preamp kit, supplied by Nelson: Korg Nutube dual triode kit. Well under your 1k state budget, at $299 for the kit. Several have tried it and like it pretty well. I’d put it up against many preamps already mentioned here.
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I recently acquired a throwback from the mid 90’s. A Threshold T3i. It’s got a separate and full sized power supply. Likely Stereophile A back in its day. It’s been checked out by the great Jon Soderberg, in Sacramento. Anyway, I’d put this preamp up against any preamp, ever, except for my Inspire 3.1 tube preamp. It’s got it all. Used price? $1200. I paid that because it’s absolutely mint, and it’s the extremely rare i version with a much larger than normal power supply. Anyone who remembers 90’s audio remembers Threshold. |
@hilde45 got it. |
The VTA SP14 ( http://www.tubes4hifi.com/SP14.htm ) The basic kit is about $1050 and can be purchased fully wired for about $1600. You can add super spec parts like Mumford Ag/Au caps and Kuzmo volume controls, etc as you desire. In base form, it handily beat out my $3000 Classe solid state and every upgrade I have added to it since has made a clearly audible improvement. Very musical, detailed and transparent. A little soft on the very top but still dynamic. Loved and HIGHLY recommended! |
I have a very different set of experiences and have found that if your budget is low then its actually easier to get stellar sonics from tubes than lower prices SS. The Audible Illusions or Musical Paradise 701 gets you much further than SS in their prospective price ranges. SS always seems to impart a grain or glare to transients until you really spend a lot. SS preamps gain structure generally requires a lot of feedback to reduce the loop gain as well vs a low tube count preamp. I have several high end mega buck preamps and have sampled a lot of other lower cost units as well and there clearly is a trend in sub 2k toward tubes to me. |
I was at Jon’s place last night picking up a 50w Class A SS Forte Audio amplifier I had checked and upgraded, fully refreshed. We talked a bit about some of the prior Threshold and Forte Audio preamps. A few of them sitting there. I might pick one up for nostalgia reasons, and growing up with it all around us. Have an eye on a few now. 👍 Doing some SS/Tube A/B comparisons with my custom speakers.
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@pprocter Did you see I’m looking for a solid state preamp? Is the kit you’re recommending both tube and solid state, because it looks like a tube preamp kit. @tony1954 Yes, it’s almost as if I’m a woman talking to men. "Did she say something?" "I didn’t hear it." For example, the continued recommendations for a Benchmark preamp for $2799. Now, I’m totally never going to buy that thing. Out of spite. Or people who keep recommending a tube preamp after I have said multiple times that I have two. |
@decooney, good for you! That’s funny because I’m originally from Sacramento. All the great audio technology came along after I moved away to Seattle. I believe Coda is still nearby as well. I’ve been searching for a Forte 4a or Coda 01p for the longest time. So when coming upon the T3i I couldn’t resist it. Great on you keeping the Forte alive. Enjoy it! |
@hilde45 Wrote:
Just a thought. Maybe the Schiit Freya+ preamp $999 with the LISST (linear, integrated solid-state tube). Now you have an all solid state preamp that can turn back to tubes at any time. With the Freya S that’s not possible.😎 Mike |
@russbutton Great ideas! Thanks. Vintage may be the ticket. I just looked up the Bryston and Hafler and Apt Holman and the reviews are over the moon. What's not clear is what kind of love/repair these might need but thank you for an interesting new angle. |
@hilde45 Any competent tech can service these things. In particular, Bryston has the world's best support for their gear with a 20 year transferable warranty. Mind you, an 80's vintage Bryston will be out of warranty, but they'll be able to service it.
Some years ago I picked up an 18 year old Bryston .5b preamp. I shipped it off to Bryston. They did the repair, threw in a new power cord (it was pig-tailed on), the shipping carton, and return shipped for free. Wow...
There's a Bryston BP6 preamp for sale on US Audiomart, for $850. Can't go wrong and it should still be under warranty.
One more thing. Bryston takes a back seat to nobody. Excellent quality.
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That is kind of the path @coltrane1 and I were going down with picking up an older Threshold or Forte Audio or Pass Labs preamp using Vintage Repair folks and/or businesses we all know like Bryston or Conrad Johnson techs to refresh them. While Schiit and a few others have picked up related customers in this space, some of these older vintage preamps can be fun and sound nice too as an option.
