dCS Bartok Apex vs McIntosh DA2 - Trouble Hearing the Difference
I am currently playing a new set of Focal Scala Evos with a McIntosh MA9500, fed by a Wiim Pro playing Tidal Direct. This set up uses the McIntosh DA2, which sounds remarkable to my untrained ears.
I borrowed a dCS Bartok Apex from my local dealer. Given that I can run balanced out (using Transparent Reference Gen 6 cables) to the MA9500, I can switch inputs to compare the DA2 & Wiim vs the Bartok (DAC & Streaming) very quickly. I level matched the best I could.
What I am confused about, though, is just how close the DA2 sounds to the Bartok. The most noticeable difference is how forward and prevalent vocals are with the DA2. They seem anchored to the center image and several feet more forward into the room, whereas in the Bartok they are a bit more recessed, and integrated into the rest of the music. The Bartok soundstage is also wider, but not shockingly so. The sound is definitely smoother or "rounder" with the Bartok as compared to the DA2.
I admit I am relatively new to critical listening, but I think I expected the difference between the $20K Bartok and the built-in DA2 to be more profound. I'm not anxious to spend the money on the Bartok, but am willing to do if it is a significant step up, which I think it should be.
So what am I missing? Am I perhaps limited by the MA9500? My dealer doesn't love autoformer-based Mc products, but many do, so I would have thought the MA9500 is sufficiently resolving. Room acoustics are not the best, but certainly not terrible.
Room acoustics (untreated walls, tiled floors, etc.), overwhelming bass output (from subs or speakers) and speaker placement can affect how much difference you can perceive between components and cables. If room acoustics aren’t a concern, then..
When doing a comparison, based on my experience comparing DAC, don’t go flipping back and forth between inputs during one song. At a minimum listen to the entire song, make mental notes. Repeat the same with the other dac.
Better yet, give yourself a whole day with dcs without listening to McIntosh inbuilt dac. Then switch over and listen to the same playlist. Give your brain more time to acclimate to one dac before switching.
I heard a McIntosh DA1 dac and unless DA2 is some sort of a revelation, it can’t stand a chance against a better DAC, and it shouldn’t take dCS to beat it.
It could be that your McIntosh integrated is applying the McIntosh house sound to the Bartok. I'd discuss that with the dealer.
There could be many other reasons why the Bartok doesn't sound better, but as long as it doesn't, there's no reason to spend 20k on one. As long as your system sounds remarkable to you just enjoy it and keep your money.
You might try to avoid comparing them and spend some quality time (like days) listening to the music. If you are not really experience switching bake and forth and listening to the system instead of the music can be confusing. All the differences will reveal themselves in the music.
One additional thing to note is that the dCs sound is pretty lean and detailed and can come off as very dry. You might want to audition something on the more natural side as well. But take your time.
If you want to be even more surprised, order a Bluesound Node as your streamer. I was running a Wiim Pro into a MA352 and I found the Node was a lot more musical than the Wiim into the Mcintosh. On my Asian Class AB amp, the difference wasn't as drastic and both streamers performed admirable.
Beautiful room and system! It looks as if the speakers are set-up for HT. Optimizing speaker placement for 2 channel is an entirely different ballgame. Very WAF and interior design unfriendly. Take a look at assorted Virtual Systems. Also, high-end components, such as the Bartok, offer nuance and finesse - not a completely different sound. Excellent feedback from posters above.
I was a massive McIntosh fan for a really long time and owned a lot of Mac gear since 1998 or so…. I finally spent some time comparing McIntosh products to other hi end pre-amps and amps. I found Audio Research, Gryphon, Moon & Acuphase produced a sound that I much preferred. The Mac gear come out sluggish, thick, non-musical and lacking in almost all comparisons. Ask your dealer if you can take home a different integrated…? Maybe Acuphase or Moon or Gryphon….?? That’s where you’re gonna be blown away and start writing checks for outstanding gear that warrants the spend with dramatically different sound…. Not better….just different which sounds what you’re looking for.
I have several amps that I play around with. I found that the Mcintosh MA352 is very particular to the source, or the streamer and DAC. For instance, running the wiim pro I almost gave up on the Mcintosh and it sounded as poorly as you described. With the Bluesound Node and an upgraded external DAC, it sounds amazing . It takes time to get the right synergy, but there are amps out there that will be more airy, detailed, holographic, better transient response; but at same time there will be a trade off in richness, warmth, rounded notes - and those hyperdetailed amps can be a little screechy at times on violins, with harsher treble causing hearing damage and ear ringing. The Mcintosh is an amazing amp and I will always keep one in rotation, right now the Ma352 is my primary amp for violin concertos and orchestral music. Don’t get me wrong I love hyperdetailed , holographic, fast amps, and addicted to that sound too, but I think it’s really a trade off and side moves after a certain spend. Keep in mind, the amp is only a percentage of the sound signature, you can still make major adjustments with the source , DACs, cables, and of course speakers. So it's kind of hard to paint with a broad brush, everyone's system is different and can be made and tuned in ways that could be very specific to what you're looking for.
