Maybe they could give you a 10 year trial and call it good.
Actually, if this gear is that great they might let you try it for 30 days at home before making the purchase. |
I live in metropolitan Phoenix and I usually go to a dealer when looking for new components every couple of years . I never get charged with a demo fee here. I usually read reviews of the equipment I am interested in buying and then listen to it connected to the dealer's system. I don't expect the sound to be the same but I do ask for current issues if any about the product I am buying. He always let me listen to his current components on demo which usually last an hour or so . We talk about my audio system but my dealer always shows me a similar component if he has one that I can exchange if the component does not perform sonically and even lends me his burned in cables to use . If I like how he treats me at the demo session , I usually come back to buy other items and he usually calls me if he gets an excellent high end component as a trade in.
The only reason I would pay a demo fee is if he brings the equipment I am interested in buying to my house, sets it up, and let me listen to it for a few days and decide I don't like how they sound. |
This dealer has previously been mentioned in posts as one to avoid so stay away. |
How about some qualifying conversations before a demo of this sort? Is the buyer SERIOUS enough that he is going to buy them if they work properly? I am not a tube guy, so I don't know how much the "work properly" definition impacts the decision. If they are used and the performance is a big variable, I don't think there should be a charge, if the buyer is serious.
If I was ever (probably not) going to consider amps for $17K, I would want to hear them in my room in my system, and if they want to charge a reasonable fee for that, I'd probably do it. I bought an arm from a dealer who said buy it, take it home and see if you like it, and if not, return it within 30 days and get your money back. THAT is confidence in a product. It blew me away the difference. He knew my system and turntable and knew the difference it would make.
Are there really people out there who want to spend 3-4 hours listening in a store for the hell of it? BTW may car companies pay people to come in and take a test drive with no obligation whatsoever.
Every dealer I've ever dealt with has their own idiosyncrasies. Some refuse to touch used gear, some low ball trades, others will sell your stuff for you with a small commission, others want to charge huge commissions. Some discount, others refuse. Some are rude, and some are warm and fuzzy. Haven't found the perfect one yet. I spent a few grand on a pair of speakers with a guy who did a nice job unloading my old gear on consignment (especially these days), I thought he could be "the guy", and then he wouldn't take a $30 accessory back that didn't work the way they said it would because their policy is they don't take accessory returns at any time. I was shocked.
If you can deal with the manufacturer, you are much better off, because they want their customers to be happy. I was surprised that some will deal direct. I won't name one you surely know, but they are a household name. It helps to be within driving distance. |
Sounds like this dealer is collecting a restocking fee, up front. |
I worked in a High End audio store in Santa Barbara 40 years ago and we were always playing music in one of our rooms! If someone wanted to hear our best stuff we loved it ourselves and enjoyed the time! That was the best part, everybody was having fun kicked back cranking tunes! We sold a lot of product! Oh the good old days!
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I tried to nuy a used 911 turbo early this year and they wanted to run credit and get a deal hashed out before a test drive. I drove 300 miles to see the car but they do that to weed out joy rides. Is this coming to high end audio?
I worked in a high end store in NY in the 1990's and we would spend a lot of time taking amps or speakers to a prospective buyers house that never was compensated.
I would actually pay for an in home demo myself but not an in store demo. |
Fifty years ago, I worked for an audio retailer. Wow, how times change?
Today? I am in a pivotal role at a major global enterprise online service.
My professional attitude is that IF a product or service can be bought online, it SHOULD be bought online. From a professional point of view it is great that Brick & Mortars are charging, because that pushes more business to online enterprises where returns are a fact of life and not a big deal.
My audiophile attitude is that charging by Brick & Mortars gives me grief, because it is a straw on the camel’s back and a death knoll for their style of doing business. It places them on a danger of extinction list. That makes me sad.
Currently, I live in an area of the world, where there is only one High-End shop in the region, despite being the greatest concentration of post-graduate degree education and technology in the country. I always found that strange . . . very strange indeed. The focus appears more on quantity, than quality. Odd that.
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To johnto; Have yo rver worked in retail? Not everyone who walks in is going to buy! No reputable dealer would charge for an audition.
