Lets address the elephant in the room shall we.
The issue shouldn’t be about hijaciking it should be about attacking another member in these posts, by one particular member, which leads to long rebuttals and banter.
Most people who are actually shopping for a product welcome ideas to look at x y or z as they may not be aware of that product.
How are you supposed to learn if all you get is the same rhetoric from the same dealers or friends. Is that advice or is that just echoing the same issue that the OP had started with.
As we are all product owner, my store owns I can guarantee you way more equipment than you guys do, all feel passionately about our products, that is not the point the point should be to engage in a discussion on what may be right for the OP and that may include products not being discussed as perhaps that product MAY be an even better fit for the OP or the new product mentioned might cost less, or whatever.
Take the Sasha post, all we said is to look at all the options and yes some of those options are ours while some are not, the fact is that it is doubtful that the OP is near our shop our would be purchasing anything from us.
Does a pair of Legacy Aeris sound better than a used pair of Sashas and are the same price? That is not our decision it is the OP but perhaps the OP never heard of Legacy and now maybe the OP would. If in that case the OP did prefer the Legacys or any of you did, and then decided to change brands in the pursuit of getting more realistic music would that be a good thing or a bad thing?
All owners of all audio products need to consider that the market is dynamic and there will always be great new products entering the market that may challenge the status quo
In my 30 plus years of doing this professionally all the stores I have worked for have sometimes discovered new brands or moved to new products which are sometimes better than the brand they used to have.
The grownup way of dealing with this is not to cry foul but to go out and see if X Y or Z does indeed sound better than what you own and if it makes sense then to change.
If you love your Wilsons or Magicos or speaker or amp you should not be swayed by my or any other words, they are just that.
If you look at the great Harry Person founder of the Absolute Sound, Harry moved from one reference to another if that new X Y or Z was indeed better, Harry did seem to be brand agnostic.
Again as someone who owned Wilson speakers they are an excellent product, and they produce one flavor of sound, if you love them that is great, our store actually doesn’t care about the brand, we pursue many new brands if that new brand or product sounds better than our older one.
The ideas of our posts was to open certain peoples eyes and ears that there MAY be a product that they weren’t considering that MIGHT have been great for them and if you consider that this is a large country we would usually have nothing to gain, as we are bound by territorial restrictions or there are other dealers in the area.
Please consider this rebuttal when next you talk about trolling and try to engage rather than attack.
If you read many of our posts you will see that we talk about many products that are excellent including ones we don’t sell.
Next time when you are in that position to purchase a new product you might find that if someone comes in and says if you are considering a new digital front end and you were talking DCS or MSB and someone comes in and says why don’t you look at an Aqua, or a Meitner or an Esoteric or a Lampi, and you actually do and find that the new widget you were not thinking about takes your system to a new level of satisfaction then maybe you might feel differently.
I hope that helps clarify our aims and position.
Where is Grp4blu when you need him as I am sure he is going to swoop in for an attack, and my last point, if you would be shocked at how much some of the guys like myself actually know about many of these products and how if you reached out and talked with us you might be surprised to learn of a few tricks which might radically alter your perception of how to setup a great system.
Ask yourselves are you using power conditioning, power cables, room tuning, vibration isolation, air treatment/electrical field conditioning, devices, footers, before you swap components, you might be surprised to find sometimes adding an accessory or two will make your system better.
Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ
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Well said Inna notice if anyone gets so heated in the car arena.
I know a lot of car guys and many own lots of diffent cars sometimes at the same time.
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Does this make it better. Why dont you check out brand y they cost $22k less and have magic technology designed to make tight bass in a small room and who knows you might like them and save yourself a lot of money you could invest elsewhere. |
We have never complained to moderators or asked to have posts removed.
You guys need to realize there are many actual shills on these sites with direct links to manufacturers or dealers.
You guys also need to realize that dealers base their sales decisions on sometimes what they believe in or on what they think will sell.
We have always chosen products based on two principles sound quality and value.
What you think of as shilling or trolling is trying to draw attention to prouducts that might also be an excellent fit for the OP.
As mentioned before the chance to actually sell these products is low.
What is wrong with suggesting options that the OP wasnt thinking about?
I can assure you our mention would have been brief but then Gr4blu comes in and bam.
The forum is supposed to be an open exchange.
Lets say you were in the market for a new Dac $15k and some dealer suggested dac x and after you researched said hey this dac hits all my buttons and you get to hear it and it sounds better and costs less would you be better off or not?
Information and opinions should all be considered valid.
How do you learn unless you are open? |
Bulder the reality we dont hijack anything.
