??? Are Manufacturers Killing Our Hobby ???

??? Why do you start all your threads with question marks ???

@dill ??? WTH does it matter to you HTF I start my threads ???

To your question, no, the freedom to engage in commerce is not killing the hobby of home audio.

No worries, the law of supply and demand and the need for manufacturers to make a profit will keep it sorted out.

No manufacturers are not the ones killing the space. It is people who just engage in religious fervour of just buying things are what is killing this space. The manufacturers are just making stuff because people want those things more often than not even if they're useless, needless or downright have zero upside.

We shouldn't go blaming manufacturers. Portable audio space is thriving and that's because no one is approaching things there with mystique that is subscribed to by many in this space

It’s nice as a consumer to have choice.  The obvious answer to the thread question is that it’s the lack of interest in traditional, as opposed to portable, audio, that’s the problem.  People just don’t want to sit and listen to music in the home

Its illogical to blame the manufacturers, too much choice is a bad thing!  Besides, the consumer always has the last say, if demand lacking manufacturer has to adapt or go out of business, if there is an issue its lack of demand. Finally, why should I care if the masses support or don't support high end audio, this is and has always been a niche hobby.

"@dill ??? WTH does it matter to you HTF I start my threads ???"

       It doesn't matter to me, just wondering why ... 

Actually this is the best time to be audiophile, so many choices , new or used. No manufacturers will kill this hobby. This hobby is ALIVe and Kicking. At axpona this year , so many attendees.

Not at all, quite the opposite...great having so much gear at so many prices available, makes this hobby stronger...

@jayctoy out of curiosity, what were the demographics of those attendees? 

Simao, I see different ages 40 , 50 , 60 to 80. And some younger below forty as well. Male and female., From different countries as well. This is the biggest attendees even pre pandemic, I think. This year the parking lots are full even across the next building.

Agreed, it's a great time to be an audiophile. The selection of highend equipment, both new and used, has never been better in my opinion.

Too many vendors is only a problem for the ones who do not survive. 

"I had struck me recently that there is a GLUTTONY of equipment manufacturers these days & that,if not careful,the unchecked saturation of every corner of our hobby could bring about the demise of the entire industry."

This is another one of those threads that begin with a false premise as an attempt to stir the pot.  "Gluttony" is probably the wrong word since it mostly applies to the consumption side, not the supply side.  The premise then advances into fear-mongering, i.e., "the unchecked saturation...bring about the demise of the entire industry."  It sounds like what we hear from the news these days, "some are predicting...the sky is falling." 

@mahler123 +1!

Why, I as a lad remember when there were many audio stores in my city. This was back in the 60's and 70's. No one was complaining about too many vendors then.

This is akin to asking whether too many musicians and musical genres are harming the hobby of listening to music. As for whether I agree with the opinion that live music isn't about the music but all about the show being put on by the artist, I'll politely disagree on that.

1. I welcome the fact that there is a plethora of choices in the "hi-fi" market that allow people to get into the hobby these days without a huge investment and possibly buyer's remorse. Sure we can denigrate someone for listening to music on a sound-bar but I'm not going to denigrate someone for listening to music on a pair of wireless speakers. If that floats their boat...great. Allowing people to upgrade as they get into the hobby is what it's all about. I recall going on group rides, and there was always one Dr/Lawyer/Dentist in the group that would belittle someone showing up with the "improper" cycling kit or an old steel bike and not take them seriously because said "serious cyclist" was riding a top of the line carbon fiber Pinerallo or Colnago w/ Campy Super Record. 

2. I enjoy listening to music and have various ways to do it with my mid-fi system I've upgraded over the last few years. I do enjoy exposing friends and family to what music can sound like on a decent, not expensive setup compared to their Google Home/Sonos speakers. But many aren't hard-core music listeners to begin with. I have a handful of friends who actively collect records, and their set-ups are modest at best. None have a high-end dedicated streamer or DAC, let alone a CD player.  

