Another post about a streamer upgrade

Good question. It looks like you have a carefully chosen system. Looks nice as well. 
 

Typically I would immediately say, save up for an Aurrender N200. But I think, given your other equipment the Innuos Pulse Mini would fit right in. So unless you are planning on upgrading your entire system over the next few years, then it sounds like your thinking is pretty sound. I am sure some others will come up, with a couple other choices in that price range.

You don't have to jump so far up the Aurender line.  The N150 would be entry point if you are shopping based on cost to an upper level streamer brand.  I think if you shop around, you will find a dealer willing to discount.  I suggest shopping used for streamers that retail in the 2 to 3 range for a step up.  Look at The Music Room or hear on Audiogon for great products in your price range.  Be sure to find an interface that you like.  If you upgrade, please let us know the type of sonic differences you notice, if any.  Thanks.  

Definitely upgrade to something better if you are willing to invest. There are several highly praised products in the similar price range to IP mini, such as Volumio Primo / Rivo with built-in upsampling and EQ and a used Rose RS250A. The Ifi ZS has been reliable for me in the past. I’ve used MConnect for Quboz with minimal issues. However, I agree with your point about the app’s flow, which can be somewhat annoying at times.

You are right on focussing on the user interface and InnuOS at your price point is the obvious choice

Bryston BDP-2 with BDP3 sound board over on USA for less than $1K.   The Manic Moose interface certainly spartan but the sound quality is up there. Unit has lots of capabilities as well.  It even control a 3rd party DVD/CD player via USB.

Both Innuos Pulse and Aurender N150 would complement well with your BP DAC. They both offers well designed streamers with robust app interface, make sure you use wired Ethernet connection from router or modem. 

Have you considered Eversolo? I have a DMP A6 with LPS upgrade running into ARCAM 850 and out to Wharfedale Linton Heritage Anniversary speakers. I tried the Rose RS 250A and found the user interface clunky and counterintuitive, although the sound from the stock DAC was good in my system. The DMP A6 is user friendly and I am able to access the over 5,000 cds and lps  that I have digitized and transferred to its internal hard drive. I know that Eversolo has higher end streamers as well, but the DMP A6 is a good fit for my budget and system.

IMO the two most important factors in sound quality with regard to streaming has been the quality of the external DAC I have used and the quality of the original recording being streamed. For instance, I have had Benchmark, Schiit, Pro-Ject, iFi and Denafrips external DACs. I have also tried internal DACs with streamers. I have tried multiple streaming services from Spotify, Apple, Tidal, Qobuz and Pandora. The quality of the recording and quality of the file along with the best DAC has produced the best sound. I have also tried better power supply like Teddy Pardo and others. I have been tempted to jump up to more expensive streamers but the price has been far to high and I don’t want to change them out every 3 years.

The new node 130 with an external LPS upgrade is quite good for streaming only and well under your budget. The BluOS app is excellent as well. Good luck !

@2psyop 

IMO the two most important factors in sound quality with regard to streaming has been the quality of the external DAC I have used and the quality of the original recording being streamed. 

This strikes me as correct. Many people tout expensive streamers but what is really driving that? In other words, I'd like to know if those who advocate for more expensive streamers (such as @ghdprentice ) did careful streamer vs. streamer tests so that they were certain that the differences they heard were due to the streamer alone and not, e.g., to other factors such as the ones mentioned by @2psyop. 

I posed this question -- roughly, "Is it the streamer or the DAC that makes the greatest sound quality difference?" -- and some very experienced members such as @jjss49 testified (if I remember correctly) that the streamer does make a difference but that is minimal compared to getting a good DAC. For both streamer and DAC, an external power supply also helps more than the differences delivered by the streamer alone.

Of course, the above is just about sound quality, not about interface, company reliability, etc.

Cambridge Audio CXN 60 fits your budget and should be an upgrade.  It is great with Internet Radio and Chromecast/AirPlay.