If you notice it is only when a certain member starts attacking us does a post get hijacked.
Why dont you talk to us about any audio related question and see for yourself most people who have actually contacted us will vouch for our knowledge and openesss. We will often if it comes up discuss products that we dont sell and recomend those products as well.
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Gr4blu what would you learn?
You certaintly would not find out about a possible new and better product than what you are allready considering?
The point is what if poster x on a forum was introduced to a product they never had thought of and this product sounded better or saved the OP money you presume the OP is going to be happy or not?
You cry shill and troll the fact that many people feel that your tireless attacks do not serve this forum and are in equil bad taste.
The point really should be is the product a valid recomendation that the OP may like?
Your world is a world were anyone pitching a new idea should be shunned because they dared to do so.
Many people who are actually shopping for something are oftentimes happy to discover a brand or a propuct they didnt know about.
If you didnt attack us then the response would be brief. |
Yes Gpgr4blu, I did read it, your feeling is if someone chimes in on that topic and only that topic/product is cool and all other response is in your words trolling.
You obviously didn’t read the Wilson Sasha post either, here is the direct quote from the OP
" Looking for any advice on whether this seems like a good deal, whether the Sasha 2s would be a big step up from the Proacs."
Again if you actually read the man has concerns, if a 25+ pair of Proac has even in this man’s mind a possiblilty to stand up to a pair of Brand new state of the art Wilson Sashas, then obvioulsy the man wasn’t 100% convinced.
If you also notice he never said" I am going to buy this or that, he was wondering if the used pair of Sashas was a good deal, and could easily better his Proacs.
The fact that most of us would say is almost any good $10k+ pair of speakers should easily beat the stuffings out of an older set of Proacs.
Dave owner,
Audio Doctor NJ
Nonise I couldn’t agree with you more, in Grgr4blu’s mind we are the evil misguided troll dealer, vs his rightous good dealer friends whom all do the right things and he is the hero of our story the rightous do gooder who calls out and vanquishes evil.
I would be so into haveing people who read these posts actually come over and hear our reference system and see for themselves and then go listen to his system and see which is better, I bet that would make great TV.
Audio Wars!
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Svery the entire audioshark forum is all about products he sells in almost every forum post, you got to be kidding, the reason he started Audioshark, look at his products and look at the forum posts you will see plenty of mentions you will also see plenty of news posts conveniently about his products.
As per Gpgr4blu, you take everything I have ever said way out of proportion. As per the reputation of many New York dealers read some of the many posts written about such subjects on these forums, and I have witnessed many of these same experiences that customers have.
The fact that "you are freinds with many of these dealers" and are in no way our friend, makes you incredibily biased and therefore hardly an honest mirror to our bad in your mind behavior.
Many of today's best loudspeakers Magico, Rockport, Focal, B&W, all use Beryillium drivers or diamond coated Beryillium drivers, so your logic is hardly unbiased.
I don't know about you but Magico, Rockport, Focal, and B&W are all very highly rated companies whose products are all considered state of the art what you like has to do with your tastes as well as your bias.
I think if you ask most of the people here they would agree that with any of those forementoned products setup is crucial.
Your lack of objectivity and negativity driected to us is unconcionable and a complete turn off to many of the people that find our posts to be helpful.
And again, what is your professional background again? |
Grgr4blu,
Gee what a load of hurt hogwash. If you never bought from me or taken my suggestions, YOU NEVER WORKED WITH ME!
As per trying to sell you Ushers or Personas, unless it was in my shop which you haven't been to, you are MISTAKING A SALES PRESENTATION AT AN AUDIO SHOW, by the way, a sales persentation at an Audio Show is my job by the way, with a personal demo and consult.
As per trying to "sell" you something you obviously knoq more than me so there is no way I could sell you something as per your advanced experiences in the industry, I started at age 5 with my first reel to reel, and helped my father build and modify Dynaco gear in my early teens, lest you forget our previous discussions so although you may be 10 years older you may actually have less experience than I do.
As per talking your ear off, I generally get to know my clients and their needs and what they do and do not like as a way of guiding them to find what they like.
As per you and your "honesty" vs mine, if you had the timerity and the balls to say that you don't like my method, to my face you can as you do here ask Andy to get you another salesman, but you can hide behind your Audiogon handle.
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Jb why don’t you take your own advice. If you can’t determine a sales pitch from a conversation maybe you should.
The only reason I mentioned that was due to Grgr4blu starting it.
