Best upgrade: amp or pre-amp?

What are you trying to achieve sonically?  Or is it the dreaded “itch”? 

Do the preamp and amp and swap them for a Luxman or Ayre integrated.

@rocray : There the itch, but the amp/pre-amp are are borrowed long-term to a friend so I want to get my own gear. I'm not in actively in the hobby for a long time, so it's hard to me to articulate "what I want to achieve sonically". I must say the setup I have amazed me every time I'm listening to it, but I'm realistic: it can certainly be better! I listen to jazz, blues, female signer, piano, pop and the occasional edm. Not into rock/hard-rock/punk /metal.

@erik_squires : I considered Luxman, but from what I read (never listen to them), Luxman is very clean/analytical and I fear with the Sopra that share similar attributes, it might be too much. I realize I might be totally wrong.  

I considered Luxman, but from what I read (never listen to them), Luxman is very clean/analytica

I would never in a million years use those terms.  Listen for yourself.

I’d consider an integrated amplifier.  You’ll get more bang for your buck.  If you’re comfortable sharing a budget, I’m sure folks could better help with suggestions.

@erik_squires +1 here. Luxman is a superior made product and will probably be and end game integrated Amp.

If the Focal has Beryllium drivers, then to my ears, the KRELL K-300i integrated will be an upgrade. The K-300i is a single box with optional internal DAC and ROON READY. This unit is a killer piece. I sold my recently only because I bought the KRELL Duo 175XD stereo amp in the same lineup.

The used amp listed below is what I wanted to buy but I could not make the money work, so I ended up getting the lower powered KRELL 175XD instead.

Krell DUO 300 XD | Solid state | Covina, California 91724 | Audiogon

I am not sure how this would work with your MAC preamp, but even a $2500 Benchmark LA4 would work great with that used KRELL Dou 300XD and the Focal. I know because I tried the 175XD with the LA4 preamp.

Though for the sake of simplicity and sound the K-300i is my fav integrated amp. I considered the Luxman 509x but the K-300i was more to my tastes. It sounded smoother (90 watts Class A) and had good bass power. You will not get fatigue with the KRELL. There is a recent thread on this integrated amp.

BTW - Luxman is not analytical. It is warmer than the KRELL I am recommending.

Why not stay with Mac gear? 

My initial impression is first step if preamp or amp is the amp.  And depending on your budget there are some excellent integrated amps

The second thought I have is if you can listen to different manufacturers.  All pieces are slightly different.  I've owned and love McIntosh.  I also appreciate other brands both SS and tubes. 

agree, get rid of both and buy a decent integrated. There‘s lots to choose from, some good ones have already been mentioned. If you aren‘t after big power the Leben CS600 is pretty special.

@erik_squires & @webking185 : ll fair points on the Luxman. I need to listen to it to forge a real opinion. I know it is very-well regarded. 

@yyzsantabarbara . Yes, the Sopra have Beryllium tweeter, and the Krell K-300i is one I definitely have my eyes on as well. 

Thanks all for your suggestion so far. Your feedback make me realize my initial tough of replacing both pieces by a good integrated was the right one. I'll add the Krell and Luxman to my short list. But if I got down the integrated route, the MA8950 would be the default contender as I'm very please with SQ of my mac gear.

Evaluating alternatives (Krell, Luxman, Hegel or Pass Labs) is always tricky for the usual reasons: not available to test in Montreal areal, different speakers, different room, ... I wish it exist a service to test any gear at home for two weeks, even for a fee!

@papyneau , McIntosh MA8950 is a fine choice.  Figure you have this brand already and would like to try something else.  I think the Luxman is a better match for the Focal Sopra 1.  Maybe you can demo in stores?  If I had to choose, Luxman for sure, either the 509 or 590.  The 590 is on my list for sure.

OP:
 

I don't want to bias you too much, but there was another recent thread on Mc vs. Luxman here as well.  Listen for yourself, but of all the possible comments I could see thrown at Luxman, analytical or cold are not the one's I'd use.  Certainly not what I'd buy either. :)

Best,

Erik

@papyneau If you are in Quebec.  I highly suggest you include Moon by Simaudio in your comparison.  

I have owned Mc amplification and when it was time to get more power I compared McIntosh & Moon - I was comparing MC 462 to Moon 330A.

I went with Moon because I thought the sound was more dynamic and detail presentation was better. 