If you are going to pit the Mac DAC against something closer to the price budget, consider the new Linear Tube Audio DAC. It is very reasonably priced and is winning accolades for value and quality. I believe that DAC would be a very different sound from your current setup. I have a much more expensive DAC setup but that would be a quick way to do an A/B comparison. You will need a separate streamer and high-quality USB cable, like an Innuos Zenith, but you'll still come out way better than the dCS unit.
You might consider the WiiM Pro a bottleneck. It is a great value at $150 but I am just guessing it may not be up to the task of giving all the information required to get everything out of the Bartok Apex. The WiiM is a great value and sounds great for what it is but it is not the be all end all in terms of sources
@verdantaudio - Good suggestion, but the Bartok is actually serving as both streamer (through Tidal Direct) as well as DAC. So it’s really Wiim & DA2 vs Bartok.
I think it's that crappy transparent cable thats making it so you can't hear the difference, they use cheap OFC wire which is the worst wire for audio get some OCC single crystal wire It's far superior to anything OFC at any price.
I am not surprised, I auditioned DCS Bartok and compared to Hegel 590 internal DAC, and there was no improvement. I ended up getting Denafrips Terminator plus. And I am happy. My source is Bluesound. Bartok is not very good in my experience. Also a lot of glitches occurred when transitioning from one song to next one. I was not very pleased.
Similar to the experience of fishagedone, when in for service I auditioned a dcs bartok with my heritage Mac system (2125 amp, C28 preamp, XR5 Mac speakers) it was very nice and detailed. However, I later purchased a Bluesound Node X and after the break in period it was an extremely close second. As my dealer and others suggested the Node X punched way above its weight. Not suggesting a Node X for you but saying that the extra dollars may bring a minimal improvement. In my system it was finding the right room, having the correct speaker placement, as well as adding a Rel S510 subwoofer, that has made it as close to audio perfection for my ears as I desire.
Also, I must sat Mcintosh is a wonderful company to deal with. Actual employees who care will pick up the phone and give you straight answers in my experience. I am concerned about Dcs and their threat of suing a young YouTuber for giving a negative review - it shows a lot about what kind of company they are to even entertain doing something so incredibly asinine
I have the DA2 in my C2700. It is incredibly good for the money, and I do not doubt that it will give Bartok a run for it. I would try a different DAC since the Bartok is highly overrated. The Bartok originally sold in the US for $13K and then rose to around $17K with no improvement in hardware other than software updates. Then, they add an additional circuit board and charge $$$ for the same case. Brilliant marketing!! BTW, I don't care for DCS; it presents as very sterile and non-musical.
@ripordaffawesome room man! With that said, those chairs blocking the speakers are a potential problem. That could be contributing to why you don’t hear the difference in DACs. But the main reason is you’re not giving yourself enough time to acclimate with dcs before you switch back to DA2.
Also, and this will probably ruffle some feathers, that McIntosh amp is not on the level of your speakers. You’re not realizing the full potential of the Focals. Amplifier is an extremely close second in contributing to the final presentation to the speakers, if not as equally important.
My Dad has a 8950 with DA2 card and it sounds great will USB, Coax, eArc...no need for optical in his setup.
It's all in the implementation. Look how many DACs use the ESS chip that is in many devices, Mac uses 8 of them. That DAC is no slouch.
My Cyrus Amp uses the same chip and I think it sounds really good with its internal DAC, I sold my RME dac that I had planned on using with it. The internal DAC is that good.
The Eversolo A6 uses the same chip I believe or something really close. Sounds good through it's XLR and RCA but sounded a lot better connected to the two amps mentioned above via digital.
I just added a SMSL SU-X to my ma352 today. It was only 1k and measures better than most other DACs so I said why not, if it’s a dud I didn’t risk too much money relatively speaking. Well, using the Node as a streamer, I got amazing performance out of it, and I say the sound quality increased at least over 20 percent than using the Node alone. I am running SF Olympica 2 speakers.
Also, I’m running XLR audio cables from Amazon, they made a significant improvement also. These no-name, cheap Chinese audio companies are seriously holding their own. This SMSL SU-X sounds better than a 4k Wandla set up , and the SU-X even has a tube mode. Using tube mode, with my integrated tube amp, and SF speakers, I am in total audio bliss now. So satisfied. Thank you SMSL for not ripping us off and giving us world class performance!
I have got the MolaMola Tambaqui and the Meitner MA3. I have sold them both when I heard the DA2 in a (now my) C2700.
Either the DA2 module is just simply phenomenal or McIntosh preamps and integrated amps homogenize the sound due to lack of transparency to such degree that all DACs connected to the McIntosh components sound the same. I’m starting to suspect it’s the latter. If your preference is for this kind of approach and you’re satisfied, good for you!
I've never heard anything from DCS, But I have a C2700 preamp with the DAC2 board in it feeding Mac mono blocks. I also have/had a Chord Dave in my system. What I can say is the Mac DAC2 is better then many may think for the money. It punches well up into the much more expensive DAC range. But the Dave did show its limitations quite easily. The Dave has much better resolution, separation of instruments and bigger, wider, deeper sound stage. Its quite apparent when switching between the two. doesn't take an audiophile to notice.