Hello If using the pulse mini, for sure upgrade to get the linear power supply 

a no brainer sounds much better still and use good quality after market power cords .  Thungs left out but essential , most router- modem combos are 12 v just look on them or bottom or router , the wall wart is Horribly noisy 

on Audiogon  Linear Tube Audio - exceptional LPS power supply $50 off $700 use a decent power cord ,the $200 Pangea sig mk2 awg14 is a excellent low cost power cord ,I even use the synergistic purple fuse 20 mm 5 amp ,slow blow fuse 

all these little things add up. Wall warts for any gear is an Audio sin they are noise and grunge .

is a great upgrade , I even upgraded the router modem combo to a Motorola 8702 

that has docsis 3.1meaning much faster processor, and much bigger buffer 

it works great, even streaming WiFi with TV better picture, and is 12v  around 4 amps , the LTA  LPS goes up to 8 amp , and can be ordered up to 19 v.

I suspect that there should be quite a few used Innuoss  pulse mini available Because if you were impressed as I was, you saved up and just got the PULSE and traded in the mini. 

Thanks for all the suggestions 

there actually aren’t a lot of pulse minis second hand … I think they get snatched up pretty quickly.  There was a Pulse (non mini) for sale on one of the sites recently at a great price but it went fast. 
I’m now considering an N150 or a Pulse Mini unless I see something used from higher up the line.

but with a budget of less than $2k, it’s going to be tricky. 
I haven't really considered the Eversolo … perhaps I should 

I’m not a fan of huge screens and again, the app is of critical importance to me.

I’m also considering the Cambridge but I think the purpose built environment of Innuos or Aurender is a better move 

“I think the purpose built environment of Innuos or Aurender is a better move ”

@j_andrews 

Unequivocally, Yes! 

There’s a N150 being offered where I live so I could avoid shipping… looks like it may not have been babied but … then again, neither have I  

Does anyone have a “sense” on what’s the better app for liner notes and for searching classical music ? Conductor or Sense ? I listen to a lot of styles of music but spend a good bit of time with chamber music and jazz.

Currently I only use Qobuz but as I mentioned the JPLAY portal does a pretty decent job of distilling whatever info it has available to it.

Id like to be able to search by composer as well as performer and also focus down to particular record labels .. and seeing the personnel on a particular recording date is always welcome.  

Look for a used Aurender N200 (can be found for about $4,500 or so) or a used Innuous Zen MKIII (around $2,300) or a Zenith MKIII (around $4,500)......those would be nice upgrades IMO

@j_andrews  you are correct about the unavailability of the Pulse mini. Two weeks ago, I traded mine in for the Pulse. Called up my dealer if he still had it, and he laughed and said yeah, no. sorry about my incredulous assumptions. I went from Marantz HEOS To the Innuos, the difference was startling And that was before getting the accompanied linear power supply. hopefully you will be able to step up to a nice streamer to see what all the excitement is about.

If you can stretch a little this Innuos Zen is nice, and you don’t need to upgrade to a linear power supply cause it already has one,  Bonus is you can load any of your prized CDs right into it.

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650056614-innuos-zen-mk-3/

Roon will set you free. You can get cheaper, effective streamer options -e.g., iFi Zen, Pro-ject S2 (ultra), Wiim, Raspberry pi, Volumio Rivo, primare rp5, etc. - if you’re not being sold on somebody else’s software (Aurender, Auralic, Lumin, Innuos, etc.).  That also frees you up for an extraordinary number of DAC options.  

@j_andrews I am an authorized Aurender dealer and agree with some of the others. Where I typically will say the N200 is the sweet spot of the Aurender line, the N150 is no slouch and would fit very well with the components you list in your virtual system. One thing I would caution you about, however, is that Aurender warranties are non-transferrable. This is very important to note as they are essentially computers, and as we all know, despite a high level of stability, computers run into problems from time to time. Aurender support is impeccable for those who are covered under warranty. It is still great even those who are not, but owners should be prepared to pay for repairs.

I have a few thoughts that I'll also PM you about now.

@2psyop and ​​​​@hilde45 I agree - emphasis on the streamer to improve sound quality without even identifying what sound quality “issue” there is, is an inefficient place to exercise one’s upgrade-itis.

