Experiences With Costly Balanced XLR Interconnects Above $3,000

I am neither an engineer or a cable expert. I, however, am an expert in determining the quality and admissibility of expert opinions in court. See Fed. R. Evid. 702.  Most of the ASR guys do not follow any scientific methodology, have zero experience in cable design or construction, and refuse to test their hypotheses.  If you claim a $50 cable is as good as a $1500 cable, test it:  swap them out and listen. ASR guys will not do that.  Courts would call their approach “junk science.”

Maybe many of us learned folks here chase “better ” cables because our hearing is declining? Maybe we get used to one kind of sonic signature and trade it for another? There are so many other variables too; least of all many folks just plain like to tinker or buy/try something else. How many here are collectors of watches, records, stamps, tools just to name a few? My psychic powers say many. Hope this is beyond clear. 

The wonderful thing about cables is that they’re incredibly easy to buy and sell used.

Yes easy to buy new then easy to sell for a significant loss. I see so many pricey second hand wires on hifi sites these days!  It would seem there is an abundance of bad investments accumulating out there over time.   Wires do tend to be relatively durable compared to electronics over time so there is that.

Well since all the cables sounded the same, that begs the question why the preamp couldn’t discern the differences.

@dave_b 

No, it doesn't and that's not a thing... Let's put it another way? Its good you have the resolution to hear cable differences. Its bad that you actually do.

Next year most audio manufacturers will have a better preamp, better amp, better DAC, and better speakers.

Yes. But as we all know, cables can cost as much or more than a component. One customer of mine had balanced interconnect that cost $1000/foot ten years ago and he had 24 feet.

Wouldn't it be nice to just not to ever have to worry about what the cable is doing in your system; to have it reliably always be completely neutral, without it being an investment?

To understand how balanced lines are supposed to work, look at it this way:

With RCA cables, the sound of the cable is dependent on its construction, which might cost quite a lot.

With balanced line, if the standard is supported, the equipment is doing the heavy lifting rather than the cable. This results in plug and play.

Next year most audio manufacturers will have a better preamp, better amp, better DAC, and better speakers.

bosssound

I enjoyed the "Kento" room at Hifi Buys Atlanta as well.  Your ears do not decieve.

Good to read that you had an excellent experience.

Happy Listening!

ryder

I am looking forward in reading more about Acrolink v. Wireworld XLR cables in your system. Iam also considering Acrolink 8100/9700 PC as well.

Happy Listening!

Well since all the cables sounded the same, that begs the question why the preamp couldn’t discern the differences.  Power supplies sound different, types of connectors sound different…silver vs copper, insulation material, grounding, shielding etc….  But hey, great job making them all sound the same 👍

I knew Robert Fulton back in the late 1970s. He pretty much founded the entire high end audio cable industry. Back then, people thought he was nuts, with his Fulton Gold 8ga speaker cable and his Fulton interconnects. We (my audiophile friends and I) were listening to differences in audio cables way back then.

But I also played in various orchestras and those got recorded. I was able to listen to the direct mic feeds on several occasions, and the thing that really stood out was how amazing they sounded, through cables that were clearly a lot longer and lot older than Fulton’s cables.

The recording stuff was balanced. Fulton’s cables were single-ended.

So from as far back as 1973, I had this lesson that balanced line cables worked and that was why when it came time to design a preamp, I designed what turned out to be the first balanced line tube preamp ever made. The first units were sold in 1989.

Of course we played with a lot of cables back then. Before we had a line stage going that supported the balanced line standard, we built a passive balanced volume control. Running 30 foot cables, the difference in sound between them was nothing short of dramatic. The old mic cables I had on hand sounded broken next to the Kimber and Purist.

Finally we swapped in the line stage. All the cables sounded better. But the funny thing was the old studio cables sounded every bit as good as the others and they all sounded the same.

And that is why we’ve pushed balanced operation ever since.

I don’t like the idea that you can hear differences between cables- because it means that all the cables are wrong. Everyone reading this knows this is so: next year the manufacturer of the ’best’ cable will have a better one and if he doesn’t, someone else will. So that means the cables you have now aren’t right.

Now I’ve often been accused of being nuts but I don’t get why you have to spend thousands of dollars on a cable and then watch it turn into something you can’t really sell- like used underwear. Its a bad investment. I always thought that audiophiles would love the ability to ditch all that if they knew they could get better sound while using a cable they could run for decades.

Turns out some do.

But-

This thread exists...

