Audio Research Pre-Amp advice

LS 28SE, assuming you are looking for a line stage (no phono).

Hope this helps.

My REF 5 se has 6 k hours on the clock w zero issues…. 6 tubes… but sure get a recent LS… imo great gear…especially the XLR models.

Yes… used LS28SE… or LS28… or as far back as you have to go to meet your budget. Outstanding preamps. You get a great deal of the Reference sound.

I would not be afraid of the Refs though. I have owned a Reference 5SE for ten years… never needed a tube change before I traded it in for my Reference 6SE, which I have had for nearly three years.

I would love a 28SE if I could find used at a good price. I just want to buy the best model in my budget of around 6k or less. Don't want too old because of service issues. I am just trying to find the best one within budget. I am not sure which model sounds best that's why I am asking people who have had experience with this brand. Thanks for your responses.

Add one more for the LS28SE, I have had mine about 2 years and am very pleased with the performance. I did have a REF5SE and it was a great piece, long story short, I tried solid state and bought the LS28SE and really think it is so close to the performance of the REF5 and way less heat produced. 

I have an Audio Research SP-16, which I recommend due to the tubes used. This pre-amp uses 12AX7 tubes which are inexpensive, and many brands make them. It also works flawlessly with most amps I have - it is also only single ended though.

There’s an Ls28 for sale on eBay for $5500. It doesn’t say SE. A little over 1000 hrs on the tubes.

Thanks, I saw that but don't like to deal with ebay. I would rather buy a demo from a dealer if available and I am looking for silver color.

I have a ARC LS15 tube pre amp that I bought in 1996 and still use it to this day I did cap upgrade over 15 years ago It has 4 12xA7 tubes that have been replace once  Oh it also has a remote

@tomic601 I also have an ARC Ref 5SE and love it.  But if you haven't replaced the tubes for 6000 hours you should really do that.  The 6H30 and 6550 tubes are cheap and the manual recommends replacing them every 4000 hours.  It is likely that there has been a slight degradation in the sound quality and you just haven't noticed it.

I have owned several ARC pre amps over the years and each one has been great. I currently have an LS27 with XLR and remote.  I have no desire to upgrade at this time.  Very musical pre amp.

Some rather strange responses and comments here!

OP - I would have thought not many, if any, dealer would keep a 7yr old product on Dem (unless it's still current in the lineup, which I don't know). And what's your problem with the valve compliment in a Ref version? An LS28SE, which I agree would/should be high on your list, uses 4 6H30's, but a Ref version only uses two more tubes, so what's your gripe? My Ref 3 uses this compliment, and in response to @pinwa - have you been living under a rock for a few years?! 6H30's and 6550W tubes are anything but cheap! c$60 EACH for the 6H30 (rapidly becomming rare btw due to the Russian 'thing'!) and c$80/120 for the 6550W, which, IMO, does not make them cheap, unless, of course, you are rich.

I'm also VERY surprised at the comment by @ghdprentice , normally quite knowlegeable, but saying his Ref 5SE has never had a tube change in 10 YEARS!!! Don't you ever use it then?? And you comment of 'never needed' - what does that mean? It still works so doesn't need new tube(s)?! ARC recommend a change at 4000hrs, but for best sound quality, every 3000hrs! So you must be using your Ref 5SE for less than c7hrs per WEEK! Only ONE hour per day?! Or one afternoon/evening per week. It takes c2hrs for my Ref 3 to 'come on song'.

As for people mentioning the tube hours counter - this 'feature' is complete BS except for the original owner or original tube replacer (if that's a word), and unless you KNOW, for certain, when the tubes were inserted into one of these that has a tube counter, you can take the figure with a huge 'pinch of salt', as that can be zeroed at any time, VERY easily, without even taking the cover off on some models (like my Ref 3 eg) so my recommendation is to ignore what a seller says about tube hours.

@jrwaudio 

I also have a LS15 bought in '96 with updated Infini caps (work done by Ward Fiebiger may he RIP). Changed the original Sovtek tubes after about 12 years! Put in Gold Lions, wow what a difference.  It has been relegated to the garage stereo as I have a REF6 now.

Regards,

barts

Thanks for all the responses so far but which are the best sounding built in the last 10 years excluding Ref. I want something easier to maintain, so in the future if it ever needs service. Ref's would cost more to service. Someone sold a 27 on Audio Mart maybe that one would one good to consider?

Given your criteria, you should consider the latest non REF ARC line stage at $6k or less. I recommend setting up some alerts using hifi shark and be ready to act quickly when you get a hit.

