Charging A Fee To Demo An Amplifier In A Brick & Mortar Store

A misconception here is that these are $60K amps. They are NOT! They’re $17K used amps with about 800 hours on them. It’s doubtful that anyone would tire kick these and go buy them elsewhere given the huge discount which, in and of itself, would give me pause in considering them. A B&M seller who charges for an in-store demo simply can’t compete with his internet colleagues ... and it is obvious to me that he knows it.

Yes in my serious search for an amp or amps to replace my Ayre, I have auditioned both the 650
and 750. They are sonic wonders w right speakers and imo a tube salesman dream. New with zero hours, home setup, etc they are in the realm of coin Sunil is talking - obviously less demo or used. Let’s be clear, a pair of these are exotic and not inexpensive- do some research on this family of amplifiers and ARC design philosophy and you will understand- minimal fusing - parts on the board are the fuses.... so this ain’t a deep market product. Now ( lots of years managing a 6 + high end showroom store ) if any of us are honest there are tire kickers. The guy here has a name, it’s Sunil - I don’t know him super well. Like all humans, he has his fans and detractors.  Btw that  price is right in line with values for the 650 when I was looking. Magic if you can stand the heat, tube bills and like soldering now and then...

Jim

One thing to consider, with 800 hours on the tubes, its going to cost a few grand to retube the units if you buy them from ARC.   I think why they have been sitting for so long is huge the price to retube them when it is needed.  It is a BIG expense.  I hope you live in Alaska or Siberia as those amps will probably keep your house hot year round.

I was also fortunate to run a high end store w no commission sales team...

when a customer came in and after asking them “
how can I help “? Sometimes they would reply “ no, I am just looking “
I always said in reply “ when I go to the bookstore I tell them no thank you I am just listening “

tended to break the ice, music was next !!!!

Just to be clear, the $500 gets you a store credit that can be used towards anything else the retailer offers.  Quite often when I visit an audio retailer and audition something, I typically purchase an album or 2 as a way to show my support and appreciation for their time.  

Also our local Porsche dealer required a signed purchase agreement to drive the big HP turbos.... wishing I could get one for $17 k.... tubes or not :-))))

For one the guy is a jerk for charging and just reduced his chances of selling by st least 50%.  I sold audio for years ,never a charge .
what is the $$ amount out of curiosity ?

Yeah -  fuggedaboutit

WOW ! This is amazing. To make things clear this is a $60,000.00 pair of Amplifiers. This has been put into storage. We have to setup a complete vignette and connect everything. This is the reason we asked the customer who was interested to call us. We could set them up with Vandersteen, Vivid Audio, Martin Logan, Stenheim, Egglestonworks etc. To do this custom for a proper audition that makes sense, we need to be compensated. Simple as that. Hope this makes this clear.

Then you are in the wrong business. 

Had a dealer wanting to charge me $500.00 to audition a Mac 275 in my home. That's why I've still never heard one.

A good move, businessmen also have to survive in e-commerce world. A nominal fee per hour is welcome both customer & industry doesn't feel guilty. Everything costs to run demo in a business.

this is a joke! He owns a store and has the amps packed up already. The pic shows the amps out in a system, he should leave them hooked up to attract potential buyers.
Can you imagine if car dealers would charge for a demo run? They have to do more sanitizing than an amp would require.
Run, don't walk away from this place

As a consumer, I would expect the seller to demonstrate that the units actually work. At his expense.  If I purchased them untested, lugged them home to discover something was wrong then have to return them, is the seller going to compensate me for my time?  I think not.

We need to be compensated. Simple as that. Hope this makes this clear.

What a crock of ****, wait till he gets there, if he seems legit (a good salesman can tell).
Then set the amps up on a system that’s all ready up and running.
 Charging to do this is doesn't do your credibility any favors.

Cheers George

When I created this post, I was truly curious if high end stores were now charging for an in-store demo. I’d never before heard of such a thing.
I had no intention of being critical of the seller...I just wanted to know if this was now a widespread and common practice in high end audio. Had I’d walked into a hifi shop unaware of this practice and a guy told me there’s a $500 fee for an audition, I would’ve been offended and felt insulted. Now that I’m aware of it, I can choose to walk in their doors or not.

I love Audio Research preamps. I’ve owned several of them and I think they are amazing. I’ve always wondered if their tube amps are as good as their preamps.