3. The decline of hi-fi stores has been happening over decades so it's not a sudden thing, and honestly, I don't have the time or energy to drive across state or out of state to demo gear. What we have now is a "hi-fi" ecosystem that people can get into with nominal effort and work their way up and search the world wide interwebs for manufacturers they've never heard of or wouldn't have normal access to where they live. If anything, I'd say the plethora of choices actually encourages people to really start dedicating time to listening to music as a serious hobby and not audible wallpaper. 

@mitch2 +1

@dill +1 One wonders why you got a hair-trigger, angry reply from OP. 

I think that if high end manufacturers placed more emphasis on making entry level products that blow your hair back it might garner more enthusiasm for the hobby. The audio tags also cater too much to the stuff that’s out of reach for most of us so that doesn’t help either. Just spitballing here.

If the manufacturers have covered all the bases, why can I not find a SS preamp with the versatility of the $800 Schitt Kara and the $7900 Coda 07x, but with a price in between those two and SQ approaching the latter? (This for backup system -- LS28SE controls the main setup).

As for the threat of overabundant choice: I know how this problem works at, say, Madame Romaine de Lyon with its 100+ different omelettes, and maybe there are too many hard-to-audition speakers for anyone to make a fully informed choice, but there's no surplus of preamps, be they tube or SS or hybrid. Likely because so many now use integrateds or run straight out from streamer/dac units.

@mwinkc Because I already had a run in with 1 Karen yesterday before @dill ..WTH does it matter to anyone if I want to start my threads with ???......
@johnnybwood +1...

SoyBoys are everywhere. Anyone has a right to start a thread the way they want to unless it violates forums rules. So many speech cops in our lives today. Just idiots 

When folks can't afford to buy a house or a new car, a nice hifi is really not on the radar at all.

@travelinjack 

 Precisely. If one needs to be mobile enough to live in a car, then a state of the art stereo system is just a stupid waste of money. 

Since Covid, there have been many new audio manufacturers that build expensive equipment that doesn’t sound any better than what is currently out there. We heard $35k speakers at an audio show that didn’t sound any better than my small revels in my 2nd/3rd systems which are 1/17 the cost. I see this more and more.

But I also see legacy audiophile manufacturers making cheaper gear that sounds great. There are some new audiophile manufacturers that build expensive equipment (hundreds of thousands of $$$) that could be called the best of the best. I saw a few million $$$ systems in the last few audio shows that sounded fantastic.

Its great to have choices but not every manufacturer will make it so if you buy equipment from a new boutique company, you might not have support in the future and will have a hard time selling down the road. For example, I had the top of the line Classe monoblocks and when they were in business and then out of business, I got nervous since the amps had a lot of newer technology in them, I sold them at a much reduced discount because the new buyer knew of any future risks, and the amps sounded fantastic 

"Because I already had a run in with 1 Karen yesterday before @dill ..WTH does it matter to anyone if I want to start my threads with ???......"

Like I said before, it does not matter to me, just curious and now curious as why you won’t answer the question.

Yes,  consolidation and cost cutting has resutled in poor customer service.  Most of the "audio" stores have converted to home automation stores which makes it difficult to shop, compare, and get local service,

I'm very happy with the sound of the budget gear released the past 5-10 years, some great sound for little money...

OP uses question marks because there is a question being proposed. Why is this a forum "thing" at all ????????

?????????????????????????????????????????

@dill Truthfully, I was wondering the same thing. But I guess it does draw attention to the idea that a question is being posed. 

This thread smacks of trolling!!  How can having too many choices ever be a ba thing?  As others have said.  The free market will sort it out.   Manufacturers who adapt to the listening habits of the populace will still thrive.   Look how Focal and Sennheiser have begun manufacturing ear buds.  Manufacturers are building streamers into their DAC's.  The shrewd manufacturing entities will adapt and survive!!  Meanwhile, the consumer is being given plenty of choice.  I see no downside!!

I think it's near impossible to fully understand all the moving parts and motivations of all the entities.  People love to think they can analyze these things away but nobody knows all.  But can't we let people be themselves without criticizing every little thing?  I mean there are nested criticisms here.  lol  Which seems to usually be the case.  I like when people go out of bounds respectfully.  It's not the same ole and is mind expanding.  You never know what other's open thoughts are gonna give you ideas you would have never arrived at otherwise.  Not sure that works grammatically but there it is.  lol  Take Care Alll!