If the interest is in a seamless user interface, it would be most future-proof to start educating oneself on how straightforward some of the LINUX-based freeware OS’s can be run on a self-assembled system. When a separate DAC is in play, there seems a lot less left for the transport computer to make magic of ;)

Ready-made streamers are great if you can (1) afford and justify them and (2) can try the app out firsthand, preferably in your system, before committing. Paying for a streamer app-unused is not something I’d advocate to someone with specific criteria for how it would preferably run.

“Many people tout expensive streamers but what is really driving that?”

@hilde45
Perhaps a pursuit for no-comprising performance at source. What you should be asking in IMHO, Is your rest of the system is up to snuff to reveal improvements by a well designed streamer or DAC.

The argument “Is it the streamer or the DAC that makes the greatest sound quality difference” is getting quite old. You won’t insert a mediocre preamp ahead of high performance amp and vice versa, right?

The quality of recordings issue is not unique to streaming services. We have endured and experienced these inconsistencies with physical media all along. There are plenty of great sounding recordings available to enjoy streaming at very highest level. One can easily put to rest anxieties such as won’t or can’t possibly make a difference by auditioning a high quality streamer or DAC in your system. Is your rest of the system up to snuff…..only you can answer this question.

@lalitk Excellent stance.

The system is only as good as the weakest link in the chain. But people’s values and priorities are personal and differ case by case. Whether someone finds value in investing to improve said weak links is dependent on what the person is attempting to achieve and how important or valuable it is for them to accomplish their goal. 

An audiophile mentor of mine always says, “It’s about the journey, not the destination.”  While there’s always room for improvement, enjoy where you are now and learn everything you can every step of the way. 

Not looking to pot-stir. Just reinstating what general science tells us.

The fallacy of the “weak link” remains a fallacy until there is hard evidence of its existence. That’s what I meant by individuals who seek improvement in various “links” without perhaps understanding how they work and how swapping components may change them. In this (OP) case, a perceived sonic shortcoming was not even described. Based on the OP, a preferable software package x app is what should be the focus of this thread.

However, I am curious why after quite a few years there still seems to be no consumer preference research done in a statistically robust way to demonstrate any difference in how digital data are streamed in a music playback system. 

Bear in mind that’s not me saying a difference couldn’t exist. But where such a difference should not be perceptible to human hearing based on all available (rigorous) info at hand, it seems like a good place to do a consumer preference study, one that would hold up analytically. It would say a lot, but admittedly difference is a two-way street (it can exist or not), and perhaps that’s the scary thing for designers.

All the data centers that house streaming services’ files - how much is the music data degrade before individuals’ in-home systems, by lack of warehouse-scale LPS’s, proper cabling, dedicated processors, etc.? 

Again, I’m not saying more expensive streamers can’t be better-sounding. I’m just saying I have never been able to understand the logic for how they offer higher fidelity, in the absence of demonstrated perceptible difference (accounts of satisfied buyer feedback doesn’t count for this in any industry).

If we don’t query ourselves about what we want out of such toys as music playback systems, then our approach will not be question-driven problem-solving. To me, that sounds like a life about a journey that could get unnecessarily expensive and one in which enough might never be enough. 😉

@benanders

You are simply speaking from a lack of experience and a strong unfounded sense of skepticism.

Many of us here have decades of experience in high end audio and have constantly listened to the digital technology as it has developed over the the last thirty plus years. I have listened to streamers on PCs… optimizing them, MacBooks… running on batteries, inexpensive streamers, $3K, $5K, $10K, $13K, and $22K streamers. The thing that absolutely stands out is the sound quality differences… like night and day.

For most of us here our primary concern is sound quality and the big deal is the sound quality of different streamers. While their control apps are a question of convenience. Most get the job done and once learned they are not the primary function.

Sorry you cannot understand the logic. 

Again, I’m not saying more expensive streamers can’t be better-sounding. I’m just saying I have never been able to understand the logic for how they offer higher fidelity, in the absence of demonstrated perceptible difference (accounts of satisfied buyer feedback doesn’t count for this in any industry).

@benanders may I recommend you research various design and implementation of streamers and DACs. How each design influences the final product. I mean a thorough research from power supply and inputs to outputs and everything in between. If you’re sitting around twiddling your thumbs and expecting the community in this forum to present their arguments to you trying to prove streamers and cd transports make a difference, you will be wasting everyone’s and your time and effort.

