I’m a very long term member and look at the forums most every day. I’m personally extremely irritated by dealers injecting sales pitches into the discussions which has never really been a problem before. Dealers are biased as it’s the nature of business and this is fine but I don’t go to audiogon to see shameless promotion. There’s one guy in particular that needs to go away. The fact that you’ll all know who it is says volumes about the amount of posting this guy/dealer does on audiogon. Does anyone feel as I do. Just curious.
We have never complained to moderators or asked to have posts removed.
You guys need to realize there are many actual shills on these sites with direct links to manufacturers or dealers.
You guys also need to realize that dealers base their sales decisions on sometimes what they believe in or on what they think will sell.
We have always chosen products based on two principles sound quality and value.
What you think of as shilling or trolling is trying to draw attention to prouducts that might also be an excellent fit for the OP.
As mentioned before the chance to actually sell these products is low.
What is wrong with suggesting options that the OP wasnt thinking about?
I can assure you our mention would have been brief but then Gr4blu comes in and bam.
The forum is supposed to be an open exchange.
Lets say you were in the market for a new Dac $15k and some dealer suggested dac x and after you researched said hey this dac hits all my buttons and you get to hear it and it sounds better and costs less would you be better off or not? Information and opinions should all be considered valid.
@Bar81, just
because we disagree, does not make me wrong.
I don’t mind Audiotroy’s post and I don’t mind gpgr4blu post - when they post independent
of one another. What I do dislike is the
constant back and forth bitc$ing between the two that disrupts threads.
In addition, we cannot have Agon members act
as moderators because they moderate based on personal bias and not on
established Agon guidelines/policies.
@brf. You are very wrong. If audiotroy would stay out of threads instead of pushing his products in so many threads then there would be no need for gpgr4blu to intervene. You should be thanking gpgr4blu for taking the time to stop the disgusting tactics of audiotroy.
Btw audiotroy is still crying to moderators to delete posts he doesn’t like, which they do so this site is complicit in his shilling unfortunately.
One thing ,unless asked specifically by a potential buyer or forum member dealers interjecting their opinions- bias , should not be allowed. what really angers me is if a dealer don’t like comment ,they cry to moderator .$$ vested interest ? It seems to be many times. i have had one of my comments removed which was accurate and non threatening ,but it is ok where in forum rules dealers are not supposed to interject any bias .double standard, but Still Do, and allowed to is BS. We are supposed to be in a democratic society,not pay for play !! originally these threads were setup with the intent of fellow forum members to share opinions ,and offer help or advise .
If @gpgr4blu and @audiotroy would just refrain from responding to one another, threads of this nature would not be necessary. Their disagreement is not about policy or posting etiquette, it's personal - take it off line
Anyone but me notice that “Report this” link on posts?
Exactly what does that do? Shouldn’t that provide a solution for untoward comments, shilling, blatant pitches?
I seem to recall this site did have a feature that allowed a poster to block a particular members post to any thread they generated. Then the site was re-arranged in ’10 and things haven’t been the same since.
This blocking thingy might still be about in member’s profiles preffs, or somewhere. If not, it should be brought back.
I spent a number of years in the military and as a result in some small part, so people could exercise their constitutional rights.
Conduct however is not a right, it’s a result of motivations and or character. People will always ‘reveal’ themselves and their motives. Just watch. It will be quite obvious what folks are about in due time.
It amuses me current communication trends have migrated towards extreme brevity in social media Texts, etc.. 140 characters. Or less. Friend me, follow me, tweety me. You first, after me.
If this click click attitude is allowed to continue pretty soon we’ll all just grunt or flip signs . or imogees. I’m going with ‘grunt’. When it becomes official of course.
According to some of my teacher friends who have students in 10 – 12 grade levels an overwhelming number of their kids can barely read at the grade level they should then be proficient. Apparently, America is already reading on an elementary school level.
I blame McDonalds. They started this nonsense decades ago putting up all those pictures of food you can order but can’t get. Well, not like what is in the photo.
McDonald’s menu has not changed since Moses was in short pants, but people still get to the register and stare at it trying to make up their minds.
Shees. Place an order totaling $7.35, hand them a $10 bill and two quarters and they give you the “”this is not $7.35!” stare and call for a manager.
Wanna confuse the clerk? Tell them what you want rather than picking a number off the menu. Of course it will cost you more that way as they can’t put all that info together into a meal option, and will instead, order it up ala carte.
Not long ago at a local ice cream shop I heard a person asked for a hot Fudge Sunday with extra hot fudge and the clerk said, “we don’t do that! Our hot fudge only comes in one temperature!”