My posts are hardly off topic, if it wasn’t a certain person adding fuel to the fire there would be no need to rebutt anyone. If you haven’t guessed you are following and exhibiting the same bad behavior you accuse us of.
There is a difference between a sales pitch and a presentation or a discussion.
If you are discussing cars and you are a Ford guy try illustrating a story or creating an ancedotal reference which doesn’t mention the car or the make or the model is nearly impossible especially if you are trying to make a point in a conversation with a Chevy guy.
Here is a nice ancedolatal example, as mentioned before.
You had a guy question if a 25+ years old speaker brand X was better than brand Y and for the same money as brand Y you said why don’t you try brand Z that is also the same price and brand Z is also a highly rated product that you can have brand new and you might like it more than brand Y. Wow that is both stupid and confusing.
You like Grgr4blu think everything is a sales pitch guess what many times it isn’t and as mentioned before WE HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN MOST OF THE TIME!
We can not sell Brand X into dealer Z’s territory so if we are offering advice for some people to look at certain products because they might actually like them better or be saving money.
This is how we all learn about new product and new ideas, I have learned about new brands and products because sometimes a poster mentioned something I never heard about.
Did I immediaetly cry foul because someone mentioned some other product that was not mentioned in the original post. Grow up.
This dealer bashing is just wrong, many dealers here are actually offering real advice and many have nothing to gain either.
If I could tell you how many pictures of systems I have seen here that have huge setup errors it would boggle your mind.
That is what you learn in 30+ years of doing this for a profession.
I have turned on a few speaker designers and manufacturers to a few of the setup products we routinely use and they were shocked at just how much better we got the room sounding. They were open minded enough to let me show them and demonstrate them.
It is how open we all are to learning, and by the way JB all of life is selling from your first date to your job, to how you ingriatiate yourself with others.
It is doubtful you would ever or could ever benefit from someone like me who plays with a lot of different products and tests out lots of intersting tweeks some of which make a huge difference because you in your mind would be this guy is trying to get me.
Quite frankly I don’t want to be bothered you are not worth me selling you anything.
Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ
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As per Bo not even close. I have read his posts, I do talk about my products in a positive mannor, I also do mention they are a flavor and are very good products. All of my brands are major ones that have major industry accolades, wether or not you find brand x amp to be better than brand y is your taste and setup and matching components.
When many major reviewers all say the same thing and you are constantly bashing that brand guess what you sound like Bo which is not credibile.
I have said that Wilson, Magico, Rockports Focals etc are all great product that have their sound. Personally I find Magicos boring, and Rockports to be more to my liking, but that is me. I have heard my share of bad Wilson setups as well as a few good ones, I have also heard YG sound mediocre as well as sounding great.
If you read my posts I have stated that in certain ways some of my products are really good and may be better in certain areas, and may challange brand y which I am sure why some people are hurt they want to believe that their sacred product is better than all others.
I have said time and time again, these products are tools and so can be moved in and out no big deal. If I find a better tool I move to that one it seems that certain people are threatend by a conversation.
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Thank you Ethiessen you are correct sir!
Oh and for hijacking a thread Grgr4blu is doing that very thing on another post on Paradigms by chiming in to attack me and not adding anything,
It works both ways. |
sbai I am not reffering to you or suggesting anythiing negative about you at all.
We all need to calm down and see the merit for what it is and if you think someone is a shill don’t read their posts. simple or even better seek out your local dealer and see for yourself you might find a new addition that you really love.
Attacking and forcing a rebuttal is not appropriate behavior either and Grgr4blu should be reprimanded for his inappropriate behavior. |
Gpgr4blu,
You may have issues, with me, however, many people are having them with you as well.
As per knowledge you take offense that someone who is younger than you might know more, which might have been your percevied slight and what you felt was wrong with working with me in the first place when you encountered me at SBS.
I can assure you when I was in my 20's I most probably had a better system than you in your 40s, not trying to be bragadocious, just trying to make a point. about your comments about not liking someone guide you and again I started young in the hobby.
I can guarantee if I was one of your "buddies" it would not be the case, as you would therefore grant me the respect that you would engender for one of your peers, and the guidance would be considered accepted council.
I am sure you didn't feel hostile to Andy or any of the other dealers. I know for a fact that many people liked Andy's approach and you can bet he was making recommendations to people the same way that I do.
As per selling my wares most of the posts about Paradigm has not resulted in any sales as there are territorial issues in the States and Vermeer is in Europe, another gentleman in Canada.