@2psyop and ​​​​@hilde45 I agree - emphasis on the streamer to improve sound quality without even identifying what sound quality “issue” there is, is an inefficient place to exercise one’s upgrade-itis.

Right. That's the point. It's not -- @lalitk  -- a lack of desire for the best performance or being discriminating. Rather, what I've noticed is that people often jump to a "better" product without doing due diligence about where the improvement is needed. Without really taking the time to discern whether a streamer is the answer, I suspect that *some* people just go for product first and then justify it later. And dealers love to affirm that kind of move because they provide the customer with a good feeling (and confirmation bias).

I'm not saying that you did that or that anyone else here did it, but I suspect that doing the hard work of really testing things and eliminating variable is time consuming and onerous. And not as fun.

@audphile1 thanks, indeed the source of my skepticism over broad applicability of the stance that greater cost = greater quality: there’s no robust study to support this, just many anecdotes and opinions. That will not change until design schematics / fabrication costs vs. fabrication / transportation costs are made available for low end to high end streamers. Until then, no evidence of streamer quality scaling linearly, or otherwise, with price.

Now to be extra clear, again, that’s not me saying “absence of evidence [of a difference in sound between streamers] = evidence of absence [of said difference in sound between streamers].” Anyone who suggests that is as unscientifically anchored as one who touts an opinion as evidence.

@ghdprentice thanks, conversely, I’m not sure you understand what “logic” would be in this case. I’m not looking to offend but rather clarify. Logic would have your reasoning based on evidential support, something that can be replicated by others. IOW, describe the process, not the pattern. The pattern is spend more and more and more money, hear more and more and more difference. Never mind the tangle from bias - the assumption most other folks will, too, is the issue. Your anecdotal experiences, numerous and over years, are still not robust enough to constitute the next guy’s predictable experience should that person try to replicate them. Consequently, your suggestion that your impressions are transferable is not particularly sound (pun!), but it’s an Internet forum so type as ya like. I don’t need to elaborate on how the differences between personal experiences and the opinions they help form cannot reliably serve the same purposes as results from a controlled investigation free of bias. But given the latter, it would take just one controlled listener preference study (a real one), similar to those done to greater / lesser extent in amps and speakers. If such an investigation showed linear scaling of preference for streamer brand/model based on unit retail price, the relative lack of testable difference in how digital transports work with what’s downstream of them would quickly become a less relevant hole in general knowledge, and the popular stance on the matter would be supported by more than anecdotal opinion. 
Opinions are fine for individuals, but their transferability to other individuals and situations are simply not predictable. YMMV being the four magic letters when sharing about effects on others’ systems you aren’t familiar with, but of course, that is just my opinion, man ;)

“I suspect that doing the hard work of really testing things and eliminating variable is time consuming and onerous. And not as fun.”

@hilde45 

Agreed on process being time consuming and requiring considerable efforts but that’s what makes this hobby so much fun. My current system is the culmination of lot of trials and tribulations over last 7 plus years. 

Good luck with your journey! 

HifiNews does a good job of measuring differences accross streamers, focusing primarily on jitter.  Of course, different dacs do a better - or worse - job than others of handling jitter from a streamer, and they show that as well. 

@benanders I’m totally cool with your stance on this.
Let’s not highjack this thread. 
Enjoy the music!

Just stepping in for my two cents on the issue.

I was streaming (just AppleMusic) from a computer through an ifi iDSD to my integrated tube amp on my main system. I had a Bluenote X on my secondary system. I got a T+A 200 Dac mostly in trade and then went for the Aurender N200.

Now the Dac and the Aurender is essentially $12k of equipment. I think the biggest thing the OP needs to think about is how resolving his system is. The OP doesn’t say what else he has in his system (amp/preamp/speakers/dac etc).

My previous set up was pretty good even using a computer as the source. The difference with the $12k of equipment isn’t that big. Now there is some break in and I can hear that the sound is more open and seems to be improving a bit as it is breaking in but I’m not sure I would do this upgrade again for the money. Maybe my system is good but not good enough to justify the new units. Sometimes being happy with what you got is the best bet.