Attention spans and communication skils are visibly eroding at alarming rates.
A lack of open or appropriate communication skills is why people get divorced or eaten by monsters. Well, that and if they are wearing red shirts in star Trek series. Walking backwards, red shirts, and no one yelling, “look behind you!” or “run!”. Folks are dropping like flies and there is still someone who is gonna slowly start walking backwards in the dark, in the joint where all their buddies have been found dismembered and apparently no longer interested in current fashion trends, Bingo. Another dead guy.
Don’t got time to read lengthy posts in forums?
Just wait, grab the pad when ya visit the throne or while driving to and from work. What?
Everybody does it. That’s why they put air bags in cars!
Life is too complicated and too short to be too serious too often. The actual context of info being transmitted here is often technical or from one context to some other. It may take more than 140 characters to provide it. As well, some folks are not able to satisfactorily in their heads and on the page simply be routinely succinct.
Personally, I’m all about brevity. But that’s just me.
Just a thought. When you can audition full Gryphon reference system in Hanoi but not in New York, something is definitely wrong. And when Flemming, the disigner, hangs out over there while supervising the installation of the mentioned system in some club instead of maybe talking to us from time to time, that's not good either. But what audiophile can afford this stuff over here? Most can't even afford that damn Paradigm that Dave is endlessly talking about. Or..what was it?... oh yes. T+A German integrated. No no no, for less I would buy Gryphon, for more I would buy Ypsilon, the German is obsolete, I guess.
Well, some of us are invading their invasion, so .. I think in this particular thread dealers/manufacturers have more freedom to say whatever they want to say. Given BMW/Mercedes choice I'll take Jaguar any day. Or Aston Martin. And Lexus is an excellent supermarket car, no doubt.
Does this make it better. Why dont you check out brand y they cost $22k less and have magic technology designed to make tight bass in a small room and who knows you might like them and save yourself a lot of money you could invest elsewhere.
Ah there you are Gr4blu, the ever defensive audiophile.
You blow out of proportion the intent of these posts. We mentioned casually in a post where the OP wanted to put a pair of Alexia in a room that was way too small for them, that he should consider listening to a pair of Persona 9H which use active room correction to ensure good bass response and they cost $22k less then a pair of Alexia.
It is up to the OP to determine if that bit of information might encourage the OP to check out a product that he wasn’t considering.
This lead to a huge back and forth confrontation between you and our people. The reality of it is the chance that the OP was even in our territory, was remote at best.
If you can save someone $22, 000.00 dollars and get them a set of speakers that they MAY prefer or like as much that would acoustically work in their room, would be to most people a good thing, but not to you as you cry foul as someone is trolling a Wilson post, what if the OP after reading that post actually went and heard those speakers and found to his surprise that the Personas did sound to his ears as good or better and he managed to save $22,000 do you think he would maybe be happier than if he never read the post?
Most people do not think of Paradigm as they have never until now have built a reference line of loudspeakers, same thing with Legacy they have very few dealers even though their products constantly get high praise in the magazines.
As per the Sasha post we said to someone who was questioning wether or not a set of brand new Sashas was better than a 25 year pair or Proacs to check out all of his options, and so we mentioned a few good ones which we sell and a few which we don’t.
The fact that the OP wasn’t convinced enough to purchase the speakers says volumes about that you don’t read, he had doubts so maybe the Sashas weren’t doing it for him 100% or maybe he was concerned that his electronics or room wouldn’t match. Did you reach out and talk to the man?
You who have never actually worked with me, or been to my store you have no idea, to you everyone and everything is "salesmanship" you complain about excessive talking as a crime. Most people who purchase audio love to talk about gear and technology.
As per my SBS days I was the most sucessful salesman there because I interviewed my clients to determine which products or systems would suit them the best and whenever possible to introduce less expensive or higher value products if those products sounded fantatic for the money.
Some people don’t actually get it, we are bound by territorial restrictions and many people reading these posts we can never sell to.
As I mentioned before these products are just tools if you can find a better one you may consider the wiser move to just move into a new one.
As per hijacking Wilson threads or hijacking any thread most people really don’t care, If you didn’t attack us the post would have been one quick mention why don’t you also consider x y or z but you have to constantly attack and so rebuttal leads to rebuttal.
Moral of the story who really cares? If Wilson is the best or Magico or Paradigm or whatever you buy what you like, and most people buy what they are exposed to.
