The electricity I receive at my humble abode is generated over 100 miles away. . . How on gods green earth can a 6 foot cable running into my amplifier make a difference?
During a two week rafting trip down the Colorado River - through the Grand Canyon - we drank water only from the river - lots of it. No bottled water. The river was hugely contaminated with viruses, bacteria, protozoa, waste products and who knows what else. Thanks to the last 6 inches of the reverse osmosis pump filter, nobody got sick - ever. I did that rafting trip twice.
Just like a household filtration system, the drinking water in the kitchen is filtered at the tap - just before the end user. It’s no different for an audio system.
- - - -
It’s important to understand that digital audio components themselves create noise - which is regurgitated back into the system circuitry. This, in turn, pollutes the other components. An audio system is its own ecosystem. The noise isn’t just coming from the utility company. Much is home-grown.
I use quality power cords in conjunction with quality power conditioners to clean my power. My ears tell me that it’s working quite well.
Firstly, I hope everyone has a prosperous & Happy New Year.
I have few extra Shunyata power cords that I've bought & kept over the years. I did a little experiment on the Luxman D-03X player that I use as a transport; I use an Audio Research DAC 9 with 6H30p DR bottles. I've always had a JPS Kaptovator PC (power cord) connected to my D-03X. I then swapped that PC for a AQ Hurricane and voila, smoother sound! I then tried a Shunyata Python CX PC, and it became better. Okay... In goes an Anaconda Zitron PC, and low and behold, better again. I figured I'd need my head examined if I sought out a Sigma V2 NR or crazier Omega QR PC, which would be in the $5K neighborhood. Nope, not gonna do that....
During a two week rafting trip down the Colorado River - through the Grand Canyon - we drank water only from the river - lots of it. No bottled water. The river was hugely contaminated with viruses, bacteria, protozoa, waste products and who knows what else. Thanks to the last 6 inches of the reverse osmosis pump filter, nobody got sick - ever. I did that rafting trip twice.
Just like a household filtration system, the drinking water in the kitchen is filtered at the tap - just before the end user. It’s no different for an audio system.
- - - -
It’s important to understand that digital audio components themselves create noise - which is regurgitated back into the system circuitry. This, in turn, pollutes the other components. An audio system is its own ecosystem. The noise isn’t just coming from the utility company. Much is home-grown.
I use quality power cords in conjunction with quality power conditioners to clean my power. My ears tell me that it’s working quite well.
+1 good analogy. I think about power cords as conditioners. I found 2 meters sound better than one meter... hence the rule of thumb of always buy 2 meter cords whether you need them or not. Shunyata has a great video by the founder somewhere that shows how the water analogy for power doesn't work.
Hook up your system to at any point in those 100s of miles of transmission, at step up transformers, step down transformers, at 25 yr old 6 GA and 12 GA wiring, and your system will sound different at all the points you choose. One can't argue that.
What matters is how it sounds at the outlet where utilities code tells you it has to perform within tolerances there or it's not right. AFAIK the same code at the outlet doesn't apply to any point along those 100s of miles of transmission. Enough of that red herring argument. It's been shot down so long ago. How it keeps on like a zombie is beyond me.
The same goes for power supplies in amps and sources. Some just make them good enough so as to not burn down your house and some can occupy the whole underside of some gear or require its own chassis. When made like the latter, I can see how different PCs would have little to no effect, but the majority of components aren't made that way.
I've only heard slight differences but enough of one to choose one way over the other. Having heard the better way, how could one settle for less for not much more outlay?
"Hook up your system to at any point in those 100s of miles of transmission, at step up transformers, step down transformers, at 25 yr old 6 GA and 12 GA wiring, and your system will sound different at all the points you choose. One can't argue that."
Thanks for the information but how would my system sound different if it were 10 miles or 90 miles from the point of generation? Do electrons age?
I am glad you hear a difference but I am trying to find out why.