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I don’t have a ’dog in the fight’ here, but I surely understand why this is done. Back in the day, when you asked for a sales rep’s time, there was a ’gentleman’s agreement’ that you’d buy from them if the item is what you wanted. Perhaps the explosion of online buying coupled with an entitlement mentality and degradation of what others are worth causes many of us to forget that. Case Study: Years ago (Circa 1990’s) a friend of mine discovered a little store in Northern NJ that specialized in GPS hardware and software. "Come check this place out!" he said. "They have a great selection, the staff is really knowledgeable and they’re great with service when you have questions." About six months later, he was in the market for a new Garmin, and he went to the store, burned a lot of their time, and bought from the local catalog warehouse because the price was cheaper. Some time after that he was ready to upgrade again, went to the store, and was astounded to discover they went out of business. Go figure. If you don’t want to pay for professionalism, be prepared to get what you pay for. Everybody wants good service and knowledgeable, professional salespeople, but that costs money. You don’t work for free, and they shouldn’t either.
"If I was a serious buyer I’d feel offended but there are so many tire kickers who have no intention of buying. If a reasonable fee was posted for like a 30 minute demo there is equipment I wouldn’t mind paying to hear. I don’t think it’s fair to take someone’s time if I know I’m not buying. THIS. I'm not saying I agree with his policy, but I completely understand the reasons for it. |
Is there no really good customer service anymore? The place that I buy from always gladly offers to put you in a listing room and ask if you want them to stick around for any help or questions if not they says take your time and if you need anything just let me know.
If I was asked to pay for a demo I would walk out faster than I came in but thats just me. |
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What’s the big deal?
Rare book dealers used to have "back rooms." The farther back, the pricier the books. Supposedly, one famous dealer in London had FIVE back rooms--and in the fifth was a Gutenberg Bible. To "earn" your way back to see the more expensive books you had to demonstrate that you had the wherewithal to buy them. If you never bought any books in the first room, you wouldn’t be invited into the second, and so on.
In other words, only CUSTOMERS were invited to see the good stuff.
Similarly, when I tried to test drive a Honda S2000 back when they were new, the dealer declined to let me. Reason? He was getting inundated with requests for test drives with very few buyers. Why let yahoos put miles on your sports car when it’s just going to be a problem for whomever does buy the thing?
Plus, I didn’t have the money for a Honda S2000 and the dealer probably knew that. I was just a car buff who wanted to try the thing out.
Sounds to me like the OP had simply not qualified himself as a potential buyer of $17k amps. I'll bet if he had already bought a few choice items from that dealer, the dealer wouldn't have blinked at his request to demo the amps.
"Move along, nothing to see here!"
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That dealers is a real turkey baste him. |
OP, perhaps the dealer will throw in a foot massage and a bottle of single malt while you listen. |
Dealers are actively trying to find solutions for showrooming. Showrooming is very common now and accepted as a normal mode of shopping. You experience the product at the brick and mortar and then buy it at the cheapest price you can find on the internet. The choice then becomes to do the "hard sell" when you are there or to find a way to offer full service, allow you to take time auditioning, and be cordial because their valuable time is covered whether you buy or not. Many times customers decide on a product and then go down the street to fall for the other option. You get a "deal" from dealers that sell products that are already marked up to then mark them down and make you think you are getting a deal. Many customers buy a product they didn't really want because you get 30% off which seems to be the tipping point. Mark up product 30% so you can mark them down and sell something that is not a long-term solution. Buyer beware when you are offered 25% to 30%. Real dealers and honestly priced products cannot survive this way.
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If you really want those amps and the store has opening hours, bring cash ! It has never failed me, if you take out a big enough stack you will get your demo for free, and if you tell the owner of the store you don’t need a recipe for the full amount you can probably walk out of there with the amps for 15K. This works with cars too. |
Well theres your snswer.... its s CA dealer 🤦♂️ |
I spoke with this retailer sometime ago regarding a different item and decided not to deal with them because he seemed very dubious. |
Tubes have a short lifespan. Suck it up if you want to lower the time left on them. This is why you do not buy tubes.
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First of all, I’ve never seen a dealer ask for a payment to demo equipment. I have a local dealer who brought in new Usher speakers for me to demo that he didn’t carry before. He also brought Revel Studio2 speakers over to my place for an in-home demo, which I ended up buying.
in terms of this dealer, I’d negotiate a deal where you agree to pay $500 for an in-home demo for a $500 reduction in the sales price, and the demo fee can be either applied to that reduced cost if you buy or a store credit for something else. If the dealer thinks you are serious he may be willing to do this. If you buy, he gets rid of this used inventory and you get a deal. If you don’t buy, he gets compensated for his time. |
There is a lot of confusion on this topic.