I am willing to bet there are Mercedes drivers who have switched to BMW and vice versa, if you wispered to a German car guy in the emerging days of Lexus and Infintiy that these new high end Japanese cars are great and they challenge the best German cars, and they cost less, you know what it, caused Mercedes and BMW to revaulate their products as they started to lose market share to these new marquees.
Mostly if disclosed I can navigate around dealer speak some do a rather artful job: JohnnyR and Ralph at Atmosphere come to mind...
but I will say some others are off-putting , without getting into a pissing match I do my best to refute claims and criticism and move on. I also make a mental note to NOT visit that store in my journeys...
because for me it is both about the brand, the people behind the brand, the product and the retailer. Support after the sale is sometimes more important than absolute SQ
I'm not sure this post was about Audiotroy but since he maintains it is about him and mentions me as someone who will "swoop in", I must respond. I have criticized Audiotroy ONLY when he hijacks threads, usually devoted to Wilson speakers, to promote his own products. The OPs in the last 2 threads Audiotroy hijacked were asking other Wilson owners, in the first case, which of 2 Wilson speakers would work in a room of a certain size and in the second instance whether the OP should opt for new Sabrinas vs used Sasha 2s. In both threads, Audiotroy came in with his usual hundreds if not thousands of words to extol his dealership, his experience and his products (in a subsequent post in the last hijacked thread, he mentioned additional products that he did not carry so that it appeared as if he were being generally helpful--rather than just shilling for himself), his experience with Wilson which he says he used to sell and his professional opinion that Legacys, Paradigm Personas and any number of other brands that he sells are better values for the money---but, of course, he avers, Wilsons are good if you like that kind of sound. In addition, he usually comments in his posts about his excellent reputation in the industry and how he, unlike other dealers--most of whom are just out to make a buck--truly cares about his customer's needs and that is why he is hijacking. He's here to help us all. I'm a big boy and can easily handle anyone who comes into a thread about a product to suggest another. We've all known the poster who comes into threads to tell the uninitiated that he has found the "best" of its kind and that the OP would be well advised to have a listen. Sometimes that enthusiasm causes me to look that item up and check it out. However, Audiotroy has invaded numerous threads in which I was a participant and he has invaded them in the fashion stated above. I find these invasive postings extremely distasteful due to their length, promotion of self and denigration of other dealers in the NY metro area--all of whom I (and my audiophile friends) patronize. The types of postings Auditroy makes when he hijacks threads are not consistent with the club-like camaradarie that this site used to engender. In these threads, to assist the OP to place Audiotroy's ostensibly educational hijacking in context-- I choose to provide a bit of personal history which involved my encounters and the encounters of numerous members of my listening group with Dave Lalin who had, years ago, worked at Sound By Singer. To a man, when any of us went there, we would ask Andy Singer to make sure he was not the salesperson any of us would be stuck with as he would keep us there forever, talk our ears off--and then attempt to sell us something we did not need. i also have dealt with Dave at audio shows where the hyperbole goes on to infinity. So---yes I'm for the free flow of information including the occasional dealer or manufacturer posting providing insights into questions about their own products or issues of general interest (thanks always to Atmasphere, Jonathan Carr and others). But if every dealer---or even 10 dealers-- behaved like Dave did, each extolling his brands over the other dealers' brands in a thread where an OP asked nothing about those brands--how much fun would that be?
A while back I posted for help selecting speaker cables and a dealer messaged/emailed me about speaker cables he wanted to sell me. Said they were better than what the other guys were recommending. I certainly did not care for that.
IMO, there is a huge difference between providing advice versus an infomercial for a brand that one "coincidentally happens to carry". I also get annoyed by certain dealers who say a specific piece of gear sounds better than what I currently have (even though they have never heard said piece of equipment).
There was one clown dealer on this forum a year ago who was referred to me by a certain importer and when I contacted him, he gave me 30 minutes of verbal diarrhea about another brand that he had in stock that I had to buy. When I told him I wanted the brand I asked for, he insisted on selling me the other brand, put me on hold and got the importer of the other brand to try to help him sell the amp. Needless to say, I took my business elsewhere. I’m not a big fan of high pressure sales.
For the most part, dealers are a great resource for most of us but when the advice turns into a sales pitch, it can be annoying.
I also agree with swampwalker's comments. I welcome input from dealers when they offer valid advice without promoting specific items. They live this hobby, unlike me who only dabbles. I take a dealer's perspective with a grain of salt as anyone's recommendations. If I think something is a valid option then I do extensive research and arrive at my own conclusion. As long as a dealer identifies himself as such then I have no problem with their input. Just like anything on the web, I don't believe anything until I do my own research.