So if we come across as a shill for Paradigm you come accross as a shill for Wilson as you are always mentioning them or chiming in are you on ther payroll? Ctstooner is in love with Vandersteen so is he also on Vandersteen's payroll? If you get my drift most audiophiles are high on their brand because they feel they are the best they have heard.
I also said in one of my earlier posts that I don't think the Paradigms are the best speakers on Earth I stated they are a great value for what they do.
Notice I never said to someone looking at Harbeths to look at Paradigms? Why becaue Harbeths are musical ie colored while Paradigm Personas are not, here I would talk about ATC why because ATC is a rival to Harbeth and they are also musical although to my ears much less colored.
So if I am a shill why do I talk about so many different products, why do I talk about my products, duh I have selected them because to my ear they are better or I wouldn't endorse them.
I will state my point one last time, this is a forum and which is supposed to act as a way for people to exhange ideas.
If no one ever chimes in with why don't you listen to X no one will ever learn about new products and new companies, sometimes to the detriment of others who might actually want to find out about products they are not considering.
In your case the only thing anyone will learn from you is that you don't like me and nothing about audio as your postings are mostly in agreement without ever questioning if brand x is right for the poster like on the Proac vs Wilson thread.
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Sabai who is getting abused. Grgr4blu chimes in and attacks and attacks and attacks. I am not goint to allow this without rebuttal. His behavior is about revenge for feeling slighted in someway by me. It does not belong in the forums. My perceived crime was to talk too much to him. If he was a real gentleman he could have just talked with me in an adult matter at the store and I would have willingly never talked with him again, he could have done that in a respectful matter and I would have gotten the hint. You can't have it both ways, a dealer is going to promote their products if they talk at all about them even if in agreement, to mention you have or are a dealer you place yourself in that position. Yet when we enter into a discussion with a Canadian or European, a US dealer gains nothing. As per Grgr4blu's integrity
Searching for the most "accurate" speaker (below 15K) I’m looking for the most accurate and resolving speakers (budget is <= 15K). Paradigm Persona 3F, Kef Reference 3 or Focal Sopra 2 are some of the options I can think of. Any opinions on how these compare? Should I had other options to this shortlist? The amplifier is the (absolutely extraordinary) Nagra Classic AMP.
Gee Vermeer is directly mentioning Personas and Kefs which are two brands we sell, seeking information and opinions on them, who better to address this then a dealer who actually sell both brands, and I knew full well he is in Portugal so it is IMPOSSIBLE to sell him anything. So it seems you don't follow your own rules now doesn't it? "Note that I never attack Audiotroy unless he comes into a thread having nothing to do with his products under the guise of educating the OP when in fact he is selling his wares. " As part of our continuous and never ending fights on that thread: Audiotroy: I need not prove my hearing capabilities to you. Nor are you entitled to waste my time proving anything to you, a naked Persona shill here on Audiogon. Are you paid an extra commission to sell them? I'm not entitled to that answer so don't bother. That does not address any of the issues on the thread it is directly an attack. As per the concept of shilling: Grgr4blu you seem to talk about how great your system is are you therfore a shill? Is Ctstooner also a shill for Vandersteen? He seems to mention them a lot. I am willing to bet by your definition almost anyone who is passionatly endorsing or recommending any brand is a shill |
The solution to all of this is simple NO One should be attacking anyone on these forums.
If you perceive that someone’s advice a poster, a moderator a dealer, or anyone on these forums is not to your tastes, or for some personal gain, just be a grown up and don’t read that persons post, just pretend it isn’t there.
It is like the people who believe that censorship is the answer to seeing something on TV you find objectionable, most people in the US feel that the constituion guarantees us the right to free speech therefore the common thing that people have resorted to is the comment not to watch or turn the channel.
Please lets all grow up a bit and respect each others rights to post, and right to have an opinion and maybe you will find out when you hear X Y or Z at some show and go wow that product sounds great, or a product that you own and have heard sound aweful at a show, which sounds fantastic to you in your system that setup is everything and we all have tastes.
Some people love black coffee while others drink coffee which is half milk and 4 spoonfuls of sugar, which is right? It comes down to personal taste and bias while others say I hate coffee, and that same person has never tasted a really good high end cup and viola now likes coffee.
We test a lot of products, if you actually call us and speak to myself or Troy you can see for yourself and you are free to visit my store and listen to any of our systems and see for yourself if we make good sound or not.
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Okay my supporters are fake how many fake Wilson supporters or Vandersteen supporters or Lamm or ARC of whatever.
The reality is these people are real, and have found out that I really do know my stuff, and have either been to my store or have actually talked with me.