How did you get "aging electrons" from this? It was never stated or implied. What's with the trolling? Is it that the more it makes sense, the more you refuse to entertain the idea?
I'm glad you don't hear a difference but to pollute a thread on a subject that's been discussed to death makes it seem like you're bored. Do a "search discussions" on this subject and you'll be entertained (but apparently not swayed) for hours on end.
Earlier I proposed an experiment to replace a switched mode power supply delivering a nominal 12-Volts DC for a 12-Volt battery in a Faraday cage. The target CD transport is a Sony Univeral disk player with HDMI output.
My Windows laptop has an HDMI connection. Does anybody know how to capture CD playback on this HDMI connection to a digital file on the laptop. If so, this should be able to tell if there is a bit-wise difference between power sources when playing back the same CD. Assuming the same starting position!
If the two match bit-wise, any sound quality difference would surely have to be caused by the injection of electrical noise into other connected components by the switched mode power supply.
Obviously, if I do hear a difference, I have satisfied one person (me) that there is a difference, especially if I hear it consistently in a blind comparison.
But I can also hear the objections. My mains is about 250-Volts RMS, not 110. My grid is not like yours. (Mine is geographically the world's biggest, going from the Northern tip of Queensland south down the Great Dividing range then under the ocean to the hydro-electric generators in Tasmania). There's no big industry near where I live, only an electric light rail several miles away, Even the ultra-low frequency submarine communications base has been dismantled.
If I can't hear a difference, the CD transport will be too cheap, or my ears too old, or the rest of my gear too unresolving.
The experiment that I would most be interested the results of would be running the Romex straight of of the wall and not into a duplex outlet but instead connecting it to the female connector that connects tio a component. This would bypass the power cord (and the outlet) completely. I am sure that this would violate code, but I don’t really see why it would be anymore dangerous except for I guess it might take more time to unplug stuff in the event of an emergency. I am too lazy to try this.
Nonoise--I didn't start the thread and I am certainly not trolling. You stated this::"Hook up your system to at any point in those 100s of miles of transmission, at step up transformers, step down transformers, at 25 yr old 6 GA and 12 GA wiring, and your system will sound different at all the points you choose. One can't argue that". What got me was the "One can't argue that" statement. Well please prove that a sonic difference is evident, since you stated that it could not be argued.
Coralkong--Could you please point me in the direction of where it is easily demonstratable? Would you happen to have a statistically relevant test stating that PC's make a sonic difference? Thanks in advance.
The three huge radio towers have gone, and there are houses there now. I do know a street in Canberra where all the houses have been vacated by order because of high radiation risk. Did not stop us working the other side of the road, in clear sight of numerous defence satellite dishes.
I do have an absolute example where modifying a power cord causes a digital signal to become unintelligible. I have a KEF subwoofer in my motorhome which can be powered by mains, or via a battery and inverter. When switched on, with the standard power cord, the class D amplifier in the KEF generates so much RFI down the power cord, it stops my TV receiving digital signals over-the-air.
Modify the power cord by adding two ferrite chokes and the RFI becomes benign. This is entirely objective, and repeatable. No subjectivity required!
My take: stop worrying about the noise coming in from the mains, start worrying about the noise your components might generate
@luvtubes69@grunge1000could you please list your systems and the power cables you have tried that made no difference on any of your components?
Please…you continue to argue so it’s a good idea to substantiate your statements. Let’s see this info. If you haven’t tried you can have an opinion but it’s baseless.
And if you argue that you would like to understand why power cords make a difference I explained it in my earlier post and so did @richardbrand
Read it. If you don’t understand it is one thing. But if you continue to ignore the information provided to you and you continue to pound this thread with your “I think” theories without any experience, may be it is time to get back to ASR where Amir does all the thinking for you. Easier that way…don’t strain or burden yourselves.
There is a great video by the founder of Sunyata that explains in detail why the water analogy is just wrong. Here are a couple brief comments. When I have time I'll see if I can find the video... it is very enlightening.
