Mglik, get your self a new Grace Digital Link internet radio off Amazon for $159. I just got one last week and it is fantastic for a cheap but good streamer. It does hi-res as well if you ever need or want it. It has a coax digital out so it hooks up easily to your dac that you love. To me, this thing is the best cheap option out there and it works flawlessly. It sees my wifi and locks onto it immediately. It also does blue tooth to and from (to BT headphones) and has Chromecast built in. The included built in apps are pandora, iheart, and a few others, as well as thousands of internet radio stations. It will also do Amazon unlimited (there are plans on including Amazon HD in future firmware updates). So far I’m loving it.
CD or Streaming... am I missing out?
I listen to CD in my headphone office system. Use a Theta Compli transport and a very nice and pricey tube 16/44 DAC. Have thought about a streaming capability and all its benefits but am both limited by SPDF and by 16/44 only. I also love the analog sound of my tube DAC. Does streaming sound far surpass CD? Am I missing out?
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Try plugging your office system into your computer to start. (I assume you have a computer in your office.) If you have a laptop or desktop, you should have at least USB out. The MacBook 3.5mm connection doubles as optical out. And a windows desktop may have USB, optical, and coax outputs. You may have options. I recommend trying the free trials for Tidal, Qobuz, and Amazon high res. By the time you've exhausted the free trials, Spotify may have released it's CD quality tier. Spotify was far superior in its user interface when I ran my experiment. I currently use Qobuz for it's sound quality, but I'll be switching back to Spotify as soon as that CD quality tier launches. I used Spotify for about a 5-year period. The curated and rotating playlists, ability to discover new music, content layout, and access to content makes it the best. I find that Qobuz routinely lacks content I want to hear and doesn't help me to find the content I'd like to discover. Also, there's a social media element to Spotify. When you want to share songs with friends and family and you send them a link, the recipient is most likely to have Spotify account. |
I use both, CD and streaming and I have the Oppo BD 105 blu ray player and the Audiolab 6000N streamer with DTS Play Fi that gives me great convenience and access to many music apps Most of the time I'm using Qobuz and really enjoy discovering new artists that I've never heard before ( l live a sheltered life) and also hearing artists I've know for decades but don't have their CD To improve the sound quality l have the Exogal Comet plus external DAC and bypass the internal DAC in the Audiolab |
The streaming process is prone to loss that CD’s dont have, because it involves a more complicated delivery chain to get the bytes to the DAC - which involves traveling through your network EQ that introduces noise and bit-timing issues to the DAC. The jitter figures will be higher, has anyone seen any measured data on this?? Cheers George |
Hi, Really depends at what level of the audio spectrum you are looking, if mobile is one thing then streaming is ok. If High End then CDT + DAC may be the safest. Has you may know in Audio is timing critical, and on a CD player or a CDT + DAC you get a controlled environment, where all the aspects of the implementations have been thought through. On streaming, if using an external provider there is a part of the signal path that you will never control (basically all that comes before your home router) and can affect timing and other variables. If you use a in house streaming like Roon or HQ player then you probably can get very good results. But in both situations and on the side that you control, you need to pay attention to the implementation detail. I still have CD's because they help me: 1. Compare the SQ of the external streaming services 2. Compare the SQ of my in house streaming 3. Spin CD's just for fun of it :-D |
All routers generate noise and RFI. This can be passed to the audio system. The amount of RFI thru the service provider is very high. A linear power supply can lower the noise floor by replacing the very cheap supplied wall-wart. My router is plugged into a Brick Wall PC and the increased clarity through my CAT8 is without a doubt audible. |
If this thread was entitled, "DVD or Video streaming" is there a chance that anyone who recognized the higher quality picture of DVD (assume that’s true for the sake of this example) would forego streaming? It seems obvious that virtually no one would give up the chance for new shows, movies, documentaries, right? No one would simply start purchasing all the content available on streaming video for their collection -- right? The question becomes, what is it about audio content that is different? Why would someone just give up the variety and novelty of streaming content to listen mostly or exclusively to cds? Serious question. |