Grow up Grgr4blu, you have the maturity of a nat. Please patronize the dealer friends you have whom I am sure will sell you the most expensive gear that they have because they know what is best for you and why don;'t you have the balls to let me know who you really are or are you just the coward you exhibit here.
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I would like to retort to a couple of you guys.
Frstly so sorry to appear to you to be a "shill" however when a person such as Ctstooner, mentions in nearly every thread how great Vandersteen’s are how come none of you questions if he is a "shill" is it because he doesn’t work for a dealer and I am sure there are plenty of others.
So how do you draw the fine line between a passionate enthiusist and a dealer who says the same thing? If you think the reason is that the enthusist doesn’t have anything to gain, I am willing to bet there are "enthusists" here who are friends with their dealers and are most likely promoting on their behalf and that is not to mention actual shills that hide and don’t say their affiliation.
As per salesperson vs sales professional, the difference is not what you think. A salesperson is the best buy order taker yep Sony is better, no Yahmaha, is better, they don’t educate, and they don’t suggest brands they don’t sell its called order taking.
A sales professional has a wide base of knowledge of the products they sell and don’t sell and can recommend appropriate products for someone’s taste, budget and situation, again, if you think this is just because dealer x sells line Y most dealers sell their brands because they believe that their products either sound better, sound as good, or cost less and provide nearly the same performance.
We compaired a brand of electronics we sell $32k vs a $90k amp and in some ways the $32k amp was better in other ways the $90k one was, and we said that, we didn’t say our amp blew away amp x we reported the findings.
As per selling or promoting to make a profit, guess what most of the time it hasn’t happened, due to distance or territorial restrictions. We post to let people consider looking at products they might not have thought about to which they will hopefully go their local dealers to check out.
So lets look at a possible scenario shall we: I was thinking about buying a used pair of X they are $35k new while a used pair is $25k, why don’t you consider speaker Z it is brand new at $25k offers you this this and this and you may like it better or it may fit your needs even better.
If that person with an open mind then listend to said product, which would not likely not be with us, and found that product to be even better, do you know what that person would have been delighted to have read the post and been pissed off at you guys bashing someone who was making a good suggestion.
As per being a "home based dealer" it is the lines that you sell not where you sell them that makes you a dealer. What is a store it is a place which has products usually set up in an enviornment that is totally not like someone’s home, there are also a number of dealerships just like mine, run out of a house for conveinience or to save money on outragous rent to focus on product selection which we have a wide and varied lineup
Every heard of GTT Audio, they are a home based dealer/importer, Apex Audio’s in Colorado’s previous incarnation Audio Unlimited, was a home based dealer and they had the Focal Grand Utopias as well as many A list companies, Command AV in VA and there are a lot more, I think Ne Plus Ultra a Wilson dealer is based out of home as well.
When we said we actually have a wider product selection than most of the New York dealers that is not a boast, we have a huge selection of great products, in surround sound receivers we sell and display, Anthem, Arcam, Cambridge Audio, and Nad, we can actually demo each one in the same room/system.
As per lines carried most of our lines are A class lines, products such as KEF, Paradigm, Legacy, ATC, Dali, PSB, NAD, Conrad Johnson, T+A, BAT, Naim Manly, Rega, Lumin, Aurender, Cary Audio, Unison Research, Audioquest, Wireworld, Audience, Parasound, Anthem, Arcam, Electrocompaniet, Nuprime, are all great lines.
In the past we have carried Luxman, Hegel, Vivid, Bryston, Aragon,Chord, as well as many others lines that are well respected we noved on when we found better sounding products such as Unison Research which at the time sounded better than the Hegel and Luxman products.
4425 If you haven’t guessed we don’t want Wilson, as we feel they are more about ever escalating pricing, and changing models constantly and have lost their way, and we are very fond of the speaker lines we do sell, if you have also read our posts we do recommend Vivid and Rockport as being uber speakers and we don’t sell either of those lines currently, as per ARC haven’t heard their latest stuff but have found over the years issues with reliability and being a bit too sterile.
At this point being a mature dealership, we can carry almost any major line that interests us. We choose to carry lines that in our mind exhude value as well as performance.
You guys really need to lighten up and stop worrying that our little old dealership is running the forums. The entire industry is dying because of close minded people that are not interested in widening their worlds or looking at new ideas, that might interest others.
Dave owner, master troll, super shill, stealer of the one true ring
Audio Doctor NJ.
and even though I feel some of you have attacked us and in the case oif Grgr4blu with malacious intent, I would still welcome you into our store for you to see if you think we make great sound. Our hearts and ears are open are yours?