What we offered was setting up a system for a customer. He chooses his speakers from our store ( About 15 pair in stock on the floor, he chooses his pre-amp and source. Then we put the system together for him. This system would be placed on a HRS audio stand. This means breaking several high end systems so the customer who obviously understands this and can then create a reference point. We would also use the best cables we have to built this system. This is at least a 8 hour job. We dont want to go through the trouble without it being a serious customer. Simple. You have the option to just buy the amplifiers like any other product or purchase retail priced products that are already on demonstration which carries no charge. Simple. If you want bargain discontinued products we just have to charge for this service. there is NO PROFIT on this at all.
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@smer319 ... I disagree completely. You’re making the guy pay for a demo in YOUR listening room with YOUR equipment and YOUR cables, most or all of which are different from that of the customer. So, even if the customer digs the sound, that’s likely NOT what he’s going to hear at home. If you were setting up the demo in the customer’s house, then charging to do so would be acceptable. However, that’s NOT what’s happening here. Bottom line ... you made a mistake with those amps, can’t keep them out for demos, took a bath on them, and are now trying to make back some $$ at the expense of any customer who might want an audition. I would hope that reasonable people would decline your "generous" demo offer and look elsewhere. |
No Way. I'd pay more to someone else first just to keep the money out of their pockets. I don't buy homes or cars like that and won't pay for someone to do their jobs. They also miss out on future purchases. I know it's not my name on their license, but I refuse to ever pay a fee. |
«Similarly, when I tried to test drive a Honda S2000 back when they were new, the dealer declined to let me. Reason? He was getting inundated with requests for test drives with very few buyers. »- DualMarantz
The same thing happened to me!
Since I anticipated it, I showed to the unfriendly rep my NSX key and said: If you think I do not qualify for a S2000!
Would have never bought from him, and this seller made a mistake because I bought one later ...
Regarding OP situation, I concur that nowadays it is difficult for B&M businesses, but it is part of their job to spend time promoting and trying to sell what they have to offer.
Obviously, I would consider as serious a guy who owns Pass Labs gear and shows interest in tubes monoblocks and would not try to put unnecessary and unfriendly obstacles in the process ...
For those saying that he will buy elsewhere online, we are not talking about common pieces of hifi gear ...
I would not pay that 500$ fee, customer is king, I would even convince him, after an in store listening, to try them at home, and for free!
You want to sell them? Well, you’ll have to work and convince me.
You don’t want to take this route, you only want to make a quick and easy sale and wait for your sucker? Then you will have to accept a nice discount over your asking price !!!
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Such first world problems. How ever will the human race survive? |
"This is at least a 8 hour job." How long does it take for those amplifiers to be assembled in the factory? |
"...there is NO PROFIT on this at all." Raise the price. $40 000 and no whining. |
Only key piece of information:
"These are packed and put away. Can you tell me what kind of system would you want it demonstrated with ? Please call the store...Probably $500.00 which will be applied to purchase price of $16995.00"
Translation: My overdue electric bill is about $500.....
The dealer tried to justify this expense/charge by stating that time was involved in setting up a system for the demo of these amps. THAT IS WHAT A DEALER DOES ! THAT IS THE REASON WHY B/M SHOPS ARE DIFFERENT THAN ONLINE SELLERS ! Dealers and B/M shops are expected to provide a higher and different level of service than an online vendor. If a DEALER is unwilling to provide these services, or is oblivious to the need to do so, then the Dealer should find another line of work.
20+yrs ago I encountered a "by appointment only" dealer who tried to extract a demo charge before setting an appointment. The dealer had several pieces I was interested in, and the price points were acceptable to me. My reply was laughter. I found another area dealer who had the same items, at roughly the same price points, and I purchased what I wanted to purchase. No charge to demo, or set an appointment, or walk into the store. I later went back to the offending dealer and showed him a copy of my receipt as evidence of my purchases. He was not happy. I quietly explained that I would have done business with him, but found his demo charge to be offensive. I then found a more accommodating dealer who received my business. Offending dealer went out of business within 12mos of my interactions with him.