Hi Mark, thanks for the comprehensive response, appreciated. After reading about your experiences, the DA6300 will likely be my final cable upgrade before I call it a day. Your components and speakers are all top-notch so the system deserves the Acrolink DA6300 Mexcel. I rotate between a Chord QBD76 and Luxman DA-06 DAC on the Luxman L-590AXII integrated. Speakers are Marten Duke 2.

I share the same sentiment regarding the transparency of the company (Acrolink) and the high quality construction of the cables. I currently own the Acrolink 7N-PC9700 and 8N-8100 mains power cables and 8N-A2080III Evo XLR and all these cables are very well made. They are inherently stiff cables and the weight of the A2080 XLR is higher than the Wireworld Silver Eclipse 8 apart from looking more solid.

It’s useful to note that you are an open-minded scientist. I am an engineer and agree that measurements although important aren’t everything. The only issue with me is on my bad habit of overspending on cables.

Here's where I call BS:  If a top line Amp manufacturer (Let's day $50,000 plus) isn't using the snake oil cables why should I?  I  bought the kick ass amp why do I need to upgrade BS external components? Didn't Dan or Mark or Bill include the best cables with this uber expensive demonstration of their best amp?  Of course they did!!

I agree the Acrolink website is difficult to Navigate. But if you have ever booked an air ticket direct with JAL from Japan then you will get an insight into the Japanese website complexities. I work with a $5billion high tech Japanese company that does work on the space station and it is the same thing. It is just a different mindset complex to us normal to them. 
 

Here is a brochure from Esoteric who relabel Acrolink cables which has a nice summary of the higher end Mexcel series cables.  
 

For a supposedly high tech company, Acrolink’s website is absolutely horrible and offers nothing but meandering bloviation regarding Japanese tech leadership and metal purity circa 1999…hilarious!  I read some of the cable construction pages 😳

Hot mess comes to mind …best of luck 🍀 

I am waiting on Jeff Smith of Silversmith Cables for his new XLR cables.

They should be out in a few weeks. I have had great success with his Fidelium speaker cables. Very reasonably priced at about $1200 for an 8’ pair. They absolutely creamed my $6K former cables that are now, relatively, junk.

I mentioned my long standing debate with Ralph about the AES standard saying that if that standard is followed by manufacturers of gear used that expensive XLR cables are not needed. I have followed Ralph’s advise while using his Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamp. I use Mogamis. But am copying Jeff on this thread since he insists that good cables are, in fact, very important.

I do now lean toward buying Jeff’s new XLRs. Like his great Fideliums, his XLRs will also be reasonably priced are around $1K for a metered pair. All Jeff’s cables are fully refundable for 30 days. 

Hi Ryder I am in Australia and access to a large range of second hand cables is limited. The ones I bought were the DA6300II, but I was happy to go with these as the performance jump was in no doubt. I did not “think” I heard a difference - it was night and day transformation. I do not buy HiFi unless there is a significant no brainer improvement.

I assume the DA6300IV will be better again but I would have to buy brand new. I saw there were some DA6300IV ( not many) for sale via HiFi Shark, but I did not want to take the risk of fake cables which has happened to a few of my buddies. 

I am running the DA6300 between an Antipodes K50 and Mola Mola Makua DAC/Preamp. The change to the DA6300 this weekend transformed the sound to a whole new level and I am no longer analyzing the sound, it is so sublime, relaxing and non fatiguing, but still very transparent and detailed.

I have a fully fleshed out sound field, with very solid deep bass, lightning fast dynamics with more space between performers and a very wide and deep soundstage. I am using DA6300II interconnects from the Makua into a Vitus SS101 power amp and synergistic research UEF atmos level 4 speaker cables into Gauder RC7 Mk2 diamond tweeter speakers. 
 

I feel sorry for people who want to attack others here, saying wire is wire. Because that is not true - I am a scientist and know we cannot measure everything, but still do value what we can measure. And in the end it is all about synergy, what is best in one system is not the best in another. What I do like about Acrolink is they are very transparent with what is in their cables, they are beautifully constructed and they give you a lot of measurements which show significant measurable differences. And yes there is a lot of snake oil out there where the secret sauce is hidden. I do trust Acrolink based over many decades of experience and their scientific approach. I would have liked to try the Cardas beyond probably very nice also. 
 

Hope this helps. Trust your ears! 
cheers

mark
 

I just bought the Acrolink DA6300 after comparing with Jorma, Vertere, Argento Flow and MIT. The DA6300 was the quietest and had more depth and separation. Vertere was also very good the others smooth but homogenous sound in my system. The DA6300 was a no brainer beautiful cable very involving and transparent. Tight bass, crisp highs with out being bright, and smooth mid range.