For me, the jaw dropping difference with good power cords was enough to convince me they were worth it.
Misconception #1: AC Power is like water coming from a large power tank, flowing through several 10s of feet of power hose into a component. This implies that the component is at the end of this system.
Answer:“Actually, the component sits between two power conductors: the hot and the neutral. AC power oscillates (alternates) back and forth at a 50-60 Hz rate. So power does not pour into the component at all. The component's power supply is within a complex network of wires and connectors. ALL of the wire and connectors can and do affect the performance of the component's power supply.”
Misconception #2: AC power can be contaminated just like water in a hose. This implies that once the water is contaminated at some point up stream, that is must be cleansed before it arrives at the audio component.
Answer:“As stated in #1, the component is not at the end of the power hose. It is between two power hoses and the current is oscillating back and forth. Further, current is not like water at all. Electrons cannot be contaminated. There are two aspects to power transmission: the electromagnetic wave and the current flow. The current itself cannot be contaminated but the electromagnetic wave can be modulated with other frequencies. We usually call these other frequencies noise or Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). Within the various parts of a power circuit there may be EMI in certain parts that is not present in others. Electromagnetic energy can be transformed or redirected to lessen their effects.
"Some power cords use capacitors, inductors, or ferrites in an attempt to control the electromagnetic fields around the audio component. The success of such an approach is completely dependent upon the specific design and the reactance of the power supply of the component to which the power cable is attached.”
Misconception #3: There is up to a hundred feet of wire in the walls, so the last 6 feet of power cord can't possibly make any difference.
Answer:“The power cord is not the last 6 feet, it is the first 6 feet from the perspective of the component. As stated in #1 the local current and electromagnetic effects directly affect the sonic performance of the component.”
@audphile1--Why? What's the point of listing my system and PC's that I have used. What information has been given that statistically proves that PC's have an impact on sound? I can tell you that my Personal Computer PC is special and it makes my computer runs faster than an 10 Ghz AMD processer--Is that proof??
You are all just grasping as straws here. I am glad you hear a difference but I have not and science dictates that I shouldn't. Again, I am not some ASR junkie, but I am a scientist, so I want some scientific rigor to substantiate your claims.
@ghdprentice--Please. Talk about a biased opinion. They have some really neat tech that is applicable to Power Cords but statistical tests that prove that these cables make a sonic difference is lacking. Again, I would love to see a sonic uptick so I can further my journey--The proof is in the pudding so to speak.
Your hypotheses of all the variances in power that a power line goes through in it's 100s of miles journey presupposes variances in its power delivery, cleanliness and stability, so why would it matter by the time you get in at your outlet.
If I'm mistaken about that, let me know.
As for taking it upon myself to go and try it out at some of the many points in that delivery line to prove it is patently laughable, if not a down right silly thing to ask.
It's on you to go out and test your theories if you have any doubts. It's on you to prove members here wrong. There is no onus on anyone here to prove they hear a difference by measuring it as measurements aren't the only way to "hear" the differences.
None other than Stan Warren (formerly of PS Audio) told me back in the late '80s of clean power delivery, its source and how far along the line you are to get decent power at your outlet. It was more than conventional wisdom at the time. It's the way it's understood and is from that old scientific method, observing. This was before the proliferation of EMI from all manner of in home devices and outside forces. Where I live, in the San Fernando Valley, AT&T has been using the power lines as a way of transmitting up to 5Gs of info across the valley. To think that all is hunky-dory and none of that makes it down to your outlet is wishful thinking, at best.
If you think measurements are the end all to be all, then I have a bridge to sell you. Maybe you'd get more agreement over at ASR, where everyone tends to think like you and consensus runs high over there for more of that group feel and reassurance.
Thanks Nonoise. I agree that AC power is dirty. I have invested $100,000+ over the years in cleaning up power in Ultra High Resolution Gamma Spectroscopy. I have seen the results first hand and I have the statistics that can back this up (un-filtered vs filtered spectral data). What I have not found is statistics relating to the use of $2000+ Power Cables, and how they make an observable sonic difference.