There are plenty of midlevel streamers including Innuos (which @soix recommends) and others that will probably make the OP very happy.

@dz13 that is some great feedback and fruit for thought. 

I do think the OP's feelings about which brands to upgrade to are good thinking. After doing a little research and listening to a couple I feel an Innous will be my next step up. I've only been into digital streaming maybe 2 1/2 to 3 years now. I came into this media thinking all digital transports would sound the same. Seemed logical at the time, it's only transferring a digital signal and any jitter should be easily dealt with by any newer decent dac. Yet in my personal subjective opinion this doesn't hold true. I've tried upwards of 10 different "budget" streamers searching for the best SQ on the cheap. Most of them in that range do sound similar to me when used as a transport only..but there are differences in my opinion. Either in sound quality, darkness of background, or soundstage and imaging. Subtle differences in the budget category. 

I'm familiar with the OP's Zen Stream. I've owned it twice now, both times giving it the boot due to the laggy and shaky software. The reason I went back to it a second time is I feel it has good SQ.. especially for the money. With LPS I liked it better than more expensive streamers I've tried. One streamer I've liked just as much or actually more is the Primare Prisma. I picked one up second hand and have been very happy with it. 5volt power supply that can be upgraded. I prefer Quboz as well and use Chromecast. I've used Chromecast in the past with my Cambridge CXN2, Arcam Sa30 & later with the ST60. I preferred the sound of the Prisma when using CC. Just my personal preference though, could be different for everyone. 

I only mention this because if it is just the software of the Zen Stream you would like to change then a Primare can help in that regard with Quboz, but also keep the type of sound quality you are use to. Maybe a side move with subtle differences but I do like using CC now. Prisma has set backs though like everything. No USB. Chromecast is topped at 24/96khz. I found that to be no issue. Actually instead of going bit perfect native I upsample everything to 24/176 with the Prisma. Just sounds better to me..I dk why. No software issues though. 

I've never tried an Eversolo or the Halo Red..a couple of the "budget/mid level" types that seem to get good reviews. I also think stepping up to the likes of Aurender or Innous, just to name a couple, will give you the upgrade that you are looking for. Or switching to Roon might be something you would like as well. Better functionality it seems...better than using the Zen Stream native app I'm sure. One thing that was already mentioned..make sure your Dac is up to par before buying a big dollar streamer. Unless you are looking at one with built-in dac. Good luck.  

As the conversation continues about quality streamers and whether it’s advisable, logical to upgrade it’s fair to ask how many dealers are posting because of the chance of a big sale. Let’s face it- many here can get stuck on the idea they have to upgrade, spend more money and the first salesman in line can get that sale.

I find the streamer can make a very big difference if you also have a great dac and overall system. I own the Tron Atlantic Sig dac and after hearing several streamers in my system priced from $1200 to $7900 I can confidently say streamers matter in high end systems. The improvement in sound quality does not take a back seat to any other upgrades I have made over the years. Again, my comments are based on having all pieces in your Hifi system of high quality including all cabling.

Even upgrading from an Innuos Zenith 3 to Pulsar was a very obvious increase in sound quality and overall system performance.  

Here’s another site that seems to do a decent job of evaluating streamers more objectively.  

To be clear, I’m not a pure objectivist by any stretch - after all , I’m primarily a tube and vinyl guy! - but I do think that in the digital realm, particularly before the conversion to analog, objective measures can tell you an awful lot about what’s going on.  

Full disclosure: I am highly skeptical of the claims made by the high $ server/streamer /DAC combos out there in the marketplace.  Which is why I’ve gone the following route:  (1) Roon with Quobuz; (2) Roon server: Small Green Computer w/4tb drive for burned CD collection; (3) Gold Note DS10 as streamer/dac in system #1; (4) Pro-ject S2 Ultra as streamer feeding Topping E70 in system#2; (5) Okto DAC8 w/RPi installed as streamer/DAC in system #3; and (6) iFi Zen Stream feeding iFi Zen Signature v.2 DAC in system #4.  I also use a Bluesound Node and Sonos Amp in two other non-audiophile systems.  The point is they all work seamlessly with Roon thru my home network; in all but one case, I’m using wifi without any problems.  Last point I’ll make is that I’ve seen alot of negative comments regarding the iFi app, but if you’re using Roon, you bypass that potential weakness.  