@romad - I would not be too concerned about servicing for an older ARC preamp. ARC is famous for servicing older, even vintage gear. Additionally there are shops out there who service older tubed gear as well. 

Happy listening. 

@pinwa ah…. No I said ‘no trouble “… I am on tube set #3 ish as I change the 6550 in the power supply at the 2 k mark. I and a few others love what a vintage Tung Sol Black Plate from NJ does there…

‘I guess to clarify for the OP, I don’t view routine and even the occasional bad tube as trouble.  The op should imo contact Randy at Optimal Enchantment in SantaMonica… he sells a bunch of ARC and will likely have a line on a 28, etc….
 

As to the tube counter, I’ve owned my unit since new and it is easy to keep a running log in the manual.

Find a used LS28SE here or on US Audio Mart. Buy from a reputable seller and you should be fine. I wouldn’t bother with any of the older preamps mentioned here if you have $6,000 to spend.

Hello, If you do get one it looks like your choices will be the Ref 5 SE and the LS28SE. These are amazing preamps. The Ref 5SE and the LS28SE are very close in output. Maybe even the same. The LS28 SE runs cooler due to not having the 6550 tube. Tomic and I both have the Ref 5 SE and have upgraded the 6550. I went with NOS Winged C since I could not locate the Tungsol I wanted at the time. This is the only tube you can roll. If you want that neutral sound for ever then get the LS28 SE. make sure it is a SE. upgrades take a long time and cost $$$. I have a fringed who has the LS28SE and loves it. Plus it runs cool enough to be on a covered shelf. I would not recommend this for the Ref5SE due to the 6550 tube. I believe the LS28SE is just a bit quieter than the REF5SE. It all comes down to the slightly warmer tube sound. I wanted the REF5SE for that reason. FYI the NOS tube is about $300. So $5700 would be your real budget because this makes a huge difference 

Yep…. And you might be shocked what 3x HRS Nimbus couplers can do under either …. 

@daveteauk

The reason I never needed a tube change in my ARC ReF 5SE was because I had a job. The max a day was one hour (often all I could manage was 45 minutes) and I spent a week or two out of the country every month. So, putting hours on a component came slow. I would guess it is not unusual for working folks… having an average 300 hours a year.

Now that I am retired I am able to listen nearly three hours a day much of the time. So, still over three years to change only one tube (6550WE), which I did. So, it will be another year to change the rest.

+1 on not worrying about service. Most will never need service, they are built to last a lifetime and Audio Research prides itself on servicing older models and having an extensive parts stockroom. Should you keep it for decades, then any competent electrical repair can update the caps.

Thanks for all the comments I am leaning towards a 27 or 28SE. The 28SE is still a little pricey for me so have to think about it.

@ghdprentice - I get what you're saying about working. If you only used it for <1hr, then you've never heard it at it's best, and I'm sure you'd have had a better experience with a SS amp that warms up much quicker. I wouldn't even consider serious listening to my Ref3 in under an hour or more; as I said, it really takes c2hrs to come on song. When I 1st switch on, it's either Radio Paradise (A FANTASIC radio station btw, which streams FLAC files, if anyone's not heard of it, give it a try - it has no ads, has several different streams for different genres, 5 different quality levels in case you have a poor connection, and an amazing thing for a radio station; if you don't like a track, you can press 'next' and it,,, you get it), or TV/Film duties, while it warms up. The warm up change is NOT subtle, so again I'm surprised at your usage, and given your work commitments, your choice of it.

When you changed the 6550WE, what make did you choose? There's been several comments here about that tube, and how it affects SQ.

hSounds says he went with NOS Winged C but doesn't mention maker.  Also, the Tungsol Black Plate, which he adds a 'NJ'. is that a reference to NewJersey? I'm in the UK, so not au fe(?) with US terminology. $300 for a single 6550 doesn't seem 'cheap' to me, as @pinwa seems to think - but he may be a millionaire!

@tomic601 May I ask why you change the 6550 at just 2k hrs? What part does the 6550 play in the power supply? Is it THAT important, as these tubes ain't cheap (lookin at £240 here for a pair of Winged C, which, I admit, is cheaper than the $300 each he paid for one there. Ohh, and 6k hrs on it?!? Maan, you're WAAAY over the top limit. Replace ASAP and you'll be blown away by the improvement new tubes will bring.

@romad - If you can't stretch to a 28SE, go for the vanilla 28. Don't bother with a 27 or anything earlier, especially things like LS15/16. save your money and wait for the SE IMO.