The market always wins. |
OK, katzenjammers, I apologize upfront if this gets pedantic, but I’m thinking from experience here and it’s kinda up my alley. Back in the golden years (1970-1990) I benefitted from all the yuppies-coming-of-age (I was one) and the simultaneous rise of audio/video toys in everyday life. It was fine! I actually made a decent living selling expensive stereo in a nice store to nice people. Think of it! In all that time, I NEVER asked for a demo fee. I can see scheduling appointments to audition a system, but what the hell am I there for? I was general store manager in 4 major stores spanning both coasts and fly-over country. OMG! I worked the floor at Harvey’s in midtown Manhattan. 5th Ave. Hundreds of what salespeople call “strokers” AND buyers flooded in at lunchtime. Heaven on retail earth! But I would never ask for a demo fee. New Yorkers can get emotional. I remember helping Stevie Wonder one day in LA. I think he had come in to see the owner about his Christmas presents. Remember the Sony D-20 disc-man? They were out for the holidays and he bought about 300 to give to his close friends. I talked him through the Tandberg stack (he had an older one in his bed) and he listened to some Stax. Previously, one of our guys had built him a fourposter bed with 4 KEF 105 mid/tweeter posts and a big sub under the bed. Can’t imagine why. Every one of those freaking Sony’s came back defective! First run! And it had to be practically a no-profit deal to begin with. I digress. But I didn’t ask Stevie for a demo fee.
Let me repeat myself: Brick and Mortar Retail Audio is DEAD! Deceased! A Goner! Look at that sellers AG page. He has huge sums tied up in incredibly slow moving gear AND a showroom in West Covina! West Covina is LA expensive but a Lifetime Away from the big money in LA. This guy is under tremendous pressure even in normal times and now all this? But I wonder: - Great demo music should be on ALWAYS in that store.
- All that gear should be left on all the time anyway. Is it so hard to turn up a volume knob?
- If I buy it online, without a demo, do I get another $500 off?
- In another post somewhere I described the malaise that infects most retail salespersons who are caught in a downward spiral—of the economy, the dealer, their own income. When they begin to crack under the pressure, they can come to work with a negative mindset that just becomes further aggravated by strokers. It really is “retail burnout.” Friend of revolving doors everywhere. Ask anyone with more than 10 years selling anything retail.
- Eventually, surviving retailers will realize that commissioned salespeople are not happy EVER! The owner figures that’s motivation—and it is when there’s traffic in the store. But when times are lean, like now, it’s too important to keep good sales staff happy. Pay them! They’re guarding your big investment! And SAD BAD!
- Train, train, train. Not at 8AM Saturday! Train at night, after closing, with plenty of beverages! Air it out!
If I had the ability to buy those amps, I’d sure rather be dealing with a professional—given the choice. In fact, I would fly to Covina, listen to the amps, and bring them back with me. Crap! Those used amps are worth as much as the house I bought in the 70s with all that loot I got off nascent boomers. |
Never heard of charging for in store demos. While I see the rationale for the charge, kind of defeats it's purpose by decreasing potential customer base. Also, forget the in store demo, doesn't tell you how its going to sound in your room. Seems more reasonable to charge for an in home demo, the store doesn't have to spend time to set up and you can lug the amps out of the store. All they have to do is collect the money, seems like a win win deal to me.
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I do business with a class-act dealer in La Verne, about a 15 minute drive from the dealer in question in this thread. Honestly, I didn't realize this guys business even existed. Just for the heck of it I'll have to stop by his store and get a feel for the mentality and how he treats potential customers. I'm not a "stroker", I do buy product and I am a loyal customer to those retailers who treat me well. No matter the category, weather it be hi-fi or another such as the fishing gear or ski gear that I buy, I remain loyal to a quality, class-act retailer. I see that the dealer is reading and watching this thread, as noted in his comments above. My suggestion to him is that he probably should pay attention to the amount of comments in this thread that understand his requirement verses those that hold a rather negative disposition about his requirement. To me, it seems, the negative dispositions far outweigh the understanding ones. He may want to make some adjustments to his business policies.
Coincidentally, I am in the market for a new set of speakers. Nothing terribly expensive but still, a good sale, in the $10K to $15K range. My timeline is now, not months from now, but now. I will be very interested to see how he does in convincing me that his product selection is right for me and that his business practices and ethics are also right for me. |
This guy is the worst, a disgrace to the local audio community. I walked in several years with a sack of cash intending to buy, and was immediately turned off by his attitude and approach to customer service. Take your business elsewhere! For those of you in SoCal looking to visit a brick and mortar and receive the type of service that spending this type of money deserves, message me and I am happy to provide some excellent suggestions.