Buy an older class A krell. If recapped that would be best. I’m talking ksa series. They’re warm with lots of detail and not that difficult to work on. Dual mono design. Will drive any speaker and just look so cool. Can find for under 3k. 

Well... yes... the MA8950 appears to be a great integrated amp... but... "there’s always a but"... it is a very, very sophisticated integrated amp... with lots of circuitry and a sophisticated DAC... and comes at a premium price for all of that. Plus it’s all SS design.

The MA352 on the other hand is less sophisticated, includes no DAC, but has a tube preamp / buffer that adds a great touch to the sound quality... and... costs a bit less.

If you want a little more flexibility in your sound quality - the MA352 might be a good option - you can try various DAC’s and tubes to see what sounds best to you... and it still has enough power to drive most speakers. It sounds especially good with Harbeths!

As far as Hegel H390 or H590 - yes they’re great, but may be too much of a change from the McIntosh sound. And... again the DAC is included, and while it’s very good in the H590... and... part of the bargain - I think I’d prefer saving the money and picking my own preference in DAC’s. The primary reason I got the H590 was because it sounds great with Harbeths and is what they demo their amps with at shows.

If you’ve loved the McIntosh sound... you might think about sticking with it... with the MA352, unless they've got another tube / SS hybrid amp a step up from the MA352.  

Just a thought...

I'm a big fan of separates, not integrated amplifiers. While the Luxman and other integrated amps are very good, I believe a significant improvement in sound can be had with a separate preamplifier and power amplifiers. This allows so much more flexibility in achieving the sound you desire. Have fun.

+1 for the MA252

Typo - +1 for the MA352

All good suggestions - buy a nice condition BEL power amp and send it to me for upgrades and then you will be dome with all of this.

Happy Listening.

@fiesta75  +1

Do not go for integrated. Separates will let you have the chance to change in the future. What you need right now might be a pre replacement first.

Luxman C900u used is a good choice.

and go and see.

@fiesta75 +2

Speakers

I would never in a million years use those terms. Listen for yourself.

@erik_squires BIG +2. I don’t know who fed you those impressions of Luxman amps, but it makes no sense whatsoever, and I think a Luxman integrated is an excellent recommendation. Luxman will likely give you more detail yet still retain much of the tonal richness and musicality of the Mac gear. To me, Mac gear sounds overly warm and almost mushy. I think Luxman could be a revelation to you. I also agree with earlier post that Hegel, while excellent, may be too much of a shift and may not be to your liking. Anyway, hope this helps, and best of luck.

Speakers

  Focal Sopra 1

No simple answer, but;

While I agree integrateds are a compromise, the Technics SU R 1000 COULD be the one to own

I do not own your kit, but my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5 is a pretty good preamp/dac. Last 2 years I tried a lot of power amps, and they all sounded different. The one that stood out from the crowd is my LSA Voyager GaN 350 (MSRP $3000 (same tech as in the Technics)

hth

@ papyneau I guess you will need to decide if you are going with an integrated or not. My personal opinion is the preamp is more important than the amp since it’s closest to the source. I also believe in system matching with separates i.e. using the pre and amp from the same company. Just my preference and you may have good luck using different manufactures but it takes a fair amount of experimenting.

There are some good suggestions on the integrateds. Luxman, Krell, Simaudio, and another one to consider would be the Coda csib. I don’t have any direct experience with Coda but they can be configured in class A and A/B and have been reviewed well. I think at this price point an integrated can provide a better value with a single chassis rather than getting another "box". Of course you lose some flexibility but perhaps not sonics. You won’t really know unless you can listen to the contenders in your or a similar system. Just my two cents.

As @goose  typed, I had always thought that conventional wisdom dictated getting it right up front & then working back. 

Topic: "Best upgrade: amp or pre-amp?"

Recommendation: "Speakers" 

@papyneau - I inherited *exactly* the same rig from my father (with KEF reference series speakers)

The best first money I spent was on a DAC. Now on a Benchmark DAC3 HGC, it sounds awesome coming through those Mac pieces

You might consider having your pieces refurbished by the folks at Audio Classics in Vestal, NY (Mac specialists) - I did that for the pre & really upped the sound

Over time, the rig became a Mac C2300 (tube pre) and MC152 amp (both purchased from Audio Classics), with Harbeth Super HL5+ speakers

An intermediate step (the 2300 & 152 are about $8k together) could be a used Mac integrated

I will say, the original rig still holds up darn well (I kept my father’s pieces)

@overthemoon 

I saw the Moon products and I am certainly sensible by the "Fabriqué au Québec" touch and think you are right: I should at least give them a try. It should be way easier to try them out that other brand like Luxman and Pass that have a very few dealers in the great Montreal area.