Here's a link to a REALLY useful site which gives lots of info about most ARC gear - https://www.arcdb.ws/model/LS28

LS28SE introduced in 2017 at $10k, so should be well within your budget, so just wait until one appears.

daveteauk

... May I ask why you change the 6550 at just 2k hrs? What part does the 6550 play in the power supply? ...

The 6550 is critical to the power supply and 2,000 to 2,500 hours is about all you can expect from it, and least in my Ref5SE and Ref Phono 2SE.

@cleeds - thanks, but what exactly is 'critical'? What part does it play - my Ref3 seems to use SS rectification, so is the 6550 the supply voltage for the 6H30 in the PS, or does it do something else? 2000hrs seems a very very low figure for replacement - what do you experience, in SQ, after that time?

daveteauk

... what exactly is 'critical'? What part does it play... 2000hrs seems a very very low figure for replacement - what do you experience, in SQ, after that time ...

The 6550 tube in ARC Ref5/Ref 6/Ref phono is in the power supply. It will sonically degrade after a few thousand hours, and can fail outright before 3,000 hours, ime. You really don't want that to happen. If the cost or frequency of replacing vacuum tubes is a great concern for you, it's likely that ARC Ref preamps aren't your best choice.

@cleeds is correct, we both own the same 2 ARC components that utilize the 6550 in the power supply. Im not in front of my manual but my memory is the ARC recommendation for change interval on the 6550 is 2K hours. i change the 6550 religiously. My comment about NOS USA New Jersey Tung Sol blackplate was very specific as i worked w Andy at Vintage tube services in Michigan USA to tease out the best 6550 for the 5se AND importantly my system and tastes. i know they are “ expensive “… But not really when considering a Koetsu Urushi at $6k has about a 1,200 life…. $ or ¥ or € or £ is all relative…. Frankly a very reliable supplier of the critical 6550 is ARC themselves…stringent grading and burn in and excellent packaging. i keep 2 on hand as my phono use same.

@daveteauk I am not sure how you reached the conclusion i’ve not changed the 6H30’s. 

Best to all in music….

PS this morning i’m listening to a nice system w 20 NOS tubes in the LP playback chain including 5 x Mazda in the Phono, 4 x Orange Globes in the Line… and mostly Mullards in a not so stock… 1961 MC-240… life is fun….

Tomic601- that‘s awesome!

I get ARC select tubes from Upscale Audio.  They sound good.  I have been changing the 6550WE at about 1500 hours and the 6H30pi tubes at 3200 hours.  I notice a nice uptick in the sound at that point.  Using a Ref 5SE and Ref 2SE Phono.  I stocked up on tubes in 2020.  I noticed today tube prices are double what I paid 4 years ago- and I need to restock again soon.  

Got my first ARC preamp in 1988, a used SP-6b that I then had modified with upgraded components.  Used it for 14 years.  Got an SP-15 that I used for 18 years.  I sent it in for refurbishment by ARC in 2004.  And now the Ref 5SE/Ref 2 SE phono.  Good stuff.  Love having a remote control now that I am old and decrepit.  

@daveteauk

Audio Research preamps warm up profiles have changed substantially over the different models. I have not heard a Reference 3. But I have lived with a Ref 5SE and 6SE for a long time as well as a pre-REF one.

The warm up profile of a REF 5SE is that it goes through a big jump up in fidelity after about ten to fifteen minutes of music going through it. Turning it on an hour in advance does not change this. The improvement is very abrupt and happens over five or ten seconds. I had never heard such a thing before. I went to a forum and found a long discussion about this exact phenomenon. This changed completely with the REF 6. There is nearly no warm up period. The sound makes a very small improvement in the first few minutes and is then stable.

I have had four different REF 160 amps in my system for extended times. There is very little change in sound once the amp is turned on. My solid state Pass 350 actually had a longer warm up period. So, each component has a unique warm up characteristic.

I have found the sound profile as suggested by ARC is stable within the tube life recommended. I have found no reason to change tubes early.

While tube rolling is something fun to do with a number of brands of components. I do not do it with Audio Research. The components are exactly tuned for a very specific sound and changing tube brands would compromise that sound quality.

@tonywinga Right on man ! i was a CJ guy until i wasn’t…. I bought Brooks Berdan  “ museum “ SP-6 C from Sheila…. no remote… i resemble OLD… also…

I will look into the Pi series tubes…. i wish Modjeski was still around screening and grading tubes… his washout rates hit 90%. RIP RM

long may our beloved ARC gear run.

