I'm not sure this post was about Audiotroy but since he maintains it is about him and mentions me as someone who will "swoop in", I must respond. I have criticized Audiotroy ONLY when he hijacks threads, usually devoted to Wilson speakers, to promote his own products. The OPs in the last 2 threads Audiotroy hijacked were asking other Wilson owners, in the first case, which of 2 Wilson speakers would work in a room of a certain size and in the second instance whether the OP should opt for new Sabrinas vs used Sasha 2s.
In both threads, Audiotroy came in with his usual hundreds if not thousands of words to extol his dealership, his experience and his products (in a subsequent post in the last hijacked thread, he mentioned additional products that he did not carry so that it appeared as if he were being generally helpful--rather than just shilling for himself), his experience with Wilson which he says he used to sell and his professional opinion that Legacys, Paradigm Personas and any number of other brands that he sells are better values for the money---but, of course, he avers, Wilsons are good if you like that kind of sound. In addition, he usually comments in his posts about his excellent reputation in the industry and how he, unlike other dealers--most of whom are just out to make a buck--truly cares about his customer's needs and that is why he is hijacking. He's here to help us all.
I'm a big boy and can easily handle anyone who comes into a thread about a product to suggest another. We've all known the poster who comes into threads to tell the uninitiated that he has found the "best" of its kind and that the OP would be well advised to have a listen. Sometimes that enthusiasm causes me to look that item up and check it out.
However, Audiotroy has invaded numerous threads in which I was a participant and he has invaded them in the fashion stated above. I find these invasive postings extremely distasteful due to their length, promotion of self and denigration of other dealers in the NY metro area--all of whom I (and my audiophile friends) patronize.
The types of postings Auditroy makes when he hijacks threads are not consistent with the club-like camaradarie that this site used to engender.
In these threads, to assist the OP to place Audiotroy's ostensibly educational hijacking in context-- I choose to provide a bit of personal history which involved my encounters and the encounters of numerous members of my listening group with Dave Lalin who had, years ago, worked at Sound By Singer. To a man, when any of us went there, we would ask Andy Singer to make sure he was not the salesperson any of us would be stuck with as he would keep us there forever, talk our ears off--and then attempt to sell us something we did not need. i also have dealt with Dave at audio shows where the hyperbole goes on to infinity.
So---yes I'm for the free flow of information including the occasional dealer or manufacturer posting providing insights into questions about their own products or issues of general interest (thanks always to Atmasphere, Jonathan Carr and others). But if every dealer---or even 10 dealers-- behaved like Dave did, each extolling his brands over the other dealers' brands in a thread where an OP asked nothing about those brands--how much fun would that be?
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Thanks bar 81. By the way, Audiotroy mischaracterizes the thread he invaded to make it seem like the poster was confused about which speakers he should consider. The OP indicated that he currently owned Proacs and wanted to upgrade to either used Sasha 2s or Sabrinas. He wanted help in choosing between those two. Then in came Audiotroy to tell him that he should consider others---with his usual thousand words.
I want all to know that I only call out Audiotroy when he invades a thread in which I am already a participant and hijacks it away from an OP's inquiry. I will never seek him out just to badger him as my time is more important than to be bothered searching for whatever Audiotroy has to say which is always too much.
I truly enjoy this forum and would be sad to see it devolve into an opportunistic salesman's feeding ground. If I can stop the momentum,I will. I will certainly not remain silent or quit because of Audiotroy's misconduct. |
Let’s put this all in perspective. I never mind dealer or manufacturer who discloses his interest and comments on his own products or on things of general interest. In fact, it is often very informative and helpful. It is all in the way that they present themselves. For example:
1-A helpful suggestion, comment on appropriate ancillaries, comment on how to use the products a poster manufactures or sells and many other types of posts by such folks are welcome.
2-A naked shill who invades a thread having nothing to do with his products, talks on and on about himself, his reputation and experience while denigrating others among his ranks and who is out to steer the OP away from the product the OP has clearly decided upon in the hopes that the OP will purchase his products or that others in the thread will learn about his products---not welcome.
If all dealers and manufacturers followed 1 above, this forum would be fabulous. If they followed 2, it would be hell. |
Audiotroy:
You obviously did not read my last post which sums up my position on manufacturers and dealers. Nothing more needs to be said. I'm done here. |
Audiotroy:
I am not going to debate with you about the thrust of the OP's inquiry which anyone can view and judge your conduct therein. Nor will I repeat what I said above that you also misread.
Last, I am not one who feels that there are good dealers who are my friends vs bad dealers here on Audiogon. You can look at my history. I have never said a word in any forum to anyone in the audio trade (except words of occasional thanks and agreement with manufacturers, manufacturer reps, dealers, audio magazine writers and others) except for the ever speaking, ever selling Audiotroy of Audio Doctor who sells from his home the best gear in the world and who knows more than the other dealers in the area (who, unlike him are only out to make a buck) about all things audio and who will take or create any opportunity to push the worlds greatest speakers, the only speakers to ever garner praise from audio critics,--the mighty beryllium (best substance for drivers ever made bar none) Paradigm Personas even when no one is asking or wants to hear. |
Audiotroy:
Selling out of your home a nasty crack? How is the truth a nasty crack?