@presmara thanks for the post. Is your Acrolink the latest DA6300IV? I’m seriously considering this but need some time to recuperate from my recent spending. It’s a very costly cable where the price is higher than some of my components, but it’s still slightly cheaper than the WW Platinum Eclipse 8 XLR.

My Cardas Clear Beyond XLR smoked Clarus Crimson XLR in a direct shootout yesterday.

The difference was huge.

I am very happy to find there is a person who is really sensibly correct. The person is "rtorchia". I wish everybody should be like him!

Therefore, unnecessarily-expensive audio components will be perished from the Earth!

The funniest thing is that the “Box” cables like Transparent and MIT are frequently bashed as being snake oil.  Those are precisely the only cables that actually offer a musically significant increase in performance.  Otherwise, I agree with fact that wire is wire.

Have had some great results from AntiCable and some of the higher end Cardas options.  

If you can’t trust your hearing then you are in the wrong hobby. 

Blind testing is a great idea because when one pays a fortune for a cable one expects some marvelous change in sound that doesn't exist. That's psychology, and these cable tweaks are a fetish. When I read some reviewer of a component saying he hears different responses when using different cables I become skeptical because that is pure nonsense. Go to ASR and read Amir's excellent review of some crazy Nordost cable and also the one on a Wireworld USB cable. The Wireworld, despite extravagant manufacturer claims, sounds no different than an Amazon basic USB. I can see where people like certain badly rated speakers or prefer tubes to Class D or whatever because they like the sound they are getting which is certainly different. But this cable business is absolute rubbish, unless you are manufacturing and selling them. Some of these cables look very cool. but I'd rather enjoy the music and leave neurosis behind. 

+1 @tomic601 on Audioquest Pegasus ICs.

I had an experience at HiFi Buys in Atlanta recently that made me curse out aloud.

Brought in my Berkeley Reference 2 DAC to audition just for kicks. (HiFi Buys does not carry the BAD DAC Ref 2.) Connected my BAD DAC to Vandersteen pre-amp feeding Vandersteen top-of-line amps driving Vandersteen Kentos. (Richard Vandersteen was in town showcasing his new pre-amp,) At first, I substituted my Audioquest Earth XLRs from home for Pegasus XLRs that were connecting reference DAC to pre-amp. The Earths are no slouch. Sound was coarse compared to what was emitted by reference DAC just before. Might even say BAD DAC Ref 2 sounded broken in comparison. On whim, asked Ed of HiFi Buys to swap Pegasus ICs back in. Night and day. Now my BAD DAC Ref 2 sounded as sweet, refined, and precise, as the reference DAC, if not more so.

#$%@! Now I have to replace my carefully assembled loom of Earth ICs with Pegasus ICs.

G 

Blind testing is useful for a panel of jurists. It keeps everyone honest. If you only think you hear a difference then you likely don’t. Save your money. On the other hand if you find you can’t live without the new component then you have my sympathies. We’ve all been there.

For me buying cables is not much fun.  The only thing worse is buying insurance.  Cables just aren’t sexy like a good looking amp, or speaker.  And worse of all is the uncertainty that I found the best possible combination/synergy for my system.  Maybe the same goes for amplifiers and speakers but it just seems easier to decide on those components.

+1 czarivy I agree with the comment about conducting a blind comparison with generic cables vs whatever cable you’re thinking of buying and if you can tell the difference make your purchase. Above all else have fun! 👍

The naysayers that come to these forums to pester audio hobbyists have some serious insecurity issues.  And the ASR guy has found a way to make a profit off of those insecurities.  

Think of high school where the idle underachievers would pester the scholastic achievers because they could think of nothing better to do.  It was beneficial to work out and get in shape because the best defense was to avoid engagement.  Mark Twain said, "Never argue with an idiot.  He will drag you down and beat you with experience."

And so it begins again… the blind telling those with sight that they cannot really see. We all have mass confirmation bias.

@rtorchia +1 At last - a sane responder! I have been called deaf but IMO one piece of wire is the same as another. If it has continuity, fine!

Yes there is a lot of snake oil, but I let me ears decide if something is a worthwhile upgrade. If you hear a difference there is a difference and Acrolink is not snake oil, very transparent about the cable construction. Cheers

I think you would be well served by reading Audio Science Review. These cables are pure snake oil and there is no objective  scientific evidence that these exotic luxury cables sound different from a $50 cable. 