Using a Primakuna PROLOGUE CLASSIC CD player against a Lumin T2 two of us could hear no difference in “regular” tracks and thought “high res” streaming sounded richer. Naturally two ageing men with arguably not the best hearing may not be definitely the best to suss out what’s what but we were convinced. As many have said steaming done right (upper mid to high end) makes CD’s redundant. As for a high end vinyl set up verses high end streaming that gets into gang warfare. |
As many have said steaming done right (upper mid to high end) makes CD’s redundant.A few friends and acquaintances I know/knew that have sold all their massive CD collection for expensive streaming. We don’t see them much any more for audio equipment shoot out. Audio meetings and new product listening. Think about why this is? Also why do so many here talk about chopping and changing their streamers/the streaming companies, the best way to connect it to get it sounding right? Cheers George |
Some Report a superior experience with CD (Re Book) playback ...Exactly what we did in the A/B in my 4th post page one. Through very high end stuff, but it was clear what the better was. And any later music from the last couple of years was just too compressed for either format. Just look what happens to the later release of the same thing. This 1989 one is the best, just look at the dynamic range Cheers George |
I would like to share my experience: There is no difference between playing direct from CD or ripped flac file. I do not feel any difference. 1-If you stream directly from Tidal or Qobuz via wifi instead of using PC and specific music software like ROON, the result is very disappointed. It is necessary to use PC + Software 2- I am using Pioneer N30 streamer connected to Integrated DAC/Amp Hegel 360 and I can taste the same quality as CD player I have Sonos Faber Olympica iii |
From the point of view of cost, if you happen to own thousands of CDs and you don't mind ripping them to a server, all it costs you is time (I did mine while watching TV in the evenings) rather than fees for a music service (I ripped well over 4000 CDs). OTOH, if you are always wanting to keep up on current music, the services would have an advantage unless you can borrow CDs from your local library to rip. |
I use a Cambridge CXN (V2) for streaming and a Sony XA 5400 ES for CD/SACD. The Sony was a Stereophile A+ component for three years running a few years back. I have streamed on Spotify but am 99% Tidal which is 16/44 FLAC almost exclusively. I have about 750 CDs mostly from 10 - 15 years back and longer. The Tidal CD is about as good as an SACD version played through the Sony. There are streaming stations in about that same league but will take you some time to audition many to find them.. I short cut the ones I find in the Cambridge app. Have 20 presets across many genres that are excellent. For home use Cat 6 or 7 Ethernet if at all possible instead of wi-fi. |
If the bits are the same, and the compression is lossless, the sound is the same. It doesn't matter what differences people think they hear. They don't exist. And the bits of a high quality streaming service, like Amazon Music HD, are the same as CD. Actually, Amazon Music UHD has more bitrate depth than CDs. I've sold most of my CDs, except the nearly impossible to replace, the very few that aren't on my streaming service and the remasters. Streaming saves a lot of physical storage space, obviously the selection is almost limitless and the convenience is ridiculous. Everything about my streaming, even turning on my system, is voice-controlled. Plus, I can wirelessly cast my ripped CDs from my laptop. CDs are going extinct. |
Both CDs and streaming sound very good on my system with CDs having a definite edge. But ever since I acquired the GeerFab Sound extractor, SACDs have been my go-to for sound quality. SACDs come very close to analog with this device. Red book CDs are enhanced sonically as well with it. Records still sound the best though. |
Def CD. My wife, occasionally, actually pays attention to what I’m playing. I was listening to my newly received Japanese recorded CD of Days of Future Passed when, from the bedroom around the corner, I heard “wow, that was so clear . . it sounded great.” She did have a basis of comparison as every morning for about 3 weeks before it was DOFP on Spotify streamed through a Mac MB50 to a Mac MA252 to SF Olympica llls. And for me sitting in the sweet spot, the richness and timbre of voices were definitely clearer and fuller on the CD. But, Spotify has given me a universe of music for 10/month. Best of both worlds. And my CD player is a Sony 300 disc changer. Makes me sad to think how much better the CD might sound with a “real” CD player. |
This is how I relate using streaming (either reading from a hard drive or from the internet): ‘Some people still think that using pen and paper is better than using computers.’ It was proven over a dozen years ago that reading music from a hard drive sounded better than reading it from a cd. Also with hi-res source material: SACD, dsd, and MQA, these formats exceed vinyl. |