Hello Freediver, your query got my "research juices" flowing.  Primarily I had to ask myself, "Hmmm, just how many audio equipment manufacturers are there currently?  I went to a data source 9Boldthat I've used previously to get an estimate.  Here's what BoldData estimates currently. Worldwide there are (I've rounded their figures) approximately 48,600 audio equipment manufacturers.  China leads with 8,000 followed by India with 7400 and U.S. third at 5545.  These 3 countries hold 42% of the global market with total sales at about $16.3 billion.  Another source is "Mordor Intelligence" with forecasts total sales in this market to reach $23 billion by 2030.  Those figures would indicate that the apparent "proliferation" of manufacturers is not hurting the A.E market buy contributing to its growth.  Of course, there is a wide range of quality and price points produced within those 48,600 A.E manufacturers necessary to penetrate the diverse global customer base.  I was most enlightened after my brief research of this subject. Thanks for your question.

Enjoy the music.

Typo correction chalk it up to my all thumbs typing. Primary data source should read "BoldData" not "9Bold".  Opps, My bad

It doesn't bother me I like looking at new gear and like 98% of manufacturers don't really interest me anyway. 

@bbarten I appreciate your response to those who accuse me of trolling..I was simply making an observation that occured to me as I considered several threads seeking recommendations on speakers,amplifiers or cables & the barrage of choices they elicited...
 @vetsc5 very interesting data..I had no idea anything in our hobby was made in India,I don't recall seeing anything recommended in these forums..I wonder what percentage of all that gear is actually home audio gear or if that data also includes portable & mobile gear...
@truebluephil ​​& @bolong +1.....
To those who reply my thread "smacks of trolling" you really boil my blood & I would love to send you a few choice words to reiterate that but I'll just chalk it up to the fact your probably Karen HOA Presidents in your community & leave it at that...

@freediver Keep on keepin' on brother!  

?????I think all sentences should start like this?????

????Why not????

It's pretty common in Spain to use question marks at the start and end of a question. Same goes for Catalan, sometimes in French and a few others invert the question mark and that's where I draw the line. Who the hell inverts a question mark¿

?All the best¿
Nonoise

Hey there Freediver, as you I was also not aware of audio equipment made in India.  The market size just in that country alone approaches $1billion and the target audience is primarily Indian Gen Z'ers. High volume pieces are headphones, earbuds, mini-speakers and soundbars.  Home theater is also a rapidly growing segment in India.  The major Indian manufacturers are, in alphabetical order, Ahuja, Boat, Boult and Mivi.  All of the companies design and manufacture their items at India based facilities.  With the worlds largest population and the aforementioned $1 billion sales volume its not surprising we have not yet seen these products outside of India.  But I suspect that the dynamics of our global economy will change that sooner than later.

Enjoy the music.

Gluttony? no it's called market saturation or proliferation that leads to consolidation. See that happening now. 

@deep_333 lol I know the speaker in the image and it sounded worse during the demo but the person running the demo was trying to convince me that unrefined presentation to treble with a low of graininess is fidelity. And I had to look it up and found the same frequency response and thought of this looks better that that sounded. I guess the untreated space for the demo even made it worse

It's pretty common in Spain to use question marks at the start and end of a question. Same goes for Catalan,

??????I did not know that??????

@immatthewj that college degree you spents tens of thousands of $ on didn't teach you much did it ???
You should have started the sentence with a .... or !!!,not a ??? as you made a statement,not ask a question........

????Did I spend tens of thousands of dollars for a college degree?????

????I did not know that either?????

The problem is not an interest by young people. It's the cost of health insurance, Dental costs, tuition costs, that keep them home with mom and dad. Costs of apartments, rental, or buying, food costs doubled, all  have gone way high with few wage increases. No money for an expensive hobby. If cost of living lowers, buying increases.