@mdalton yes nothing beats roon from the UI / UX and features standpoints.
However, one important note - with some streamers their proprietary UI/software forces the streamed files to take a certain path that involves extra processing such as caching (not buffering) and other tasks that might result in better sound compared to using the streamer as a Roon end point.
One example is Auralic Aries streamers. The Auralic Lightning DS sounded significantly better to me than Roon and I actually ended up pausing my Roon subscription. I had renewed it when I switched over to Lumin where I heard virtually no difference and the Lumin app was driving me crazy.

There are a lot of variables. The unfortunate truth in this hobby is that everything matters and as you go up the ladder it matters even more. Synergy is key though, so trying and listening for yourself to see what works in your system the best approach. 

@audphile1 

Hey, appreciate your perspective, but were you using a Mac Mini as your Roon Core?  Are you sure what you weren’t hearing wasn’t simply high jitter from your PC?  Check out the links I sent in earlier posts to see how high the levels of jitter are from a pc vs. a well-designed streamer.

“There are a lot of variables. The unfortunate truth in this hobby is that everything matters and as you go up the ladder it matters even more. Synergy is key though, so trying and listening for yourself to see what works in your system the best approach.”

@audphile1 Well said!

Assuming high quality analog components and DAC already in place and optimized, how digital bits delivered to your DAC plays a significant role. A well designed streamer elevates and recreates more intimacy with music.

Unless one had an opportunity to try a better streamer, you honestly don’t know what you’ve been missing all along!

@benanders

I’m glad you are curious. But we are not working on graduate degrees here (which btw I have). Those of us with lots of experience are trying to help those with less to effectively navigate this extremely complex landscape and avoid wasting enormous amount of time and money. 

@mdalton I was using mac mini as roon core only. Not a streamer. The comparison was done using auralic with lightning ds vs Auralic as roon end point.
There’s no jitter. Just different way of processing the stream by the Auralic.

@audphile1 

Thanks, very helpful, but not sure I understand your response.  I’m not highly technical, but my understanding is that a Roon core, even if not used as streamer, is essentially a digital transport, and therefore is virtually by definition a potential source of jitter.  Here’s another link to an evaluation of a Roon nucleus, showing it as a source of jitter, but substantially less than a pc.  Am I missing something here?

@mdalton no. The steamer is what is connected to the DAC.
The Mac Mini in my example is just a Roon core that sends the data feed to the streamer, via network. The streamer is connected to the DAC.
For the mac mini to be considered a streamer it would have to be connected to the DAC directly via USB without a dedicated streamer in between. Not sure where the gap is in this communication. The review you’re linking to talks about testing roon nucleus as a streamer via its USB out. But that’s not my configuration. 

@audphile1 

Again, I apologize for any confusion but isn’t the data stream from a Roon core to a streamer (or dac) a digital data stream?  And if it is, isn’t that a potential source of jitter?  You’re right that the link I included had a different setup from yours, but the point was that the data stream from the Nucleus included jitter, but at a substantially lower level than if a pc (e.g., a Mac Mini) had been used.  And that is completely consistent with a huge number of comments I’ve read from Roon users, and I believe Roon itself - that they hear a “substantial” improvement in sound quality between using Roon on a pc vs a dedicated core (e.g., Nucleus, or, in my case, a Small Green Computer). 

In summary, I was trying to (gently) suggest that perhaps your test between Auralic and Roon was a test where the Roon side was decidedly suboptimal.  No offense intended, and of course, I could be completely misguided.

Ok. Everything is a streamer - your ISP, your router, your mesh network if that’s what you’re using, your roon core and your streamer.
You’re 100% correct. And jitter exists between each of these communication points.

I hereby (gently) invalidate the test that I had conducted. 😂

I would also like to add a DAC, well At least the section that takes the input and streams that data to the DAC chip. At which point, once it reaches the analog section it ceases to be a streamer because it passes the analog signal to the output RCA or XLR that feed the amplifier. 

Oh one additional detail..,Auralic Aries G1 wasn’t hardwired to network.