@ghdprentice i agree… after the long torture laden big capacitor bank breakin on initial purchase of the 5se, she comes on song for me at about a long 33 album side. I would suggest some of what others may perceive as longer might be IC cable dialectric forming…this is largely eliminated w use of a patented DBS cable… 

i realize upon reread my comment about CJ could be taken wrong… i hold anything they make or made in high esteem 

I have an SP20 that’s really quite nice.
Sounds great, comes with a very good

phono section and high quality headphone 

amp as well. I think they can be found for 

around $4,500. Highly recommend looking 

at the SP20.

I would be scared to death to buy a used piece of tube equipment. It's very very difficult to get it serviced and then once they have it and because talent to deal with tube gear is very very limited you may wait months to get it back.  Not sure about the health of audio research financially. I looked at the reference 10 but that was very expensive but I liked the separate power box.  But they do use lots of tubes and they run the tubes very hard from what I hear. Not the best piece of equipment for a home theatre integration which is what I wanted. Although, I just use the AV processor during the day for listening on a centre channel with surrounds and bypass need to turn on the tube pre-amplifier I have until at night so Tube use may not be as bad as I originally thought it might be. Plus I invested in nos tubes with the hope that they will last forever. For example jj tubes Will likely go bad very quickly and then they begin to crackle and then you gotta figure out which one is bad so transitioning to NOS tubes may be good for audio research gear although I don't know.

If it all possible especially for preamplifier I would stretch to buy something new. Especially tube gear. McIntosh solid state is a good used but tubes again I would lean toward buying new if it all possible saving a few thousand dollars in the longer run may not be a worthwhile thing to do and will always weigh upon your soul.

I bought a tube amplifier new and thankfully the dealer was incredibly accommodative because it had issues that were resolved and I'm not sure used gear would've afforded the same level of service. Although the dealer was very good so if you're gonna buy something used go through a dealer. 

I had a LS28 for about a year. Fantastic preamp. Upgraded to a Ref6.  Substantial improvement.  At your budget I would go for the LS28SE or Ref5SE.  The Refs are just better and for a reason.  

Romad,

There is a used LS28 SE up for sale right now here on Audiogon for $6,500, but willing to accept offers. It was upgraded to the SE version by the factory less than a year ago, and has a new compliment of tubes and upgraded caps. Condition 9 out of 10, seller has a 100% satisfaction rate.....seems like a really good deal, and probably will not last very long

I was using my MSB DAC direct to the amp without a separate preamp.  My local dealer loaned me an ARC LS28SE to try.  It was only marginally better than the DAC direct, not even close to worth the money for it.  But I could hear some potential.  So I put in an ARC REF6.  That was a substantial improvement over the LS28SE and it is happily in my system.  Stretch your budget a little and go for the REF6 over the LS28SE.  They can be had on occasion for $7K or so.  

Don’t listen to the people saying it’s built like a tank or it’ll never need service or don’t worry about the tube life etc

Trust me, keep up with the tube life, monitor.  Change as recommended by the factory.  
 

Dont ask how I know. 
 

There was a significant jump in sound quality from the LS 27 to the Ref 5SE in my system. It uses 5 6H30s and the 6550, which isn't that many. 

+1 on not worrying about service. Most will never need service, they are built to last a lifetime and Audio Research prides itself on servicing older models and having an extensive parts stockroom. Should you keep it for decades, then any competent electrical repair can update the caps.

Well o so fast.  As a repair facility, we have had 5 ARC older products in the room for repair recently.  BUT they can be repaired and also upgraded to improve the sound so that I would agree with.

Happy Listening.

@romad I think you are on the right track for an LS27.  I had an LS26 before I got my LS27 and that was a significant improvement in SQ as well as much better aesthetics.  

I took quite a journey in the ARC line stage lineup and really liked the LS27 with the PH8 but I knew I could never stop thinking about the REF lineup. It was def a jump when I went to the REF 5 and REF 2 but I felt the LS27 was a better value for the SQ it offers. They don’t show up that often and if you get a good price I think you are guaranteed to get your money back if you also ever choose to move to the REF line. If you do move to the REF line, you can’t beat a REF 6 for their current ASP. They are not much more than the 5SE and usually a few thousand less compared to the 6SE.

Good luck!

I currently have a Ref 6 SE and have had most of their preamp products since the LS2 was introduced. My favourite is still the LS5 mkII. It’s still the best of the bunch. Hard to find though.

Buy once and cry once . @ghdprentice he knows his ARC stuff. You might get a good deal off of hifishark . Things happen in life and toys have to go . Some buyers just don't want to get low balled by the dealer .