@grunge1000In regards to $2000 PCs, I think you'll find most here, me included, in thinking it's overkill. I've only spent as much as $500 for some PCs and found easily discernible differences and at that point, called it a day and just listened from there on out. The old law of diminishing returns held sway over me and I don't regret not looking further into it. But bog stock PCs just don't cut it for me.
@audphile1--Why? What's the point of listing my system and PC's that I have used. What information has been given that statistically proves that PC's have an impact on sound? I can tell you that my Personal Computer PC is special and it makes my computer runs faster than an 10 Ghz AMD processer--Is that proof??
1. I don’t even know if you have a system
2. It’s clear you haven’t tried any power cords other than stock if you have a system at all
3. Science has been wrong on many occasions but that’s not the point
4. How do you measure details, clarity, precision of imaging, soundstage depth, height and width with an oscilloscope…please enlighten me what measurements define these aspects of listening experience? Can human hearing and interpretation of what we hear by our brains when it comes to tone, what we define as perfect sound, be measured by oscilloscope?
Two different power amplifiers with the same measurements will sound different when compared. Same goes for DACs. But when you measure at the output they measure the same.
I already explained the components and cables ecosystem where EMI and RFI impact performance of the components plus each component will pollute the AC line.
I’m not here to prove anything to you. It appears you’re not willing to give this any consideration. So from where I’m standing, this conversation is over. Enjoy what you have. But if and when you eventually crawl from under that rock you may discover you’ve been wrong all along. Take care.
@grunge1000, large scale statistical tests of audio differences are extremely difficult to organise and audio manufacturers are not pharmaceutical companies whose budgets and regulatory environment require them. I'm not sure of you are drawing inferences or conclusions from your statement in regard to the absence of tests, but to the extent you are, the absence of tests is simply a statement of fact. It doesn't prove or imply anything about the sonic effects of power cords.
I have a single Bluetooth speaker running through my phone.
2. It’s clear you haven’t tried any power cords other than stock if you have a system at all
You got me.
3. Science has been wrong on many occasions but that’s not the point
Agree.
4. How do you measure details, clarity, precision of imaging, soundstage depth, height and width with an oscilloscope…please enlighten me what measurements define these aspects of listening experience? Can human hearing and interpretation of what we hear by our brains when it comes to tone, what we define as perfect sound, be measured by oscilloscope?
I absolutely agree.
Two different power amplifiers with the same measurements will sound different when compared. Same goes for DACs. But when you measure at the output they measure the same.
I absolutely agree.
I already explained the components and cables ecosystem where EMI and RFI impact performance of the components plus each component will pollute the AC line.
The premise of my post--How or why does this affect the sonic presentation of the component?
I’m not here to prove anything to you. It appears you’re not willing to give this any consideration. So from where I’m standing, this conversation is over. Enjoy what you have. But if and when you eventually crawl from under that rock you may discover you’ve been wrong all along. Take care.
No source. Picking up local radio stations with those stock power cords? Yeah I wouldn’t upgrade them. In your case it would actually be a downgrade or even a total outage.
Nothing like another cable thread to start off the new year
Most of the doubtful posters likely don’t think there is a difference in one bottle of scotch to the next. There choice for best costs 20 dollars it it is the same as a 20 000 dollar bottle...
I know I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference because I never drink scotch. And because I am too cheap and stubborn to try any scotch, I have already made up my mind there is no difference. Unless you can show me some evidence, a graph which demonstrates the difference. You’re all a bunch of scotch-fools!
This is pretty much how it goes with cable deniers, yes?
@mclinnguyare you telling me Lafroaig 10 doesn’t taste the same as Macallan 18?
It absolutely does! Scotch is scotch. Made from the same grains. Tastes exactly the same.