I just bought the Acrolink DA6300 after comparing with Jorma, Vertere, Argento Flow and MIT. The DA6300 was the quietest and had more depth and separation. Vertere was also very good the others smooth but homogenous sound in my system. The DA6300 was a no brainer beautiful cable very involving and transparent. Tight bass, crisp highs with out being bright, and smooth mid range. 

Wireworld is all midfi junk and their top stuff is just tinny silver from midfi Neotech supplier in Taiwan.

Try Kubala Sosna Sensation or realization level and you have to match speaker cables as well. If you don’t match speaker and xlr cables with same line and same level you are peeing in the wind.

i have the WW Platinum 8 XLR and love em. there are deals out there. worth it. ...... Lumin T2, Pass XP-12, Pass 250.8, Legacy Sig SE's..................my 2 cents

Regarding Nordost XLR cables: I owned several pair of Frey 2 cables in different lengths, but I was never as happy with them as I was with comparable lengths of Frey 2 RCA cables. Counter-intuitive based upon the way they’re supposed to work, yes, but that was my experience. Once I upgraded to the Tyr 2 XLR cables, I could definitely hear an improvement on par with what I heard with Tyr 2 RCAs. 

The Tyr 2’s don’t come up for sale pre-owned and in good condition often, but they are out there. 

+1 for using the same brand throughout the loom.

I know the 2nd law of thermodynamics but it doesn’t help explain why the Transparent cables and MIT CABLES sound so much better than just plain wire.

@donavabdear

Gotta admit, I had to look up the 2nd law of thermodynamics...

Learned somethin' today...

I might add, that the most musically revealing cable I have heard for the least amount of money is Anticables speaker cables and power cords…mixed results with IC’s!

Used many…only heard really musical differences from Transparent and MIT…diminishing returns past a certain point however.  Up to 12k per meter as I recall :)

I used audio questions lapis power to pre for a number of years. After I went to transparent  reference  there was a slight hardness that disappeared  that I never really knew about til it was gone. I like the newer generations better  in there line reference  xl is as high  up as I have gone. I own the first three generations  of reference  speaker wire there is a small step up in each generation. 

A number of manufacturers offer a 30-day trial period or more, so seek them out and give them a try. The Cable Company will charge you around 10% of the cable cost to try their cables, but will credit the amount if you end up purchasing from them. Also, they tend to push the Synergistic Research line.

I am curious to know why won’t manufacturers follow the AES48 standard. Do you think Audio Research, Mark Levinson, Cary Audio, Krell, and most of BAT all (Balanced Audio technology) don’t follow this standard? For the kind of money these guys charge, I really doubt they will not adhere to the standard. But then how do you find out whether a particular manufacturer adhere to the standard of not?

@pwerahera , @inna got that partially right; you can build a balanced output that does not conform to AES48 easily and it can perform quite well.

To support the standard, there are 3 ways I know of. The first is to use an output transformer and that’s how a great deal of studio equipment does it to this day because transformers do that really well and at the levels required can also have good bandwidth.

The second way, if you are going solid state (or if you don’t mind a hybrid circuit) is to use an IC like this one.

There is a third method that involves the use of a balanced circuit known as a Circlotron.

Each of these techniques have their strengths and weaknesses. Transformers are expensive and you have to pay attention to loading them properly to prevent ringing or bandwidth issues. The IC chip isn’t going to do it if you want to have an all-tube embodiment. The third way is also more expensive and to do it right probably means the manufacturer would have to pay a royalty.

So, since cable manufacturers don’t mind making expensive balanced cables, most of high end audio has chosen to ignore the standard.

With all respect to Ralph, that’s a circular argument and the claim not quite exactly true. The AES48 standard he touts was only adopted in 2019, and balanced audio circuits predate that by many decades. To suggest that only those complying with the standard are capable of such feats as eliminating ground loops is just not accurate.

@cleeds This statement is incorrect. AES48 was updated in 2019 but existed long before that and all it did was codify the existing practice. One of those practices is to ignore ground when an input or output is used (IOW the ground is only for shielding and not to complete the circuit, unlike single-ended connections). That practice goes back to the early 1950s. If you take a look at this Ampex 351 schematic you’ll see that the microphone input uses a transformer and neither side is grounded, nor is there a grounded center tap.

I would be interested to know exactly how my argument you quoted might be considered ’circular’.

In case it wasn’t clear, sure, you can run equipment that is balanced and does not support AES48, and it can sound fine. But you’ll have to audition the interconnect cable to really winnow out the best performance from the equipment. As I pointed out yesterday, you’ll never succeed at that last bit, because the best cable you were able to find will still not be right and I explained why. The equipment will also be susceptible to ground loops (which should never happen with balanced equipment...), and if you’ve wondered why some people say single-ended connections sound as good or better, its because the balanced standard is being ignored.