mglik ... analog has an infinite sample and bit rateWere that true, analog would have infinite resolution which, of course, it doesn't. You probably hold the mistaken notion that digital "chops" the sound into discontinuous bits, but that's not how digital works. You might want to watch this. |
I am relatively new to streaming. I tried a few different paths before settling on my music server running Roon with an internal 2TB SSD. I ripped my CD collection to FLAC files. I found adding a $20 network switch between my Router and Music Server improved the sound of CD quality (44.1kHz, 16 bit) streaming music (Everything else in the house uses WiFi). I added an LPS to the network switch mostly to feel better but I think it helped a little too. Streaming CD quality is still a little less than playing FLAC files on the SSD. The bass is better with the SSD files. Hi res music (anything 24 bit) didn't seem to change much with the network switch. Hi res streaming and playing SSD hi res files seem pretty close. They sound great either way. Hi res audio creates a nice large soundstage. The big step up is downloaded MQA files stored on the SSD. MQA files create a holographic soundstage that fills the front half of the room rivaling the best vinyl that I have. |
I'll share something not digital related to put into context my previous entry. Since retiring recently, I have revamped my stereo system. I replaced my preamp of 22 years, my CD player of 15 years with a DAC and CD Transport, and my amp of 21 years. I replaced my turntable of 27 years last year. I also replaced all of my cabling from my tonearm to my power cords. After all that I put on my 40 year old vinyl copy of Mobile Fidelity Labs, Dark Side of the Moon. Near the end of the 2nd side the "voice" was actually laughing inside my head. It was like I had on headphones. I nearly jumped out of my chair. That was the first time the imaging extended all of the way to my listening chair. I don't know how they did that but that type of experience makes it all worth it. |
I can say this about comparing music from CDs vs SSD files. On my system, which I feel is very resolving now, they sound very close to the same. I am a bit chagrined about that considering I ripped all of my CDs using a $40 DVD/CD Reader/writer attached to my MacBook Pro using DBPowerAmp's CD ripper. I got me a CD Transport that uses vacuum tubes on the output. This transport has several output options: BNC, Coaxial, optical and it also can upsample CDs to 128kHz DSD with output through either I2S or 3 BNC connectors (I think this output is SS). My DAC also uses vacuum tubes on the output plus it has a vacuum tube regulated power supply. It sounds very nice. The 3 BNC output/input sounds the best and the I2S is very nearly identical. I was blown away with the sound of CDs on my new system. I hear details in my CDs now that I had never heard before. It dispelled all of my notions about the limitations of CDs. Plus I can listen to my CDs all day long. Not like before where after one disc or so I either switched to vinyl or walked away. So after getting the music server I listened back and forth and I cannot really tell much difference between spinning the CD and playing the FLAC. Still, I enjoy spinning the CDs but sitting in my chair with my iPad and getting the same and even better sound with hi res is going to make me lazy I think. |
I just got my first streamer (Node2i) and Tidal about 6 months ago. While I am enjoying the selection and music discovery, I cannot think of one time that I was simply blown away by the sound quality. It's fine.... no complaints.... but I've not been bowled over by anything, like I am with CD or Vinyl playback. I do know that streaming Tidal from my computer through my pro-audio interface sounds better than the Node2i. I'm still very happy with the Node2i overall though. Love the alarm feature. I wake up to an 80's new-wave station every morning. |
If you’re an audiophile and sound is the issue, you’ll probably like your physical media more!Sound is the issue for me, that why I’ll stick with CD, even though not as convenient. Just to go backwards to the vinyl days If convenience was the reason back then also I would have gone to 8 track/cassettes instead of staying with vinyl. I’ve said it before, a few I know, have sold their huge 30+ years collection library of CD’s, gone over to to streaming, they now have given up on being audiophiles. Don’t come to the audio society meetings or members home gatherings for drinks and shoot outs between equipment, just gone MIA. Cheers George |