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Mr_M, sorry to in your words bloviate, there are a lot of issues that have been raised which all need to be addressed and in fact all of these issues could be there own posts.
There are real shills here both dealer affliated and non affiliated
There was the concept of what constitutes a dealer.
There was also the discussion of motivativation for profit when many times there is none to be gained.
There was also the discussion of what consitutes hi-jacking vs suggestion of alternative product that might fit someone's needs possible better and for less money or the same money.
Yes I can see a lot of the points being raised on both sides some of which I agree with and some which I do not.
If you are in our neck of the woods, and want to visit fine, the fact that you an audiophile would not want to visit our store based on a discussion I personaly find sad not for me but for you.
Personal feelings should not get in the way of wanting to check out someone's store or listen to a product. We treat our clients very well as evidenced by people who have actually been to our store.
You don't know if for example I looked at your setup and said do x y or z and suddenly your system sounded dramatically better if you would be thrilled or you are colored by what you read let you make up your mind to the motivations of someone you have never personally talked with or visited their store.
I will give you one little example currently we are testing a $2,000.00 power cord with some unique technology that has made a gigantic difference in one of our setups, now if I make a post that says this and I sell this product do you now believe it or question the findings as our profit motive is what in your mind is driving the post, do you then want to check out the product sold by us as well as others for yourself or do you discount the findings based on your perecieved dialog of us.
In the end it is your decision, not mine, if you want to seek our council or not, check out our products or recommendations or not.
When I am traveling I go to audio stores some of those stores have great reputations and their sound is good and sometimes it is not, I don't let my perceptions or preconceived notions alter my desire to visit their stores I visit them anyway all in the desire to see if I can find a better product then what I sell, and most of the time if I find it I move into that line.
Dave master troll and ruller of the evil empire
Audio Doctor NJ
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greghn,
I don’t enjoy bickering or making long winded explanations, no body should be attacking anyone on these forums, or at shows or in stores.
The direct approach is best Grgr4blu didn’t like my style of getting to know and talk to my clients about all things not including just audio, and he didn’t like my effusive sales style.
1 year at Innovative Audio I sold $40k worth of Black Diamond racing cones and shelves because I grabbed everyone to show them how a $700 worth of Black Diamond products could make a huge difference in a systems performance for little cost compared to changing a component.
Was the reason I was showing inexpensive accessories to make money or was it that the product was great and effective, and people who heard my presenation purchased the product because they heard the same thing which then lead to the sales?
That was many years ago, I haven’t worked at SBS for 13 or 14 years now, so what happend between him and myself was probably around 1993 pretty long time to hold a grude about a sales person whose crime was talking too much and being too effusive.
All he had to do was to pull me aside and directly say in a nice manor that he didin’t like my approach and that would have been that. No need for animosity. He has consistantly acted like I have hurt him in someway and lashes out accordingly. Not Cool, and no one needs him to protect the forums.
You will see that most posts I have commented on are one or two mentions it is only in regards to being attacked that rebuttals occur.
Just like Dynaquest being incredulous of my findings. He could PM me and find out the entire story, and he could if he wanted to check out the product from any of that companies dealers if he felt too strongly against my biases
On one of the loudspeaker posts in comes a European guy directly making an actual sales pitch to buy from him now that is shilling.
Me saying to someone in Albequrique New Mexico or Spain or Detroit to go check out a pair of Legays, ATC, or Paradigms is not shiling unless they fly into NJ and come to my store and purchase from me, not gaining a thing and that is the difference between shilling and making a recommendation. |
4425 Bill doesn’t have to he has made a fortune direct selling his products vs being a true importer that doesn’t sell direct. Go ask Kharma how that relationship ended up or any of the lines that he killed.
He is too busy halking his wares at shows all over the place to care about these forums.
As per 75% is from me, how many posts were directed at slandering me or making some nasty commment at my direction? Do you expect me to take these insults from people without being able to retort.
Go check out my post to your USB question, and see how I answer most posts, we have tested 4 or 4 brands and models of USB cables do you think my findings there might be helpful or is that shilling to my brands?
What I meant Wilson losing their way, how many companies consistantly come out with a new model every few years at dramatically ever increasing price points and make most of their changes impossible to retrofit?
Is this fair to the consumer? I know you love your Wilson’s I was not commenting on their sound. Dave Wilson drives a Ferrari who many people in audio are wealthy due to sales of their products? The real answer is not many.