If the DCS is not apparent from the start its just not that good IMO. Regardless of price at the levels we are talking if its not immediately apparent send the DSC back its just not worth what they are asking IMO. DCS has fallen back on their laurels in recent years from what I read, in my limited opinion of course.
Last note; new mac sound is not old mac sound, its not warm and mushy as people seem to think, and have commented on.
If you think about signal-to-noise ratio as a proxy for how resolving a piece of equipment is - recognizing that this may be an oversimplification, but useful nonetheless - then the attached HiFi News review might provide insight:
Notice in the lab reports section that while the A-weighted SNR of the DAC2 is 111 db, the SNR of the amp is only 87.4 db. So while the SNR of the Bartok Apex is about 117 db, I think, consistent with what some others have suggested, the Amp may not be sufficiently resolving for you to hear much of a difference. For the record, I do not believe all you need to know about a DAC or amp is SNR - don’t want to get flamed! - but it is a very helpful data point, particularly when we talk about low noise floors, highly resolving dacs and amps, etc.
@mdalton having just read that review I’m not sure where that amp SNR is coming from. The MA9500 specs read as 114db for the amp SNR. What am I missing?
@mdaltonI saw that in the review but I don’t see those numbers reflected in McIntosh’s specs, I see 114db for the amp. Just not sure where the reviewers are getting their numbers.
Paul Miller of HiFi News is one of the most respected people in the industry. Has been doing measurements on gear on his custom modified test equipment for years. His stuff is by far the most reliable and consistent in my experience. You should reach out to him if you want to understand better. I am not an expert, but I wonder if the manufacturer publishing the SNR “at input” isn’t actually giving you their estimate of the DAC SNR. Regardless, when comparing across different brands, always best to use reliable 3rd party estimates so you’re seeing apples to apples.
I love your room. Do you allow people to bring red wine into this room?
I like amplifiers from McIntosh but don’t like any of their processors. They don’t like selling tube line stages without phono stage for some reason. They cram so much stuff into these processors and integrated components. You don’t know what you’re getting..
If you’re playing around with an expensive Bartok component I would consider getting a nice line stage preamp to use within your system. And then you can do all kinds of component comparisons without worrying about contamination from some crazy integrated processor. I use an av processor from nad with a line stage added on top of it for 2 Channel listening.
Also the streamer being used may not be the greatest in the scheme of things and I saw a comment up top it could be a serious bottleneck basically negating anything of quality that gets involved with it. Although streamer may be perfectly great I don’t know. I use a lumin X 1 streamer dac which I find ideal because I hate dealing with separate dacs all the connectivity issues that goes along with it. lumin does a great job incorporating these things together and it's got a separate power box which always is a turn on
Interesting observation! My DA2 is in my C2700. I also have an Aries Cerat Helene DAC in the mix. The AC is leaps and bounds better than the DA2, but I wouldn't have sought much more if I had never heard the AC in the system. I know this sounds paradoxical, but the DA2 is just that good!
@mdaltonthats certainly an impressive resume. I don’t discount his findings I just don’t know how to reconcile his measurements with the specs from McIntosh. They might not be the same thing. I certainly don’t have the background nor have I read enough on my own to know any differences. Thanks for the link though it was an interesting read. And sorry OP for hijacking your thread.
pretty sure my theory is right (it’s the DAC spec). look at Mcintosh-provided specs on MA252, which doesn’t have a DAC. There, for “SNR -Power Amp Input” they show an “N/A”. Regardless, you don’t really need - or want - to reconcile the two. As i said, a reliable 3rd party allows you to compare across brands, and is probably more likely to be accurate, for obvious reasons.
@jeffreyw I wouldn’t doubt you for a second. However I’ve owned preamps and amps of various degrees of transparency and I’ve heard it first hand how an amp or preamp can diminish the differences between changes in upstream components or cables. Anything is possible in this hobby. All part of the fun!
Look at the $7400 T+A 200 dac that is pretty much the standard under $12k
land personally think it sounds more natural then the Bartok Apex which I heard side by side ,Yes better the the Holo springs May dac,,as well as Terminator+
and mola mola. That’s how good it is and even has a very good Analog resistive
ladder preamp. The T+A200 dac is a Best Buy , check out the Many reviews
then get a dealer to send you one ,and you can get close to $1k off if you shop around ,and Has HQ player built into the architecture.
I’m setting up my high end system this weekend and trying to get it to work w the furniture (ugh) in the room. I know not context of your string but your room looks so cool, that I thought I’d ask.
Q what is distance between your Focal speakers and what is distance to where you sit?
Q Did you move either around or out of room for that set up?
Q Is it adventagous to not have furniture in corners? I’ve got a chair in each for extra sitting.
@verdantaudio - Good suggestion, but the Bartok is actually serving as both streamer (through Tidal Direct) as well as DAC. So it’s really Wiim & DA2 vs Bartok.
Well, you could pack up the Bartok, ship it back to Bartok's maker within the return window and get your 20k back.
Tell him....."It's not you, it's me....I need a li'l time, a li'l space just to find myself y'know..."
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