@bassdude & the MA352 community:

I haven't considered tube so far as I know nothing virtually nothing about them and it seems they required a bit mote attention than a SS even if I acknowledge the fact that is brings something in term of AQ . However, I completely agree that the MA8950, and others integrated have way more features that I need (lots of input, EQ, DAC, ...). My use case for the  foreseeable future is the current one: one input, the Bluesound Node. This is why one of the top of my list are the Pass Labs INT-25 or INT-60: a beautiful simplicity. 

@fiesta75, @runwell , @ditusa :

My though when starting this thread was to go separate, but not for the flexibility it offers (I might be wrong, but I'm convinced I don't and will not need it). It was to spread the investment over time and ultimately end-up with a better (and probably more expensive) system. I realize it might be a form of flexibility. But I wonder how much better the AQ is considering the latest advance in integrated technology. Of couse, once again, it depends and here we are back to square 1!

@jonwatches1 

Ok, you got my attention! I'm really interested how much you considered the AQ improved by spending 8k (USD I assume, so it's 10k CAD) to replace that semi-vintage gear we have in common. I must admit, one of my worse fears is to spend that money to end-up with something equivalent (still, as opposed as you, that Mac gear is a long term lent from a good friends... that inherited the gear from his father! So I must get my own eventually). Also, when I was looking for speakers, the Harbeth were on my short list (M30.2 XD, C7ES-3 XD) but decided to go with the Focal and I really happy with them. Finally, the DAC... this one is not on my short-term concern as I might decided to go with new gear that has a good/better one included. From what I read, there are different school of though on how DAC really make a difference for the price. Eventually, I'll need to give it an honest try.

@ieales, @ditusa :

Are you suggesting the Sopra are the weakest link?

Thanks all for the  hive minds - it really helps wrapping my head are this choice I have to make!

Right now,A lot of  Hi End system use 2 chassis for  pre ONLY ,the main point is to isolate the electric noise from the circuit, not mention inside the integrated, the power is splitting into pre and amplifier. so  the integrated is confined to that level.

Except some very special  integrated ,which is total very high level design( with very high price at the same time)  and maybe two power cable in, like VAC statement 450i  iQ or ASR integrated with a lot of chassis

Are you suggesting the Sopra are the weakest link?

Absolutely.

Over exaggerated upper octave, wooly, indistinct bass, roller coaster step response, impedance and phase.

When I last looked for speakers, my exact words to the salesman:

"You’re joking, right? These are awful."

Sopra series are  such good speakers, in my opinion.

Agree Sopra's are weakest link. Heard them about 6 times now and find them not overly smooth and no energy in midrange. Not my cup of coffee

@papyneau I think you will notice a ’change’ regardless of your decision to go to components or an integrated because you will be acquiring ’newer’ gear. McIntosh doesn’t make it anymore and they have (and will) continue to evolve their products.

Also I’m not suggesting ’change is good or bad’ - it is just different.

Manufacturers will have different sounds - McIntosh, Pass Labs, Hegel, Luxman and so on.

The difference is personal taste - I have a friend who has Magnapan speakers and I have Sonus fabers - very different sounding. And I enjoy listening to music and having a beverage with him in either place. He played Phantom of the Opera - I never heard it before and it’s presentation was so good.

There’s a few things to note about some manufacturers products.

• McIntosh makes very full featured integrated amps (DAC, phono stage) versus Pass Labs
• Pre-amp is a source item in my experience. Brand matching isn’t a requirement. During my upgrade journey I’ve upgraded preamp twice with the amp following a few months later. (once using a NAD integrated as the amp and another time using McIntosh MC302 as the amp) and experienced an improvement in the sound from the preamp alone.
• Finally, I am wondering personally how much our experience in audio impacts our tastes and desires when upgrading - it’s why I am encourage you to listen to the units you are interested as well as some things you aren’t interested or just curious about. Why I say this - when I bought my NAD system is was a drastic improvement for me. I upgraded to McIntosh buying demo gear in the beginning of 2020 and the sound was awesome and wonderful. 