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Simple answer no. A tire kicker today can be a customer tomorrow if you treat them well. |
If one has to ask the amount of the fee....... |
This could be easily avoided with a fair return policy. Buy it, listen at home for XX days, and if it doesn't float your boat, return the items. |
Come back this time next yr and this dealer will be out of business. |
Run away fast run away now. Sign of things to come. If you have a problem with these he is not going to take care of you! His attitude towards customer service 17k to buy something. I can’t hear it for free? He needs your money more than you need his Amps. |
3 cheers for Mammothguy! The guy everyone wishes they could sell to. I’ll give thumbs-up in advance if he brings us a report. It would be especially interesting if you go in there with cash and then get “blown out” by some crummy shenanigans.
That’s more salesperson jargon: a “blow out” is when you cause a customer to leave the store without buying. The customer is always right. But when he/she is wrong, a good salesperson doesn’t make a “weenie-wagging” contest out of it. (Especially with women!)
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@mitch4t
"
When I created this post, I was truly curious if high end stores were
now charging for an in-store demo. I’d never before heard of such a
thing.
I had no intention of being critical of the seller...I just
wanted to know if this was now a widespread and common practice in high
end audio.
"
Might want to read more of the posts on your thread I think things have gone beyond being critical , more like damaging
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Mitch41
Nothing real new! Happen to me, at the time I went to a S.F. Ca. to visit the Highest high end audio dealer
there at the end of the last century. To hear Sound Labs A.1 panels $25 bucks & no choice on records.
Here’ WHAT I told him. Will hear them somewhere TRUST ME! I did on a 737 down to L.A>
I listened and bought, them plus (2)ARC big Mono blocks to drive them all on the same ticket. Got home sent a copy of the sales ticket to the S.F. Ca dealer and a not so nice letter to him and C/c same to Sound Labs.
He’s no longer there dealer in San Francisco. Call me a real S.O.B. Ha!!!!
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I don’t think it is unreasonable to give a dealer a couple hundred bucks for the time and inconvenience of packing and unpacking them if you don’t buy. However if you have a good relationship with you dealer and have made purchases from him in the past he probably won’t ask for it. |
Sorry did you mean in store demo Charge. Lol!! That’s ridiculous. Never heard of it. |
I think they are very clear and upfront about it.
they said in the ad that they are packed away and stored so it will require unpacking, and setup.
My my hats off to them because they are weeding the tire kickers out.
Got to pay to play......
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@skypunk ... And, that's likely why he's still stuck with super expensive amps that he can't move. |
Their time is paid for by the mark up.
Just like cars.
i wouldn’t dare purchase from this person.
Brick and Mortar is dying, he’s just making it happen quicker. |
When I worked for HRC we did the same thing when homologating the Honda RC45. You paid $1000.00 came out to the track, I briefed you on the controls and nuances of the motorcycle. You then got 10 hot laps. Wreck it you own and G note went to your purchase.
we sold 800 of them in 2 weeks.
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@tubes444
does the name of the sf dealer have sf in it? And maybe audio and vision? |
"we sold 800 of them in 2 weeks." You could still do it. Just not with $17 000 amplifiers. Maybe with iPhones. Amplifiers could be 2 in 80 weeks. |
(1) The dealer is free to charge whatever he would like. But customers are also free to vote with their wallets.
(2) I view demos as a cost of doing business. Car dealers have to let people take test drives. As a lawyer, I have to spend at least 3-4 hours a week talking to potential clients who are speaking to a number of different prospective counsel.
(3) People browse stores. Yes, it takes up time, but you have a great advantage over the internet if you build a relationship rather than view interactions as transactional only. Andy at Saturday Audio Exchange knows how to do it right - he's set up many demos for me, and I buy from him whenever I can.
(4) "Too many hobbyists like to pass time hearing products. They ruin it for businesses." Just plain insulting. You should be grateful for any traffic through your store at all. You don't think that people want to hear gear they aspire to be able to afford, dream about it, work towards it? Short sighted.
This dealer is really shooting himself in the foot. Has the right to do it. I have the right to pee on my dining room table. But I don't, because it's stupid.
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