IMO, the real issue here is dominating the discussion, getting argumentative, or obvious shilling. Industry people who post should identify themselves as such (most do and most of us know who they area), provide their input quickly and succinctly and then step aside. In some cases, they have very detailed technical knowledge and can offer valuable education to many of us who do not have that technical background.
A similar issue is associated with concealing one's identity. We've seen it happen but most times, someone is able to discern that and alert others.
In general, I agree with those who say to ignore the posters who annoy you for any reason, but I agree that it can be difficult some times if they dominate a thread. Perhaps a feature could be added to allow the OP to request that a certain person not be allowed to post to their thread. OTOH, we're all free to ignore anything we want.
Audiogon’s policy as long as I have been around (2008 or so) has always been to let dealers participate freely in the forums and not require any disclosure. So it is what it has always been. The shilling factor has seemed to have gone up over time but who knows for sure. Its just one more murky area among many that high end audio enthusiasts choose to deal with or not.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, its not a water tight chicken.
In discussion threads everyone should be talking to others like any other person would whose experience are akin, greater than or merely dissimilar from what is or has been shared., to or at the OP and or the discussion itself.
if the poster shows no form or fashion by which they could possibly achieve financial gain from their discourse on a topic, , all should be well.
Makers, dealers, distributors and other industry folk here often input vital information. Revelatory and crucial new input with great regularity and a number of these people, unless you’ve been around here for a long time, do not at all indicate they are actual dealers, designers builders, sellers, or merchants.
These vital and often necessary resources say their piece and that’s it. No invites. No PM me notes, no implication or advertising at all occurs. Unless someone in that thread ‘outs’ them as this or that, they leave their thoughts on the same level of contribution as did any non seller, non designer or non manufacturer.
That is as it should be, input or feedback from a purely altruistic tributary. Knowledge that comes from those springs will usually be well received.
I do not believe this is at all about getting input from dealers, designers, makers, distributors, etc., what so ever.
The idea one dealer says this thing is way gooder (yes, I said ‘gooder’) than that other thing, is no different than anyone else presenting his or her at times passionate opinion or EXP, and not withstanding the actual context.
Hiding behind passion is one thing. it is not hiding if as well one’s professional werewith all like therri inventory comes up which coincidentally is their proposed solution for the discussion. It is then free advertising, not passion.
Its like watching the same commercial on TV. It may start out differently now and then, but you know exactly what is coming. It gets old. Fast. Because it never changes.
The dealership which on the other hand says, you should look at xyz when you can as that is likely the best thing. I’m sorry but I don’t carry it. Will hold a lot more water with just about everyone for the possibility of gains then are absent.
If one feels this or that is indeed the better proposal for whomever, merely input that. Nothing more needs be said of your professional affiliation, location or inventory.
For a dealer or anyone else to input what they feel is aimed directly at the OP or topic of a thread is nothing more or less than what anyone else can or will do. We all have preffs, biases, notions others may or may not share. Although as individuals, we are in discussions for reasons apart from obtaining either individual awareness or financial improvement.
Well, I hope so anyhow.
Increasing public awareness is the immediate aim of advertising. Around the Audiogon community it is requested all advertising goes thru appropriate channels and is a fee based affair.
As such, for any member here Audiogon asks each of us for a fee to do that. They should maintain the same posture on advertising in threads.
Any ad for any thing is a notice saying ‘look at me’ and as well, an invitation for someone to visit, contact, or inquire of the advertiser for more info, all of which puts a sale or profit right on the crosshairs as the motive behind the motive.
If the motivation for feedback in threads carries with it any sense, inkling or possible bias, people are often intuitive enough to discern it. If not, overtures to listen to a different option at a particular or even specific retail venue the poster is closely attached, should be sufficient grounds for their input to be removed.
Well I agree that one can just avoid reading posts as desired. I’m hearing that in general most members don’t mind so it’s mostly a personal problem. If it becomes pervasive I think many may change their mind, but then maybe not.
On a supportive note: I have no problem with dealers posting. I think most dealers are enthusiasts like us and the fact they have listened to and have access to a wide range of gear makes a dealer's input *potentially* valuable. I'm a big boy, I take my grain of salt when reading a dealer's post. But I'm still happy to read them and get what I can.
On a bit more negative note, this is the only part of your post that tripped me up a bit:
Ask yourselves are you using power conditioning, power cables, room
tuning, vibration isolation, air treatment/electrical field
conditioning, devices, footers, before you swap components, you might be
surprised to find sometimes adding an accessory or two will make your
system better.
That does, frankly, sound rather pitch-man like. The advice to try such items - one's you just happen to be ready to sell the reader.