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@hilde45 Bryston's service is top notch. In addition to the Topping Pre90 and the Schiit Freya+, I also have an Apt Holman preamp. I used it for several years. If the Apt Holman had a remote volume control, I would never have "upgraded" to a newer unit (Parasound JC2). The Apt Holman is in reserve. I don't plan on selling it until I have to downsize to a smaller house or apartment. |
I'm borrowing a DIY unit from a friend. He writes, "It's built with old Burson buffer modules, only has about 3db of gain, a Jos Van Eindhoven relay stepped attenuator with unobtainium low noise Vishay resistors and a overkill linear power supply." This will likely give me a sense of what something decent might sound like in my system. That might make going ahead with a Bryston or Apt Holman a good idea. I see a couple on USAM right now for not much money. |
The Luxman C-12 is a great vintage preamp. I bought one brand new in 1977 along with two Luxman B-12 monoblock amps, owned all three pieces for over thirty years. They sounded great on my JBL 4430's. I presently own JBL 4435's in my main system. FWIW: I preferred the Luxman over the Apt Holman preamp in my system at the time. 😎 See below: Mike
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Hypex has a DIY preamp for around $1350 (you can have it assembled for you for $125 more. Fully discrete op amps and regulators. Fine volume control so should work with all amps. This is just now being released so I don't see any reviews yet but there are tutorials online on how to assemble it.....pretty simple. Has headphone out and will have optional modules down the road. VTV will be selling these soon. Could be killer.
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Did some listening with very nice DIY preamp. Tonalities sounded great, less warm but not sterile; music had a presence but not that same kind of intimacy from tubes. A different kind of intimacy -- an immediacy, more like it. Soundstage depth was pretty much gone, and width was ok but not great for some tunes where tube amps pull things nicely apart a bit in the center. This pre is dead quiet, so that's a plus. Every pre will be different, I know. But I have to say that what I'm hearing from this preamp, if it's even a little typical, won't make me want to spend too much on a pre. Now, I'm sure that other SS pre's are different and maybe better, so I'm not closing the door. But so far, the best thing about it compared to tube preamps is not having to turn off the power. |
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@kennyc As I indicated in a number of my responses in this thread, I'm open to new or used. See comments below about some of the better used options people have mentioned. I'm interested to hear your views! |
With few exceptions you get what you pay for in reasonably priced high end audio. The caveat being if the rest of your system can take advantage of it. My most recent preamps include- 1) Vintage early 80’s Pioneer solid state. Used as a backup. Sound is lackluster and dull. Small sound stage, poor dynamics. 2) Rogue Audio RH-5 Linestage / Headphone amp. Tube buffer stage. Sound was spectacularly dynamic and powerful. Sound stage very large in all directions. Tonality was neutral and refinement was good. 3) Rogue Audio RP-7 preamp. Sound was rich and beautiful. Dynamics not as good as the RH-5. Sound stage was large. Sound was a touch too burnished but highly refined and colorful. 4) Cary Audio SLP-98. Sound was slightly rich and neutral. Transparency and tone accuracy / musical recognition was through the roof- goosebumps. Dynamics were very good, refinement good. Soundstage very large. 5) Cary Audio SLP-05. Sound is warm, rich but highly detailed. Amazing high end sound quality- refined and colorful- passes the ears test with flying color. Dynamics very good. Sound stage is enormous in all directions, the sound projects out to the listener. My final preamp.
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Why not just go passive, like the TOTL Luminous Audio unit, near your budget. Do you really need additional gain ? All of the preamps mentioned have a color, which you have with your tube units. If you want clarity, ime, go passive....and even the entry level Luminous is far superior to the SYS, from my actual experience. Douk Audio makes a passive superior to the SYS. I have RGR, AGI, Hegeman, Soundcraftsmen, Hitachi, Hafler, Apt, Superphon preamps, and others, and they all are colored, sacrifice detail and neutrality vs the Luminous. Many have been modified, and still fall short, ime. What do you want ?, is the biggest question. Keep in mind, passive is not for everyone, but if the gain and impedance match, it could be the way....Just my thoughts after 50 years of this BS....lol. My best to all, MrD. |