Dynaquest, yes a huge difference, increase in rhythemic percussive qualities and a slightly tighter bass. Putting this one cable in line with our reference power conditioner has made the entire presentation much more holographic and incisive. Once experienced hard to want to remove it.
Buy one and find out for yourself or don’t. Not your average power cord, has a huge active circuit in it with actual electronics.
Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ |
Jfant
Isotek Synchro
So far tested it direct to a component and as a replacement cord into a power conditioner in both cases wow.
Uses an AC Balancing circuit plus filtering
Dave owner
Audio Doctor |
Okay I will chime in
Anthem
Aqua Hifi Dacs
Aurender
Audioquest
Audio Magic
April Music
Audience
Acoustic Systems Resonators
Acoustic Systems Cartridges
ATC
Athom
Audio Control
Baetis Servers
Benz
Cambridge Audio
Cabasse
Cary Audio
Coda
Crowson Tactille
Conrad Johnson
Dali
Earthquake
Enklein Cables
Electrocompaniet
Gradient
Isotek
Innious Zenith Server
JL Audio
KEF,
KEF Rerferece
KEF Blades
LG
Legacy
Light Harmonic the Davinci
Lyra
Lumin
Nad
Nad Masters
Naim
Naim Uniti
Manley Labs
Merrill Wiliams
Mr. Speaker
Micromega
Nuprime
Parasound
Paradigm Prestige
Paradigm Persona
PSB
Polymer Audio Research
Rethem Loudspeakers
Rega
Shakti
Solid Tech Racks
Sythesis Italian Tube Amplifiers
Screen Innovations
T+A
Unison Research
Waterfall
Wireworld
Audio Doctor dealer of the month too :} love your focus it just seems a bit limited
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Keith your loss not anyone elses.
As per tirades the only triade that has ever occurred is when we are attacked by someone in particular.
Our posts are found to be very helpful to many people.
If you are boycotting a product based upon what a particular person says about it versus your own feelings you will never purchase anything as there are detractors on everything as well as many fans of many products.
A wise man seeks advice from all sources and learns accordingly.
I have over 30 years of field experience in tunning and designing systems.
The reason for that post is to illustrate the difference between a hobbist dealer and a real dealer in terms of experience and selection.
Good luck to you sir.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Yes Grgr4blu you know what they say.
If you had ever visted us listened to our systems maybe you wouldnt be so out of touch.
The people who visit the shop all say the same things.
We have a real selection and most people love comming to a store which actually offers choices.
Not to mention offering a real home environment and offering our guests real hospitality is something we enjoy.
Our selection of goods represent many unique brands that most people would love to hear.
As well as offering a facility where you can hear 2-4 of the top choices in each catagory.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Ah there you are Gr4blu, the ever defensive audiophile.
You blow out of proportion the intent of these posts. We mentioned casually in a post where the OP wanted to put a pair of Alexia in a room that was way too small for them, that he should consider listening to a pair of Persona 9H which use active room correction to ensure good bass response and they cost $22k less then a pair of Alexia.
It is up to the OP to determine if that bit of information might encourage the OP to check out a product that he wasn’t considering.
This lead to a huge back and forth confrontation between you and our people. The reality of it is the chance that the OP was even in our territory, was remote at best.
If you can save someone $22, 000.00 dollars and get them a set of speakers that they MAY prefer or like as much that would acoustically work in their room, would be to most people a good thing, but not to you as you cry foul as someone is trolling a Wilson post, what if the OP after reading that post actually went and heard those speakers and found to his surprise that the Personas did sound to his ears as good or better and he managed to save $22,000 do you think he would maybe be happier than if he never read the post?
Most people do not think of Paradigm as they have never until now have built a reference line of loudspeakers, same thing with Legacy they have very few dealers even though their products constantly get high praise in the magazines.
As per the Sasha post we said to someone who was questioning wether or not a set of brand new Sashas was better than a 25 year pair or Proacs to check out all of his options, and so we mentioned a few good ones which we sell and a few which we don’t.
The fact that the OP wasn’t convinced enough to purchase the speakers says volumes about that you don’t read, he had doubts so maybe the Sashas weren’t doing it for him 100% or maybe he was concerned that his electronics or room wouldn’t match. Did you reach out and talk to the man?
You who have never actually worked with me, or been to my store you have no idea, to you everyone and everything is "salesmanship" you complain about excessive talking as a crime. Most people who purchase audio love to talk about gear and technology.
As per my SBS days I was the most sucessful salesman there because I interviewed my clients to determine which products or systems would suit them the best and whenever possible to introduce less expensive or higher value products if those products sounded fantatic for the money.