George - Interesting, maybe what makes someone an audiophile is a desire to make something that really should not sound good (or even work at all) sound great. Vinyl, when you think about it, really should sound rubbish, even if it made a noise at all. How is it possible that a groove can be cut like that, and a needle run through it, and the music comes out just so alive? It should be impossible, let alone sound great. Getting great sound from vinyl is an achievement. A miracle. Ditto CD. You look at it and wonder ‘how can that even work?’ And again the triumph is not merely that it works at all, but that it can be made to sound so good. Good sound from CD is an achievement. But less of one than vinyl so some vinyl audiophiles don’t really let them in. But streaming? Of course it just works, like an iPhone or an Xbox just works. Bits stream from the digitised masters in the cloud service in perfect order to your dac, ready for exact unpacking. Where’s the achievement in that. Any 10 year old in their school lunch break can set up the Rasperry Pi they carry around in their pocket to be a streamer, and they can be playing hi res music from Qobuz into their headphones before they’ve finished their sandwich. And much to the horror, dismay or denial of some, that sound is probably a better replica of the master than either vinyl or CD can be - understandable, really, given the simplicity of the chain. Seems much to easy to be a hobby, let alone an obsession. |
And much to the horror, dismay or denial of some, that sound is probably a better replica of the master than either vinyl or CD can be - understandableThe word to question there is "probably" And it's not in all cases we've, done a/b with on the same hiend system. Here https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2120951 Cheers George |
I need both CD and Streaming....Yes good way for it’s use. That’s why so many I know have dropped out of our "audiophile" club meetings and listening sessions after turning to streaming, they use it like the "house radio", and don’t seem to "focus" and listen anymore like they used to. They're not audiophiles anymore (good or bad)? Cheers George |
I only recently began paying attention to the signal path from the modem to the music server and from the modem to the DAC. And linear power supplies. I did not take what people wrote seriously. It was my loss. The quality of streaming when set up properly in this way is magic. Keep tweaking your streaming process and you will find that you don’t have to trade off SQ for convenience. I’m so glad that digital technology has finally gotten to parity with vinyl. Different but equal. Keep tweaking your digital, it’s well worth it. |
I love my Tidal, but also really love listening to my physical CDs and SACDs. -Tidal, Spotify, Qobuz, are not comprehensive catalogues. I have plenty of physical discs that just aren’t on them. Every time we undergo a format conversion, it’s never all transcribed. (Famously, De La Soul, is not on streaming... these kids are missing out on history!) -Lots of artists have ’special edition’ albums on streaming services. They just include another hour of unreleased B-sides and mixes. It’s to run up their score and make a few extra cents if you just leave it playing in the background. It’s almost like spam, or those recipe articles with Dickensian intros for SEO. I find it disingenuous. -Likewise, A helpful thing with streaming was to turn auto-play, or repeat, off. I want silence when my albums are done, give the mind some time to digest. -If I’m winding down at night, there’s a psychological merit to listening to something that has zero connection to the internet. Or if I’m coding, I want the music playing to come from a place that’s separate from the machine I’m working on. Having a disc play though is just one less distraction. Also noteworthy, my CDP (Denon DCD S10) has a digital input, so I'm listening to all sources through the same converter. SACD is converted to PCM 88.2khz before being piped in (fight me) and MQA is either 88.2khz or 96khz. Rather than sweat every iota of performance from each medium and have a jumble of boxes, my goal was to reduce the differences between the sources and simplify my connections. And I really just love the look of my S10 set. |
I will always be oriented toward listening, my precious hours, to the best SQ I can muster. However, it seems very attractive to check out something like Pandora and how when selecting a favorite artist they mix in related content from others. Think I will spend some daily time listening to Pandora through the app on my smart TV. A good idea to discover new artists and music. Have that as a handy guide to buy new CDs or LPs. |
Think I will spend some daily time listening to Pandora through the app on my smart TV. A good idea to discover new artists and music. Have that as a handy guide to buy new CDs or LPs.Good way to look at it, use the internet services as a sampler library, then look for the "least compressed" version CD/LP of it using the "dynamic range data website" http://dr.loudness-war.info/ (usually the earliest/first one) Get the label/cat no. buy used one for a couple of dollars on ebay, like I do. Cheers George |
+1 to what @georgehifi says. Streaming can sound quite enjoyable, it's just not quite as good as playing back local files and definitely not as good as vinyl. However, I find that in this year of COVID and working from home that I'm streaming most of the time, because it allows me to listen to music while doing other things more easily. See if you like the idea of listening through Pandora. Just know that if you like the idea of streaming, you can get FAR better sound quality via Qobuz. Even Spotify Premium sounds pretty decent. (Amazon HiFi & Tidal do not). |