The balanced line standard, as it existed in 1958, made possible the golden age of stereo, along with the Westerex 3d stereo LP cutter head, and is this (long before AES48 codified it):

1. Pin 1 is ground, pin 2 inverting, pin 3 inverting (in Europe pins 2 and 3 are reversed)

2. Pin 1, ground, carries no signal circuit and is ignored by the signal circuitry. This means that the pin 2 signal is generated with respect to pin 3 and vice versa.

3. For each side of the signal, pin 2 and 3, if there is an impedance to ground, it will be an equal impedance on each side.

4. There is a low impedance aspect; in 1958 the termination standard was 600 Ohms for line level (150 Ohms for microphones).

IMO/IME if you really want cable immunity, your equipment should be able to drive loads as little as 1000 Ohms. This last bit requires a low output impedance from the circuit driving the cable. The chip I linked above has no problem doing this and you’ll notice that balanced line transformers are often designed for low impedance operation. This impedance helps swamp artifacts caused by inductance or capacitance in the cable.

BTW, this standard is used to prevent cables having a ’sound’ so you don’t have to compare cables to get things to work- its meant to allow plug and play. It has nothing whatsoever to do with how that equipment itself actually ’sounds’; your allusion to some of it sounding like ’drek’ is a red herring.

atmasphere

... The goal of the balanced line system is to eliminate sonic artifacts of the cable and eliminate ground loops. To do that, the equipment has to support the balanced line standard, known as AES48 ...

With all respect to Ralph, that’s a circular argument and the claim not quite exactly true. The AES48 standard he touts was only adopted in 2019, and balanced audio circuits predate that by many decades. To suggest that only those complying with the standard are capable of such feats as eliminating ground loops is just not accurate.

if you adhere to the standard, it works.

I have differentially balanced Audio Research gear that works, yet the components are not AES48 compliant. As with many things, there is more than One Way. Similarly, I’ve heard AES48 compliant equipment that sounded like drek. In the end, AES48 is just a standard.

Because there is no need to follow those standards, and having to buy expensive cables is not a problem for most audiophiles. 

@atmasphere Appreciate your response. I am curious to know why won't manufacturers follow the AES48 standard. Do you think Audio Research, Mark Levinson, Cary Audio, Krell, and most of BAT all (Balanced Audio technology) don't follow this standard? For the kind of money these guys charge, I really doubt they will not adhere to the standard. But then how do you find out whether a particular manufacturer adhere to the standard of not?

Can somebody here explain to me why $3,000 XLR connectors supposedly have a better CMRR than say $100 XLR connectors?

@pwerahera They won't. CMRR is a function of the electronics, not the cable.

The goal of the balanced line system is to eliminate sonic artifacts of the cable and eliminate ground loops. To do that, the equipment has to support the balanced line standard, known as AES48.

If this standard is supported, you'll find you no longer care about various cables because they all will sound the same regardless of cost.

But many high end audio balanced line products don't support the standard, so the benefits of going balanced are vastly reduced. Now we're back to having to audition cables!

Auditioning cables is bad because while its good you can hear the differences, its bad because you hear the differences. What that means is no matter what cables you audition and pick the best, next year that manufacturer will have a better one and if he doesn't, someone else will, and around and around we go.

The whole idea behind the balanced line system was to eliminate this problem, and if you adhere to the standard, it works. I run Mogami Neglex in my system; 30 feet per channel and maybe cost $300 for the pair. And no worries.

I need to do a write up on my cable journey this year from Transparent, to Purist, to Kubala, then to Cardas. Technical term warning: I spent a crap-ton of money on cabling in 2023. And I'm actually not quite finished so more pain ahead.

@bugredmachine Scoooorrrreeeee! Please let us know whatcha think.

I tired some others but the Cardas Clear Beyond XLRs on my system are great. Here's a pair very nicely priced.

I just bought those yesterday from Mr. Resnick (WBF). Moving up the Cardas chain now.

OP, I suggest you try every cable above $3k retail. That's the only way to be sure. But since I tried their entire line, I will mention Wywires cables. Yes, every step gave a serious improvement, the biggest one - the last step. But I am talking about RCA cables, with XLR it might be different, much depending on your equipment. Still, you could try Wywires Diamond and send it back for a full refund if it doesn't work out for you. There are many people who like the Diamond and rightly so. It's around $3k. And if you want to go higher sky is the limit. In terms of price. In terms of performance - who knows ? But yes, there are better cables. What is the level of your system ?