I own two pairs of Pass Labs monoblocks that I’m thoroughly satisfied with. I’ve been member of Audiogon for 20 years. Without fail, year in and year out I keep hearing about the magic of tube amplifiers from members of this forum. I’d never entertain the thought of paying $60k for an amplifier...however, if the price was right on a pre-owned pair, I’d consider a change if the tube amps were all they were cracked up to be. 

The amps are now priced at $17k.

I’ve also had the same curiosity about high powered Class-A monoblocs.
I periodically peruse Audiogon to see if these megabuck amps have fallen into my price range. Well, the current monoblocks are in my price range. However, I don’t need any amplifiers....but if I can be convinced by proof of listening that these monoblocks in question are head and shoulders above what I currently have, I’d certainly entertain the thought of purchasing them. I could sell my current amps to absorb part of the purchase price.

This seller is asking $500 for an in-store demo.

If that’s his business policy, I have no quarrel with that. But I do have a choice whether or not to go along with it.

These amps for sale have no warranty.

My current system is here:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/876

I see zero issue with that assuming the fee is reasonable and can be used towards store credit. Don’t tubes have a finite life? Smart guy. Separates the buyers from the pikers.  

It was suggested that this is equivalent to a restocking fee; I disagree.  If I buy equipment from Schiit or Tekton and I don't like it I have to send it back, probably pay shipping both ways, and pay a restocking fee.  But ... I have auditioned the equipment for 15 days in my home, in my system.  That is very different from an audition in the dealer's room, with the dealer's equipment.  

I have been to this store 3 times and it is one of my favourites in Los Angeles. They have amazing gear and were very pleasant to deal with. I demoed 2 speakers there the first time I went. Sunil wanted me to hear a much more expensive Wilson Alexa setup just to hear what was possible. He knew I was not able to buy anything that day.  I left with a good opinion.

The other 2 times I went, it was during presentations done with the Los Angeles Audio Society. Again great events with a lot of attendees.

I am buying gear now and I always check to see if they have any gear that I could buy because of the nice way they have treated me. Brooks Berdan and Excel Audio are 2 others that treated me great. Going to be spreading my dollars to these 3 dealers.

I actually have not gone to demo some gear because I was not ready to buy. I would have gone if I could have paid a fee. I know the issues BM  stores are facing.

Perhaps the seller is trying to recoup the electricity cost of turning the amps on 😂

mitch4t,

My current system is here:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/876

Nice system, no doubt about it, but what launches it into different galaxy is your tuner. Hats off.

I have bought items from this dealer and he was always respectful and gave me a great price. Most of the items he carries are way out of my price range but he genuinely tries to accommodate my needs as best as he can.

Glubson....luck was with you that you didn't get involved with Mitsubishi...

stringreen,

You are certainly right, but that was the only car around I could fit in, had a trunk, and could hold the road as good as any (Evo, I think it was IX but may be wrong about it as it was a while back).

Had I’d walked into a hifi shop unaware of this practice and a guy told me there’s a $500 fee for an audition, I would’ve been offended and felt insulted.

Let’s be honest. The OP did not walk into a dealer and ask to listen to some gear on display. It has been said more than once that these amps are boxed up and in storage. These amps weigh 170 lbs each. They have 16 power tubes each that need to be biased.

Does anyone really expect to walk into a store and tell the owner that he would like to give the amps in storage a listen because he’s never heard them, and he might be interested, and then expect the owner to say sure, come back tomorrow because it’s going to take me a few hours to get them out and set them up? Really?

I’m sure you can go to Sunny Audio and listen to the gear on display for free, even if you’re obviously not a serious buyer. 

I would love to see all you outraged people open up an audio shop. I’d love to come and talk audio with you and do some listening, maybe 2 or 3 times a week. Of course you’d be cool with that, right?

"... walk into a store and tell the owner that he would like to give the amps in storage a listen because he’s never heard them, and he might be interested, and then expect the owner to say sure, come back tomorrow because it’s going to take me a few hours to get them out and set them up?"

That is exactly my experience when looking for a bicycle. Except that the salespeople insisted on doing it and I was trying to dissuade them.

tomyc6,


When I think of the hoops sales people have done to sell me $17,000 of equipment in the past (and me to others), what you describe really does not sound excessive since quite frankly, that is the job.

glupson, You don’t think there’s a difference between getting a bike out from the back and setting up a system with a couple of 170 lb amps?

dannad, Some details, please. Where and when did you request to see a couple of 170 lb used amps in storage that were being sold online and the owner spent the next few hours getting them out and setting them up for you?