Some people don’t actually get it, we are bound by territorial restrictions and many people reading these posts we can never sell to.
As I mentioned before these products are just tools if you can find a better one you may consider the wiser move to just move into a new one.
As per hijacking Wilson threads or hijacking any thread most people really don’t care, If you didn’t attack us the post would have been one quick mention why don’t you also consider x y or z but you have to constantly attack and so rebuttal leads to rebuttal.
Moral of the story who really cares? If Wilson is the best or Magico or Paradigm or whatever you buy what you like, and most people buy what they are exposed to.
I am willing to bet there are Mercedes drivers who have switched to BMW and vice versa, if you wispered to a German car guy in the emerging days of Lexus and Infintiy that these new high end Japanese cars are great and they challenge the best German cars, and they cost less, you know what it, caused Mercedes and BMW to revaulate their products as they started to lose market share to these new marquees.
Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ
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Grgr4blu you have an interesting take on our history.
As you have said you stopped working with me because i talked too much gee what a crime. Most of my actual clients liked to have conversations.
As per working with me you again mistake fact with fiction.
Unless you purchased what I recommended or had come to your home and brought products to you and worked together via a testing session we havent worked together.
As per knowledge i started in audio at age 5 first reel to reel and started with my own real system at 13, as well as building and modifying Dynacos with my dad as a teen.
You mistake age with wisdom.
As per trying to sell you something ie Ushers or Personas if it was at an audio show that is called a presentation most people who go to shows know that.
Integrity if you have a problem with someones approach you tell them in a nice but constructive mannor which is what people who care about other people do.
Instead you run to Andy or do as you do here hide behind your Audiogon handle.
I dont even know who you actually are.
What is interesting to note is how
Yyzsantabarbara
Willgolf
Ricridi1
Whom are people who have actually talked to me and in some cases bought stuff that they enjoyed all tell a different story.
Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ
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wow dlcokrum, that is really kind of nasty. We are attacked time and time again by a man who is friends with other dealers yet loves to slander mine as he is not a friend, and states that he doesn't like me or my staff, is that being unbiased and neutral and he makes ridiculous claims against my products and a few of you think that is okay.
Grgr4blu's attacks lead to rebuttals which cause this "hijacking" as we are forced to rebutt his claims.
You can say you don't like the sound of the Paradigms but at this point it is impossible to deny they are a contenter aganst Magico, Wilson, Rockport, etc, what you like is a different matter.
Are they the best speakers on Earth no they are not, and I have never said that, what I have said is that they are a tremendous value for what they do and offer for the price.
I make the last post not as a boastful thing, but how do you know anything? You test. If Dealer A has a limited selection how does he know how good many other brands are they he doesn't sell?
We sell most of the best digital products such as Arunder, Lumin, Naim, Innious, and others. Do we sell all on the market no we don't it isn't possible but how many dealers sell all of those brands?
We are proud of our store and our wide selection of great products that we sell.
Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ
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Grgr4blu, also as your selling out of his home, nasty crack, we have a wider product selection then most of the New York dealers, go check out our video and you will see more unique gear on display, then almost anywhere in this part of the country. Our older video shot 1.5 year ago, does not show the T+A audio gear, the Light Harmonic Davinci, the Aqua Hifi Forumula, ATC speakers, Legacy speakers, Baetis music servers,Micromega M100, NAD M32, plus a lot more gear. So look at pictures of our shop vs your buddies shop do you want to know why we are quite knoweledable look at our store. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NPIn3pEmI4and lastly you who are turned off by my "salesmanship" have never been to my store and have never worked with me so you have NO DIRECT experience with me nor have heard systems at my store you have only heard my show setups. So how much do you reallly know, if you had worked with me, tried some of my suggestions, and I was not able to make your system dramatically better or heard my store setups then maybe you would have a chance to be considered a fair and unbiased voice. And to the gentleman who believes that you should shun dealers that promote their products, the reason that most dealers have the products they sell is because they believe them to be better, hence they want to sell those products. Our store sells many great brands whether a BAT, a Vac, a Manly Labs, or CJ sounds as good or better than an ARC of Lamm or whatever tube amp that an OP may be talking about, it should not be considered a total faux pau to mention any of the competiting product, if a dealer talks about a product that may be exactly what the OP is looking for that should be considerd a good thing and the likely hood that the OP would or could find the recommendation to be a good thing and they would then seek out their local dealer to listen to said producte. This hostitlity towards dealers is just silly as most dealers can be a great source of knowledge and have a tremendous amount of experience. Dave owner Audio Doctor NJ |