I demand scientific proof or I call 🐂 💩
Lets ask our friends, the fresh graduates from The International Institute of Scientific Truth & Knowledge, to chime in. Now that they solved the cable mystery this should be a walk in the park …
Since it is New Year’s eve might as well discuss Champagne!
All champagne is the same: the only difference is the price, the colour, and size and shape of the cover. They all function the same: drink it, absorb the alcohol, pee out the rest.
Only minion is the ones that claim a champagne makes a dang bit of difference in my stomach.
Agree 100% filtering pcs (I use Shunyatas) not only get cleaner power to the CD transport but keep the grunge they generate from getting back into the system. Same for PCs to power supplies.
Enough with the cable crap, you want to spend the coin do it…who cares !! I like many engineer my own, and to very high standards for peanuts. I like a fat wallet plain and simple.
Cheers
This is what I know, because I did it in my system, in my house, and heard it with my ears.
I had 2 dedicated lines pulled from a new box, with a separate line at the panel. At the same time I installed 2 high quality audiophile receptacles. After testing and comparing 8 or 9, I settled on Furutech GTX-D(G) and Oyaide R-1 as the ones I liked best.....though the Acme Audio Labs silver plated/cryo/CFC coated are excellent for $75.
Doing both of those things made a big sound difference: quieter noise floor, more top end air, bass was better defined and meatier, trailing notes more noticeable, soundstage was wider if not taller and deeper yet.
Upgrading cables did the same, just more of it in the end. Some did not make any difference, some made a difference that I did not like, and some were noticeable improvements.....but I did learn that cables and gear have a relationship that I can't explain, the same cable that was "flabby" on my tube amps work great on my solid state amp.
Another note, as I've upgraded amps, preamps, speakers, CD transports, etc; the more of the benefit of power and cables are notieceable
In my youth, when I could only afford 20 for a bottle of scotch, I thought they all tasted about the same. Later in life I graduated to single malts 5 to 10 times more costly. Each year, we stopped blind tasting wine and did a whisky tasting. All we had to go on were tasting notes, because even the bottles had been exchanged to remove that clue. Bottom line is that I correctly identified all eight whiskies presented. One was 16-year old Lagavulin with its signature iodine, seaweed and hospital bandage aromas.
We blended the left-overs. Lagavulin dominated the blend ... and it is now my favourite drop. As a treat, my partner bought me a bottle, but sadly it was only 8 years old and a pale shadow of the older stuff.
I believe that, unlike wine and even beer, whisky does not change once it is bottled. I can see no reason why a single malt cannot be improved with a little blending - I am looking at a very rare Tasmanian double malt as I type. Like hifi, a law of diminishing returns comes in until like a painting, the value is in the rarity, not the picture ...
All we had to go on were tasting notes, because even the bottles had been exchanged to remove that clue. Bottom line is that I correctly identified all eight whiskies presented.
Unless you can do that 9 times out of 10, identify the witnesses, and present a graph of the data, the flat-earthers on this thread will claim it is not scientifically rigorous enough test, and therefore you are imagining it. Then they still will state something like "confirmation bias", because it has not been proven that anybody has ears or taste buds more acute than theirs.
Lagavulin with its signature iodine, seaweed and hospital bandage aromas.
If you are trying to get a non-drinker of scotch to try it, you are not doing a very good job.
The guy who organised the whisky tastings was very quietly spoken and must have had pretty good hearing. He was an SAS instructor, and his reputed specialty was to disarm a knife wielding attacker while he was unarmed AND BLINDFOLDED. He used to spend weeks living off the land in the Northern Territory, observing joint US and Australian exercises while remaining unseen.
Another attendee knew a lot about transports - he flew Hercules including the final humanitarian evacuations from Saigon. Ended up as Wing Commodore for the RAAF’s VIP fleet
Lagavulin 16…haven’t had that in a while. Love it. Great in cold weather paired with a nice cigar.
P.S. I don’t want to even read about blending single malts…I skipped that part of the thread…that’s just criminal…
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