Look, given the size and cost of those amps, the dealer should have them set up already for demo. If he can't because of space considerations, then he shouldn't have them in the first place. Certainly, he knew or had reason to know, whether he bought them from ARC directly or took them in on trade, that these could be difficult to demo/sell and that they would take up floor space in the store. It's the dealer's fault for failing to anticipate this in the first place, and customers should not have to pay to "hear" his mistake.

Most dealers do not sell trade in gear in their stores.  They sell it online.  The store is for selling new gear.

You guys have never tried running a retail store, have you?

It’s even worse if he bought those amps directly from ARC, and didn’t think through the impact they could have on his space. He now has realized that he can’t sell them quickly, so he’s put them in storage and is trying a fire sale, but the customer must pay for the demo. It’s ridiculous. The dealer made a big mistake, but the customer shouldn’t have to absorb that cost. Additionally, if the customer forks over the $500 and doesn’t dig the amps, then he is left with a store credit which may be useless to him/her currently or at all. That’s ice in winter.

The demo fee reminds me of an old Marx Brothers line:  "do you suppose I can buy back my introduction to you?"
Thom @ Galibier Design

I know a dealer who does this, but is is for dedicated 1:1 off-hours listening sessions, with drinks, etc. Listening during regular hour is free.

I would happily pay a fee for a demo.

When I want something, I want a good deal.  No stupid prices.  I’ll contact a load of dealers & buy.   It irks me that I’m expected to pay for tyre kickers who waste hours of dealers time & never buy!

I would never have a free demo, then go elsewhere for the best price.  That’s not cool at all.

I’d much rather pay 20-30 quid for an hour, then I’m not beholden to that dealer.   I can tell him straight what I want to pay & that I’ll be shopping round.
He’s has something for his time.   Everyone’s a winner!
The only losers are the pests who waste dealer’s time.

What a pig dealer.  Their markup is at least 25% for consignment, 40% on new.  Just greedy.   I will remember the Sunny name and keep it on my list of dealers to avoid.  If I was ARC I would cancel them as a dealer also - leaves a bad taste in my mouth that they have a dealer like this.  $500 to listen?  My son just went to the Wilson dealer in Scottsdale, he told them he had no money to buy but wanted to hear the Chromosonics, the dealer spent the afternoon with him, knowing he could not afford any of these systems - I won't forget that either.  I am completely spoiled by my dealer.  The subpar dealers must congregate in California.

Never heard of that before----sounds like a scam to me. 

@smer319  still hasn't said how much the fee is/was.  Why such reluctance?  Note he never got back to OP (see beginning of this thread).

Don't walk, RUN.  They should be developing a relationship with you.  It is not your first purchase that counts.  It is the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on.  It is important to develop a relationship, a rapport, and trust with your dealer.  That is not accomplished by charging you for a demo.

" still hasn't said how much the fee is/was. Why such reluctance? Note he never got back to OP (see beginning of this thread) "
The dealer responded on 8/30 within the question/answer section of the listing "probably $500" .

I have no skin in this game, not a customer, not an employee but calling the dealer a "pig dealer", the transaction a "scam" seems a bit much. It's his business and if he feels like a demo fee is necessary in this case that's his call, he isn't twisting your arm to come in,  and I expect he understands the risk of selling under that term.

 What is happening is that consumers to a store and spend a lot of time talking to store staff asking questions and listening. Then the customer goes and buys online at a discounted price. The store online does not have the overhead an staff costs the brick and mortar store has. If you are a serious customer then you shouldn't have an issue paying to demo. More and more stores are charging to demo because of the online competitive problem. Brick and mortar stores simply have way more cost to absorb.

The fee is to pay his chiropractor after having to schlep around those damn heavy amps!  Although if his chiropractor visit is $500, he ought to seek another chiropractor!

The time wasted on people that don't buy is included in the markup and always has been with stores.   With todays online shopping, these sales people need to make themselves valuable and show why you buy a high price item locally.  

"Then the customer goes and buys online at a discounted price."

Is the dealer allowed to sell new Audio Research equipment online? I know that some brands have restrictions, but I am not sure about Audio Research.