Lastly, when I was looking to upgrade based on wanting more power - I listened to a lot of manufacturers - ARC, Boulder, Linn, Luxman, Moon, McIntosh, Rega and Rogue.  It wasn't that I was thinking about buying them all - it was about learning about different philosophies in reproduction.  For me, it was a 3 manufacturer race for me ARC, McIntosh and Moon. And in reality, I love the sound of ARC but I'm not sure I want the hassle of tube maintenance or the space required for a separate phono stage.  Again these are my experiences with biases and personal constraints.

Enjoy the journey and let us know what you decided and how it turns out.

Sopra series are  such good speakers, in my opinion.

If you played something you recorded, you might change your mind by the 2nd bar.

@ieales 

         You think Sopra is bad, so the next question is

        focal utopia series,let's say the starting model Utopia scala. 

         How about scala? Is that good or bad in your opinion?

Can't comment. Manufacturers often have a 'house flavor'. 🤷‍♂️

@soix, @erik_squires,  @webking185 - I must apologize for my noob mistake. I confused one Retro-look Japanese brand with another... The Accuphase are deemed to be "clean/analytical", not the Luxman! (but again, not first-hand knowledge)

@overthemoon - I agree with you, building experience by listening to different make and models is certainly an enjoyable journey toward better and more conscious choices. At the same time, I'm afraid that along the way, I'm digging deeper into the rabbit hole and becoming an audiophile!! 😱 . About this: I'll soon start another thread to share such an experience: I was able to have a Naim SUPERNAIT 3 last weekend to compare to my current gear in my own room - a very educating experience!

@rsf507, ​@ieales, @ditusa  - While auditioning for my speakers, I listen to BW 805 D4, the Totem Element Fire V2, and the Dynaudio Heritage Special. When I listened to the Sopra, it was love at first sight. But I must admit they sound very different from the others and completely understand if they're not someone's cup of tea. This is why it is sooo hard to forge an opinion based on others' comments as not everyone likes the same thing!

That being said, the Luxman's are now very high on my list and there are two for sale second hand in my region: L-509X and L-507uX by lurking this forum a lot, I would be interested to hear @erik_squires opinion on which one is better value for the money (6,5k and 9k CAD respectively) ;-)

OP:  AHHHH!!! I have not heard an Accuphase, ever, so I can't comment, but I knew it wasn't Luxman. 😂

Since you are talking of updating: move to Class D amplification with either a Legacy or Atmasphere amp. Feed directly from a DAC with a decent output stage and forget about the preamp.

When I listened to the Sopra, it was love at first sight.

I knew it couldn't be the sound. 😏

This is just my personal opinion. Solely on sound quality, separates only have the advantage if the speakers are a difficult load (big power or current requirement). Nowadays high quality integrateds costing up to $20k or more are capable of stellar performance, surpassing the quality of separates in the same price range. There are many great sounding integrateds in the $10k mark thereabouts.

My experience is only limited to integrateds costing up to $10k. The sound quality of the $9k integrated which I currently own actually surpassed the performance of the costlier separates costing up to $15k, which I also own.

In summary, in my book you need to spend considerably more to beat the performance of a good integrated amp. If the integrated costs $10k, you may need to spend 20k or more to beat it. A $10k separates will likely sound worse or inferior to a $10k integrated amp.

3rd or 4th Erik Squires. The integrated that I have is a Luxman.

The sound quality of the $9k integrated which I currently own actually surpassed the performance of the costlier separates costing up to $15k, which I also own.

$ ≠ SQ.

For the googolth time, it's a system: Change one thing, change everything.

@erik_squires , I heard Luxman and I knew it was for me.  The L590AX MKII sounds spectacular.  It will be a rare gem down the line if it is not already, especially if they decide to stop making Class A.

Thanks all for you suggestions. I finally decided to pull the trigger...

I got the Luxman L-509X, second hand but like new. 

It is something... 🤩

It's a significant leap from what I had and I love it. The sound is so pure, so detailed I can believe my ears! It's a bit brighter that the mac, but in a good way. And the sound persist a bit longer so it feel more warm.

Again, thanks for the advices on the good match with the Focal. I audition it before I bought it (it was a very nice audiophile that live 1h drive from where I am) but the system and the room was completely different, so that was a part of the transaction that was a leap of faith that I did because of the consistent advice on that good match (here and other forums).

So I'll probably come less often on this site because I must admit, it gets expensive!!

Cheers,

- Papyneau