You claim I have no direct experience with you. But Dave, as I've said on numerous occasions (which you do not comprehend because you only know how to talk too much, not to listen) , I have worked with you as I've said and on at least 4 or 5 occasions at Sound By Singer and at 2 different audio shows when you were desperately pushing Audio Doctor products and where you tried to hard sell me Ushers (one time) and then Personas (the next time) like no one else at a show ever pushed me.
I stopped seeing you at Sound By Singer because I asked Andy to make sure I did not have to deal with you as a salesperson. I usually had about and hour and a half to listen to a desired product but, with you, I'd only get to listen for a half hour because I could not get you to stop talking for the first hour and telling me how great you were and what you thought I should buy. I was one of a number of people I know who made that request of Andy. Ask him--he'll remember a group of us who separately and independently did not want to hear what you had to say in your definitive (yet highly subjective) way. We were all more educated in the audio world than you at that time and did not need to hear your introduction to yourself and your self professed expertise every time we visited.
As I've also said, we all built speakers, amps, cables and other DIY audio products and had years of experience with most of the manufacturers of the day. We did not need the salesman's rush. But as always, you never listened and just kept on talking. Just like here. See---I would not have to tell everyone in this thread about our history as I have done in other threads if you did not lie about me never working with you.
Last, many NY dealers are friends because I've purchased a lot of gear over the past 38 years and have purchased more than 2 or 3 items from virtually all of them. We do not eat out together or check in on the family--we are not that close-- but when you, of all people, impugn all of them as out to make a buck--unlike you who sells gear because you care about what is in the best interests of the customer, I'm sorry--I'd just like the readership to know that I and a large number of my audio buddies have had a far different experience. |
+1 jbatlanta:
One of my posts directed at Audiotroy was also deleted some time ago. He has overtaken Bo as the worst blowhard on Audiogon. Hey, right now there is a Persona thread where Dave is selling like mad with some fake supporters. I was going to invade, but I just can't bring myself to act like him. |
Audiotroy:
You can’t help yourself from lying. The fact that I mentioned in this thread (about you hijacking threads) that I refuse to hijack a current active thread re Personas to get back at you because I am not like you---does not mean I have hijacked a thread. Never have--never will. You will note that I do not appear on the Persona thread because I do not wish to stoop to your level. Besides, I unlike you, have nothing to sell.
Ethiessen1-
You are correct. I could cool it a little and I will. I would be bored to tears reading our exchanges. But it’s not animosity on my part. Note that I never attack Audiotroy unless he comes into a thread having nothing to do with his products under the guise of educating the OP when in fact he is selling his wares. So, as a service to the other members of that thread who do not know his m.o. and who may actually think he is providing valuable unbiased information, I place his never ending promotions in context. He then produces a thousand words to defend himself--usually attacking me with lies--like above--and on it goes.-It’s the way Audiotroy does it that gets to me because it was done to me in person and others I know when he worked at Sound By Singer and at shows since then --by holding himself out as THE expert and his products as THE best for the money while denigrating other dealers and extolling his own integrity. BTW, I liked all other salespeople at Sound By Singer and have never had a problem with any other salesperson at any other dealership in all of my years.
But I hear you Ethiessen1--and will keep my attacks shorter and sweeter in the future. And, AS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE, I will not deal with Audiotroy’s bad conduct unless he invades a thread I am engaged in which has nothing to do with his products to sell them. As I’ve said before but Audiotroy never hears--no hijacking in the Audiotroy style mentioned above=silence from me. |
To respond to Audiotroy's continued lies above. I never never stated that I have a "great system" as he claims I've said. Nor have I or would I say anything to that effect. My system is no better than anyone else's system that works for them. I have also not hijacked a Persona thread as he said. I will quote my post on October 28th on another thread in which Audiotroy accused me of appearing to have an axe to grind against him him:
"Audiotroy:
Your store has good products, indeed many excellent ones. I’m a fan of ATC, T&A, Legacy, KEF, Stiipoints and many others that it appears you may sell. I actually have no ax to grind. Don’t hijack with never ending "educational" and self promoting pablum and biased dealer opinions and we’ll be fine. Just look at posts by Jonathan Carr, Atmasphere, Audioengr, Kevin Deal (Upscale Audio), Albert Porter (Allnic) and countless others whose opinions many of us here value. They don’t come in to threads that have nothing to do with their products and suggest to OPs to try their products as an alternative to the product at hand. I’m sure they have the urge to talk about their very extensive knowledge and experience and cite chapter and verse of how they came to manufacture or sell what they believe to be the best products of their kind. But they don’t. That is why when they speak, we still listen attentively and often learn.
And you don’t have to claim that you have more integrity than other dealers to sell your stuff. It is simply not necessary. Let the products you sell speak for themselves.
Peace"
Audiotroy has not responded. |
A thread initiated by someone other than me regarding Audiotroy’s shameless self promotion has devolved into a thread for more of Audiotroy’s self promotion. Ironic.
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I agree Tomic601.
It surely doesn't matter what Dave drives.
It appears that Dave Wilson can buy a Ferrari because he makes a highly regarded product which sells very well. He runs a profitable business operation with a knowledgeable and dedicated workforce and he has good promotional skills.
THE END |