For old and used equipment, I guess anything goes.

tomcy6,

"glupson, You don’t think there’s a difference between getting a bike out from the back and setting up a system with a couple of 170 lb amps?"

I was just pointing out different approaches in enticing a potential buyer.

To answer your question, those bicycles I mentioned were driven from the warehouse, assembled, adjusted to perfection, and then I could take a ride and say "doesn't feel quite right". Setting up a bicycle right, even on a very casual amateur rider level, does require some work. To the extreme of having ten mechanics in a competition team.

I have no problem with this particular dealer charging whatever he thinks is right. Still, I remember one member here who at some point (in another thread) said "your first loss was your best loss". Waiting for the right customer to show up may be a losing game, but I really have no experience with running a store. That storage must cost something. I would really think of keeping those amplifiers as an eternal demo rather than losing money and time on tire kickers and giving it away for only $16995.

If those are the amplifiers on the top of your list, and the price is fair market, I myself would pay a reasonably demo fee. If you don't like their performance, you get them crossed off the list, and just buy something from him for the cost of the fee. Otherwise, you can purchase them with no risk of shipping, damage etc. Pack those monsters in your car and go enjoy.

What I think this shows is the erosion of the function of B&M stores.  Before the internet, that's where you went to see, check out, and hear (!! what a concept) equipment.  If you liked what you heard, you started to think you might buy it, and made a couple more trips back.
These days, it's much more probable it will sell over the internet.  The B&M space is essentially functioning as a warehouse/shipping center.  If this merchant wants to maintain the impression of a real B&M store, a customer should be able to come in, look around, and check out anything.  That's part of the cost of doing business.  

Time to find a new dealer!

Retailers are able to behave as they please ,no surprises there.Product sales require advertising and customers.For every tire kicker that comes in he will tell 20 other potential customers.Putting a fee in front of it limits the number of potential customers as demonstrated by the reaction here.Not really smart business.As for the issue of setting up said product Im curious as to what the retailer thinks his role is.Surely setting up products for demonstration is part of his work duties.

I was looking to buy new speakers in the $8k-$12k range a few years back.  A local dealer had a brand which interested me.  I dropped into the store, and the dealer let me listen to a pair of bookshelf speakers by the brand I was interested in.  I like them, but wanted to try out the brand's floorstanders.  I made an appointment for a few days later, and spent a hour or so listening to the floorstanders.  I liked both, but wanted to try at least one of the pairs at home.  I told them that as long as the speakers sounded good at home, I would buy one of the pairs.  The dealer wanted $500 to allow me to take the bookshelf speaker home.  I had to transport and setup.  About half of the $500 was non-refundable.

I balked.  As a long shot, I then called a distributor that carried another brand I was interested in.  He agreed to ship a pair of large floorstanders from St. Louis to SF Area at the same time one of his dealers in Austin was going to be on vacation in SF.  If I didn't like the speakers, I had to pay for return shipping.  The dealer set the speakers up, we listen to music for about 3 hours, had a couple beers.  I really loved the speakers, and bought them.

I would've never called the distributor if I could've auditioned the local pair at home.  Sale lost.  I'm sure the local dealer thinks that I was just a time-waster.

I don't think the fee has anything to do with the setup time required.  Heck, they were setup for the purpose of advertising pictures and getting a sale.  Most people interested in purchases in this price range or better are not likely tire kickers.  The fee does help put pressure on the buyer however to make the purchase rather than lose the fee or use it for something they do not need.

I am puzzled by the majority of the responses. I remember prior to Audiogon and the other"High End" Audio sites you would go to the dealer.
In my travels Mid 1980"s I would look up Stereophonic in the local yellow pages and visit the store. If I found a product I was interested in based on the reviews from various audio magazines I would ask If they would demo the product. I can’t remember when I was refused a demo. Fast forward 2020.......
A friend of mine works in one of the stores that is still in business. He doesn’t own the store he is an employee. He has worked very hard over the past 23 years.
As the online used market grew he has given in store and in home demos countless number of times. He has educated potential customers that have walked away and bought the products online. That training has allowed him to Identify the tire kickers.
We all know the difference between a retail pair of $30,000 mono blocks compared to a slightly used pair.
This is a fantastic hobby that I have enjoyed during my life time. This forum is a great space to research and I would like to thank everyone for their contribution.

If the dealer wants to charge its up to him. You can always take your business elsewhere.
This is a no brainer...... Enjoy.