Looking at such advice, and some of the cables and "treatments" listed your web site, for me it's a bit like walking into someone's office billing himself as a "doctor" only to find out I'm being pitched homeopathy or healing crystals. But I confess I have less patience for the snake oil aspects of this industry than most others here, it seems.
Yeah, it irritates me too. Some of them are like flies all over the place. They keep begging pretending to offer an expertise. Others are okay, they don’t sound like audiophiles, though, but nor do many participants, dealers or not. Overall, this forum is degenerating.
Audio Archon Mike , this guy is a dealer, He always identify himself a dealer, He does not promote, He will always You are more than welcome to listen to what he carries , very pleasant to talk to...
The model example of appropriate dealer participation on the forums is Johnny Rutan of Audio Connection. He only posts when someone asks for his input or is specifically referred to him, or when questions pop up about brands he carries and knows intimately.
I've yet to see him jump into any thread about gear that he does not carry to tout the brands he does carry. That's the OP's point of contention here.
And FWIW, I've never even spoken with Johnny. Just my 2 cents from observing what goes on here.
The issue shouldn’t be about hijaciking it should be about attacking another member in these posts, by one particular member, which leads to long rebuttals and banter.
Most people who are actually shopping for a product welcome ideas to look at x y or z as they may not be aware of that product.
How are you supposed to learn if all you get is the same rhetoric from the same dealers or friends. Is that advice or is that just echoing the same issue that the OP had started with.
As we are all product owner, my store owns I can guarantee you way more equipment than you guys do, all feel passionately about our products, that is not the point the point should be to engage in a discussion on what may be right for the OP and that may include products not being discussed as perhaps that product MAY be an even better fit for the OP or the new product mentioned might cost less, or whatever.
Take the Sasha post, all we said is to look at all the options and yes some of those options are ours while some are not, the fact is that it is doubtful that the OP is near our shop our would be purchasing anything from us.
Does a pair of Legacy Aeris sound better than a used pair of Sashas and are the same price? That is not our decision it is the OP but perhaps the OP never heard of Legacy and now maybe the OP would. If in that case the OP did prefer the Legacys or any of you did, and then decided to change brands in the pursuit of getting more realistic music would that be a good thing or a bad thing?
All owners of all audio products need to consider that the market is dynamic and there will always be great new products entering the market that may challenge the status quo
In my 30 plus years of doing this professionally all the stores I have worked for have sometimes discovered new brands or moved to new products which are sometimes better than the brand they used to have.
The grownup way of dealing with this is not to cry foul but to go out and see if X Y or Z does indeed sound better than what you own and if it makes sense then to change.
If you love your Wilsons or Magicos or speaker or amp you should not be swayed by my or any other words, they are just that.
If you look at the great Harry Person founder of the Absolute Sound, Harry moved from one reference to another if that new X Y or Z was indeed better, Harry did seem to be brand agnostic.
Again as someone who owned Wilson speakers they are an excellent product, and they produce one flavor of sound, if you love them that is great, our store actually doesn’t care about the brand, we pursue many new brands if that new brand or product sounds better than our older one.
The ideas of our posts was to open certain peoples eyes and ears that there MAY be a product that they weren’t considering that MIGHT have been great for them and if you consider that this is a large country we would usually have nothing to gain, as we are bound by territorial restrictions or there are other dealers in the area.
Please consider this rebuttal when next you talk about trolling and try to engage rather than attack.
If you read many of our posts you will see that we talk about many products that are excellent including ones we don’t sell.
Next time when you are in that position to purchase a new product you might find that if someone comes in and says if you are considering a new digital front end and you were talking DCS or MSB and someone comes in and says why don’t you look at an Aqua, or a Meitner or an Esoteric or a Lampi, and you actually do and find that the new widget you were not thinking about takes your system to a new level of satisfaction then maybe you might feel differently.
I hope that helps clarify our aims and position.
Where is Grp4blu when you need him as I am sure he is going to swoop in for an attack, and my last point, if you would be shocked at how much some of the guys like myself actually know about many of these products and how if you reached out and talked with us you might be surprised to learn of a few tricks which might radically alter your perception of how to setup a great system.
Ask yourselves are you using power conditioning, power cables, room tuning, vibration isolation, air treatment/electrical field conditioning, devices, footers, before you swap components, you might be surprised to find sometimes adding an accessory or two will make your system better.
It doesn't bother me as long as they identify themselves as dealers. I understand they have potential financial gain, that's why I take what they say with a grain of salt. Some audiophiles push what they prefer and in some ways it isn't any different.
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